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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Dear Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>It will be difficult to get the temperature of the inside of the pipe with an IR device because the surroundings are going to swamp the outside, given that background of the furnace walls. Note that the one I recommended has a 1:50 beam spread which is a very narrow viewport, which is in your favour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The idea of sticking a fairly long probe into a second hole is a good one. You will need to get a probe long enough to not be affected by the heat conducted back to the handle. There are wire thermocouples that can handle the temps you are using. The longest I have in a 3mm rod is 12 inches I think. It might not be long enough for oven work </span><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>L</span><span style='color:#1F497D'> .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regarding the emissivity of the outside of the pipe – yes it matters. If you were to open the door and get close enough for a 2 second read at a distance that the eye was not picking up background IR, the tube could conceivably be read without a thermocouple inserted into it. The colour matters. Note that the colour matters even if it is glowing bright red. Emissivity is emissivity. So you need to establish what the </span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>ɛ</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#1F497D'>value is before you start. It will give off the radiation it is able to throw off. It is true the emissivity changes a bit with temperature but it is not much between 0 and 700. What you view as black or glowing red is just your eyes picking up (or not) radiation in certain frequency ranges. The IR camera sees at different frequencies (hence false-colour photos taken in the IR radiation range. When we look with bare eyes we see nothing, perhaps (like at night). I write this to point out that </span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>ɛ </span><span style='color:#1F497D'>remains the same.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The </span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>ɛ </span><span style='color:#1F497D'>f black pipe is about 0.9-0.95. Something as low as 0.25 is very shiny like polished aluminum. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Complicated? Well, yes but at least it is possible when a few years ago it was not! Gotta be happy about that!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0mm 0mm 0mm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Shields<br><b>Sent:</b> 15 September 2011 19:07<br><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] flames touching pot<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Dear Crispin,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I’m using pipes to char samples for testing. The furnace the pipes are in is temperature controlled. I want to check the temperature to make sure the furnace temp reading is accurate to the temperature of the pipe.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I like the fact the IR detector also has a probe. I am thinking I can ‘read’ the outside of the pipe using IR and have a blank pipe with a larger hole in one end to insert the K-probe to get a reading inside the pipe. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>In this case the heat is outside and inside the pipe (in the furnace) so does emissivity come in to play? There should be no lost of heat at the surface as I see it. Should I set it at 1 to get the real temperature?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Why is something so simple always become so complicated. : )<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I have more questions but will read your email again to see if it answers it. I am using a ‘black’ steel pipe that has an e of ~0.23. How would I set the IR meter to read the temperature of the pipe surface while it is in the furnace (open door and read quickly)? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Frank Shields</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Control Laboratories, Inc.</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>42 Hangar Way</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Watsonville, CA 95076</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>(831) 724-5422 tel</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>(831) 724-3188 fax</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><a href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com">frank@compostlab.com</a></span><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><a href="http://www.compostlab.com">www.compostlab.com</a></span><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 15, 2011 1:52 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] flames touching pot</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Dear Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>There is a marvellous product available from ThermoWorks. It was not very expensive compared with earlier technologies. We have two of these in Ulaanbaatar.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.thermoworks.com/products/ir/irpro.html">http://www.thermoworks.com/products/ir/irpro.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>It comes in that very nice box on the right.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Because it was quite new I had to have them shipped to my regular supplier E&E Process and take them to UB.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Make sure to get a K-band thermocouple to go with it that is long enough to get into places the supplied one can’t reach. It is not wrong to have a 5 foot long one 8mm in diameter. They are not very expensive.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Note that the emissivity can be set from 0.1 to 1.0 – an amazing range. This is a new generation machine. $225!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0mm 0mm 0mm'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>++++++++</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Dear Crispin,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I’m surprised the paint color on the outside would make much difference. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Lets see if I have this right. As the goal is to keep the heat inside the stove body we want less radiation to the outside off the paint. So more heat on the outside surface the more loss from the inside stove unless the loss is greater than the heat being supplied from the stove (not likely(?)). So its not the thickness of the paint and insulating material of the paint but the color of the surface that makes a big difference(?) as to how fast the heat will radiate to the outside air(?). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>And thanks for the info on purchase of an IR thermometer having an emissivity setting as I am about to purchase one. Any suggestions?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Again - lots of great information. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>