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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link="#1E66AE" vlink="#1E66AE"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Yury,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This stoves discussion group is for cooking stoves for developing countries, which is why were are interested in your charcoal kilns and stoves. The biochar discussions are at <a href="http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/">http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We have hosted the stoves discussion since 1996. Most of the several hundred people on this list are involved in developing cooking stoves or building and installing improved cook stoves in developing countries. Participants on this list have installed hundreds of thousands of stoves. We are experienced in gasification, combustion and rural and urban development. Collectively this year participants have probably installed more than 800,000 cook stoves in more than 200 countries. You will find their work linked on the stoves discussion site at www.stoves.bioenerglists.org ; Partnership for Clean Indoor Air <a href="http://www.pciaonline.org/">http://www.pciaonline.org/</a> and others. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You will find that participants on the biochar lists, which we have hosted since 2006, are also very experienced in soils, crops, engineering, and field applications in developing countries. Biochar is one of the tools that can help development and we are working to find ways in which it can help both provide heat for cooking and char to improve soil fertility. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So discussion about improved biomass cooking stoves belongs on this list. Discussion about biochar belongs on the biochar lists unless you are making biochar with a cooking stove. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tom Miles<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Owner Bioenergylists.org<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">tmiles@trmiles.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>user-05@list.ru<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 26, 2011 11:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar - Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'><br><br><br><span class=hps>Andrew C, David, Clem, Xmas Cheers, Erich, Ron, Kevin and ccs:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=hps><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'>Biochar</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'>is not the best</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'>method of application</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'>to improve</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:whitesmoke'>soil fertility.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'><br><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>The most</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>effective method of</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>improving soil fertility</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>is</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>fertilizationof green</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>wood</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>waste</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>obtained during the</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>processing of</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>essential oils.</span></span><br><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>The amount of waste</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>wood</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>green</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>compared to</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>biochar</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>get</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>more.Essential oils</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>in it</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>are removed.</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>This waste</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>wood</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>greens</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>are</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>an excellent material</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>for planting</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>and</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>breeding</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>Californian worm</span></span><span style='background:whitesmoke'>.</span><br><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>In addition</span></span><span style='background:whitesmoke'>, Africans<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>get</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>a well paid job</span>, producing<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>essential oilsfrom</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>native trees</span>.</span><br><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>Turn</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>me</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>into</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>a program to improve</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='background:whitesmoke'> </span></span><span class=hps><span style='background:whitesmoke'>soil fertility in Africa</span></span><span style='background:whitesmoke'>.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>I will create a</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>perfect</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>equipment</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>for</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>wood</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>waste</span>-free<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>green</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>tar</span>, tar,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>taroils.</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>It</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>Californian</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>worms will</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>reproduce</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>and</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>velshikolepno</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>Africawill gradually</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>blooming</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>and</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>fragrant</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>country.</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>I'm ready</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>now</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>to join in</span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span class=hps>this cause.