<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">Kevin (cc 2 lists):<br><br> 1. Your response to my one sentence response to Anil's two questions below has nothing to do with stoves. If you want to continue discussions on whether excess atmospheric carbon can/will/should be a reason for accelerated growth of Biochar, I urge you to join our sister list: "Biochar-policy" (being cc'd). <br><br> 2. The important part of Anil's two questions (which contained the words that I answered (see below) in a personal "belief" (as opposed to your denial) sense were the two now <u>underlined (my choices for emphasis) and CAPITALIZED</u> conjunctions:<br><br><div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b><span style="text-decoration: underline;">By Ani</span>l: <span style="font-style: italic;">"What
will be a better strategy for agricultural residues: to produce </span><span style="text-decoration: underline; font-style: italic;">char</span><em> </em><span style="text-decoration: underline; font-style: italic;">OR</span><span style="font-style: italic;">
organic fertilizer?</span></b></font></font></font></div><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span><div style="font-style: italic;"><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b><br></b></font></font></font></div><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span><div style="font-style: italic;"><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b>Is
there any quantitative studies done for both value production <span style="text-decoration: underline;">AND</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;">reducing</span>
environmental considerations?<br></b></font></font></font></div><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span><div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b></b></font></font></font></div><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#333399" size="3"><br> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> The answers that Anil seeks are on the four Biochar lists and the IBI site (and dozens of other sites) almost every day. I gave the shortest appropriate answer I could for the stoves list.<br><br>3. B</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">y far the biggest "<span style="font-style: italic;">environmental consideration</span>" we have in the world today is anthropogenic global warming (AGW). If Anil meant anything else, I would be greatly surprised. When I have seen you (mostly a biochar detractor) defending your Biochar PR advice on any of the biochar lists, then I will take your charge of my irresponsibility seriously.<br><br> 4. </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> I also look forward to your claiming on any biochar list that IBI is "irresponsible" when saying, exactly as did I, that Biochar can effectively remove excess CO2 - as one of two equal parts of IBI's Biochar definition.. <br><br> 5. You referred to my "belief" several times - presumably to contrast with "denier". I also "believe" in the law of gravity. I believe in evolution. I can't think of another word to use in questions of science. I'm ready to discuss the words "belief" and "denier" any time you wish when talking about the sciences related to AGW and/or Biochar.<br><br> 6. I am not going to respond to any of your admonishments below except to say I find no merit in any of them. I'd be glad to explain that "any" statement on the "biochar-policy" list. "Stoves" is not an appropriate venue for that dialogue.<br><br> 7. To stovers: </span></font><font style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#333399" size="3">I hope/think most of you will recognize that we will see a lot more clean and income-generating stoves (charcoal-making
stoves) when the USA catches up with the rest of the world. By "catchup", I mean gaining a realistic view of the
problems associated with AGW ( the subject matter of the three messages following). Charcoal-making stoves can play a huge and early role in solving this AGW problem. Carbon negativity is very different from carbon neutrality. I believe Anil asked a good question and I would not change my answer.<br></font><font size="3"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#333399" size="3">Ron<br></font>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><br></font></font></font></div><br> <br> <br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Kevin" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, November 2, 2011 11:42:09 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Char vs. fertilizer<br><br>
<style></style>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dear Ron</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Anil raises a very important question that should
not be dismissed with a mere belief. I suggest that you are doing Biochar a
great disservice by persisting on "beating the Climate Change Drum", while
disregarding the circumstances where biochar additions to the soil will actually
benefit the Farmer and Grower. Biochar usage will escalate dramatically in
circumstances where biochar can be clearly and palpably demonstrated as being
cost effective to the Farmer and Grower. In my opinion, Biochar usage will
virtually collapse, if its use depends on the Carbon Credit Payment incentives
actually received by the Farmer or Grower. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The general state of the World Economies, and the
complexity of system administration is such that it is extremely unlikely
that Carbon Credit Payments will actually reach the Farmer or Grower to a degree
that such payments will encourage the use of
biochar. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Furthermore, I feel it is irresponsible to promote
increased usage of Biochar in Agriculture, without knowing the circumstances
where biochar <font face="Times New Roman" size="3">additions will actually be of
benefit to the Farmer and Grower. Some of the Farmers that people like Anil, Dr.
