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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>This may help: <a href="http://bioenergylists.org/andersontludcopm">http://bioenergylists.org/andersontludcopm</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>erin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alex English<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Hi TLUDers -- and EPA testing questions<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Ron, Crispin,<br>Many moons ago, when I had access to an IR CO,CO2 monitor, I filtered the gasses before the flame on a TLUD. If memory serves me I got 9% CO and 15% CO2. But memory sometimes seems to be serving others. If only we had access to the old archives, I reported it to this list at the time, but alas the 'server' changed. It amazes me that nobody has done this since.<br>Alex<br><br><br>On 24/10/2011 10:41 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Ron</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>>“For those not having experience with TLUDs, Dean's reference to "no primary air can make it up", means that the oxygen is "entirely" used to produce carbon monoxide.”</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>…</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>>It is really rare to find a normalised CO emissions factor (not concentration in the emerging gases) above 100,000 ppm. I have only see it once and I work with some of the wildest devices the imagination has produced. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> <b>[RWL: This part I don't understand. Neither Dean or I were talking about anything other than primary air. </b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I see that you did not follow. I am sure is it my method of describing it. Here is a short version: You can’t get pure CO from biomass pyrolysis for inherent chemical reasons. </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Proof that I offer: I have measured CO production across a wide range of conditions and it is almost impossible to get more than 10% CO even when it is theoretically possible (from the elemental composition) to get 40%.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>CO(ppm) * (EA+100%) = CO(EF) at O2=0% (the O2 is factored out). </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> <b>[RWL3: The subject of excess air for testing the completeness of combustion (after adding secondary air and releasing the majority of the energy) is extraneous to the sentence under discussion.]</b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That is how to work out what the CO level is, in ppm. 100,000 ppm is 10%.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>>I mention this to support my conclusion that the O2 tends to create ‘fuel moisture’ very easily.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>I have personally measured the gases coming up through the fuel bed in a TLUD (a borrowed high quality tool) and the dominant gas was CO (many millions of ppm). </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That is impossible. 1 million parts per million is 100% CO.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>> RWL4: My main concern is with Crispin's above next-to-last sentence: "</span></b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am expressing doubts that level could be created in a TLUD that was not first run as a regular fire.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b> The word "TLUD" should say to all that the test operation was NOT run as a regular fire. They are as near to polar opposites as the stove world can get. So this is to ask Crispin what he is saying here and what part of my response he is objecting to?</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am offering a method of how to get a CO content as high as 10%. Start a regular fire, get it going well, then enclose it in a vessel while hot and running. This can produce 10% CO, but a TLUD cannot. That is my contention.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Biomass needs just a little more air (Oxygen) to completely use up the H2 and then breathe in whatever additional air would burn all the Carbon. In any real file, some of the C becomes CO and CO2 (surface reactions mentioned by Dr Tom Reed in a previous discussion).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>></span> <b>[RWL: I hope we can get a specific citation for/from Tom here. </b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>He addressed it directly previously on two occasions. </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>></span>At the hot surface from which (very complicated and numerous [1000's of species??]) pyrolysis gases are emerging, my understanding of the pyrolysis surface effect literature is that "all" (given control of the incoming oxygen flow) are turned into CO and water. </b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My point is that if there is NO air entering, virtually all the O2 in the fuel is turned into water. The great proportion. Some of the H2 is left in the gas but is it hard to find an H2(EF) of 15,000 (1.5%). I have no problem with others contradicting this with real measurements.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>>></span>The relatively small amount of CO2 that is produced near the surface (not ON) is converted back to CO as it interacts with the hot char above it</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This only happens under certain conditions and not when it is cool. Dr Tom was mentioning C=> CO2 reactions taking place above 400 C on the surface. CO can also be formed, and volatiles (which contain carbon) can break down into CO as well. The CO in the gas is not necessarily produced from CO2 and is unlikely if the temperature is low because it has to absorb a lot of heat to do so (24 MJ/kg).</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>></span> So I repeat - I am mystified by this message and about what is at dispute. </b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am not sure there is a dispute. Perhaps the clarification will suffice.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Crispin</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>