Reddy, Dr. Karve, and Peter Ongele wish to help are literally one crop
away from starvation; a "disappointing yield" or a crop failure can literally
have lethal consequences. Sadly, all too many "Biochar Promoters" infer
that "Biochar = Terra Preta". Evidence I have from personal tests, confirmed by
others, shows that "Biochar Only", in a disadvantaged soil will DECREASE
plant growth. However, others have indeed shown that under certain
circumstances, biochar appears to be beneficial to the Farmer or
Grower, PROVIDING that other soil amendments needed by the soil are added at the
same time. Such "other soil amendments" or additives could
include:</font></font></div>
<div>* Organic matter</div>
<div>* Manure</div>
<div>* Fertilizer</div>
<div>* Compost</div>
<div>* Urine</div>
<div>* Microbes</div>
<div>* Sugar</div>
<div>* Silt and Clay</div>
<div>* Etc</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Biochar alone is NOT a panacea for the Farmer or
Grower. While it can be PART of a solution in some cases, it can
only result in an improvement if it brings something to the soil, that the soil
lacks. For example, there is no point in adding charcoal to a soil that is
deficient in organic matter, in that charcoal is NOT organic matter... it is
"mineralized carbon" that originated from biomass, and it cannot feed the
soil life-forms necessary for plant growth.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">In my opinion, Anil's question is extremely
relevant, and it deserves to be answered in a responsible manner... with
evidence from competently structured and implemented tests, rather than being
dismissed with an unsupported belief. Using a soil that is otherwise "good",
with the single exception that it is deficient in organic matter, the tests
should be structured to determine if the Farmer or Grower gets superior growth
results under the following test conditions:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">A: A given amount of organic matter is added to the
soil per square meter.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">or</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">B: The SAME amount of organic matter per
square meter is charred to produce biochar, and the resulting biochar is added
to the test plot.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Note that this simple test will only prove the
difference between organic matter and biochar... it does not answer the question
posed by Anil. Given that an "Organic Fertilizer" is "Organic matter plus a
"package of additives"", the above simple test could be expanded in a manner
where identical "additive packages" were added to the test plots in the "A
Plots" (organic matter) and "B Plots" (biochar from the same amount of organic
matter). </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kevin</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">Ron
Larson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 02, 2011 7:21
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Char vs.
fertilizer</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Anil (cc list)</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div> I believe Biochar will do the better job of removing excess
atmospheric CO2 and of improving soil productivity over the long term.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Ron<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br>On Nov 2, 2011, at 2:38 AM, nari phaltan <<a href="mailto:nariphaltan@gmail.com" target="_blank">nariphaltan@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b>Dear
Stovers,</b></font></font></font>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b><br></b></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b>What
will be a better strategy for agricultural residues: to produce char or
organic fertilizer?</b></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b><br></b></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b>Is
there any quantitative studies done for both value production and reducing
environmental considerations?</b></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b><br></b></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b>Both
char and organic fertilizer will go towards enriching the
soil.</b></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b><br></b></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b>Cheers.</b></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b><br></b></font></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#333399"><font size="2"><font face="tahoma,sans-serif"><b>Anil<br clear="all"></b></font></font></font>
<div><br></div>-- <br><font color="#330099" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute
(NARI)<br>Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road<br>P.O.Box 44<br>Phaltan-415523,
Maharashtra, India<br>Ph:91-2166-222396/220945<br><a href="mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com" target="_blank">e-mail:nariphaltan@gmail.com</a><br>
<a href="mailto:anilrajvanshi@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:anilrajvanshi@gmail.com" target="_blank">anilrajvanshi@gmail.com</a></font><br><br><a href="http://www.nariphaltan.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.nariphaltan.org" target="_blank">http://www.nariphaltan.org</a><br><br><br></div></div></blockquote>
<blockquote>
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Database: 2092/4589 - Release Date: 11/01/11</p></blockquote>
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