</span></span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" title="rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" title="biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a> ; <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass</a> ; <a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" title="kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin Chisholm</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cc:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:erichjknight@gmail.com" title="erichjknight@gmail.com">Erich Knight</a> ; <a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com" title="biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Tuesday, December 27, 2011 8:01 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar - Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Kevin and ccs:<br><br> 1. This is getting complicated - as the dialog has shifted from the BFW story on Africa/Rademakers over to the IBI material.prepared by Kelpie Wilson. My perception is that you are looking for specific information from both reports that were not intended and aren't there. So I see no reason to respond to your questions about Kelpie's IBI work .<br><br> 2. The BFW story was covered on the biochar lists about a month ago; see:<br> <a href="http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar-production/message/833">http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar-production/message/833</a><br> It is unfortunate that this story is started over again on the stoves list. It doesn't belong - there is zero stoves aspect to the BFW story.. <br><br> 3. I look forward to hearing your reaction to the selected quotes from BFW's report - which I presume you have not yet read.<br><br>Ron<br> :<o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center id=zwchr></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>"Kevin C" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, December 26, 2011 8:37:12 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [biochar] [Stoves] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar - Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon<br><br> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=ygrp-mlmsg><div id=ygrp-msg><div id=ygrp-text><p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Dear Erich<br>Quoting Erich Knight <<a href="mailto:erichjknight%40gmail.com" target="_blank">erichjknight@gmail.com</a>>:<br><br>> The Black Market speaks louder than words;<br>> What better positive proof than the section about the dark side of our<br>> nature, the thieft of the biochar corn, believed to be some new breed of<br>> magic bean, I believe the judgement of the blackmarket has a lot to say<br>> about the true results of this effort.<br>> I would like to see how many participants were excluded from the project<br>> because of this.<br>> This BFW report on Lauren's work only looks bad to folks who don't have an<br>> appreciation of the communication and infrastructural problems of<br>> working in Africa. He tried to enroll 1500, got less, but the smiling faces<br>> holding up the corn root balls is irrefutable to me.<br><br># OK!! That is wonderful!! What specifically was it that those who had <br>good results do, that was good, and what specifically did those with <br>bad results do, that was bad? It might have been that those who had <br>the good results put on more than the usual amount of compost and <br>fertilizer, and watered their crops adequately, while those with the <br>poor results simply added biochar alone, and did not water the crop <br>adequately. From the Report, we just don't know.<br>><br>> In response, ( if I had the author's email ) , I would send her the soil<br>> testing work in Kenya, Uganda and the work<br>> Pro-Natura has done across the global south.<br><br># Does it tell specifically how much of biochar, compost, fertilizer <br>to add per square meter, for the soils in that area? Does the Report <br>tell whether or not the treatment is an economically sound move for <br>the Farmer? If I was a poor Farmer, with limited resources, such <br>information would be very valuable to me.<br>><br>> *Biochar Work** in Nine Developing Countries:<br>> *<a href="http://www.biochar-international.org/9country*" target="_blank">http://www.biochar-international.org/9country*</a><br><br># The above Report is all about experiemnts underway now. There are no <br>results showing the circumstances, if any, under which biochar would <br>be a sensible investment for a poor Farmer. Please let us know when <br>results from these 9 tests are available.<br>><br>> World Bank Study:* The survey data from 150 biochar projects located in 38<br>> developing countries is available now on the IBI website at:<br>> <a href="http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Survey_5-11-11_online.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Survey_5-11-11_online.pdf</a><<a href="http://org2.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=0EjclpuNkm8%2Be%2B4l0rwVIf1odzqaGaMk" target="_blank">http://org2.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=0EjclpuNkm8%2Be%2B4l0rwVIf1odzqaGaMk</a>><br>> .<br># If I was a poor Farmer, and read this latter report, it would be <br>interesting, but it would suggest that biochar is still very much in <br>the experimental phase, and I would not wish to spend my meagre <br>resources on something that was not proven.<br><br>Best wishes,<br><br>Kevin Chisholm<br><br>><br>> Xmas Cheers,<br>> Erich<br>><br>><br>> *On Behalf Of *Kevin C<br>><br>>> *Sent:* Sunday, December 25, 2011 11:00 PM<br>>> *To:* <a href="mailto:biochar%40yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br>>> *Subject:* Re: [biochar] [Stoves] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -<br>>> Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon****<br>>><br>>> ** **<br>>><br>>> ****<br>>><br>>> Dear David and Clem<br>>><br>>> It is just as wrong to falsely condemn biochar as being ineffective as<br>>> it is to falsely praise biochar as being effective.<br>>><br>>> The Cameroon Report tells of a series of tests that turned out badly.<br>>> If this is a true report of a biochar test, then biochar supporters<br>>> should have great concerns. The issue here is: Is the report correct<br>>> or not? It is very wrong to criticize the report simply because it<br>>> reports results which we do not like to hear.<br>>><br>>> So, if you wish to criticize this report, it would be very helpful to<br>>> do so, but to do so in a helpful manner, you must show where it is<br>>> wrong.<br>>> * Was data falsified?<br>>> * Was poor testing protocol followed?<br>>> * Were the soil circumstances inappropriate for the use of biochar?<br>>> * Was the test work competently managed and executed?<br>>> * Etc...<br>>><br>>> It would be very surprising indeed if every single biochar test was a<br>>> resounding success, and it would be equally surprising if every single<br>>> biochar test was a failure. I am sure that there are circumstances<br>>> where the use of biochar is appropriate, and I am equally sure that<br>>> there are circumstances where biochar is inapropriate.<br>>><br>>> My problem is just that: I don't know where to recommend biochar as<br>>> being appropriate, and I don't know where to recommend it as being<br>>> inappropriate.<br>>><br>>> Can you help me, and everyone else who would like to use biochar, if<br>>> it made economic sense?<br>>><br>>> Thanks.<br>>><br>>> Kevin Chisholm<br>>><br>>> Quoting David Yarrow <<a href="mailto:dyarrow5%40gmail.com" target="_blank">dyarrow5@gmail.com</a>>:<br>>><br>>> > hear, hear, clement.<br>>> > beware the hidden agenda funded by invisible enemies.<br>>> > these people do not use honest reason or plain facts to advance<br>>> > their charges.<br>>> > their motivation is not rational or reasonable.<br>>> > beware the smokescreen.<br>>> > ~dancing dragonfly<br>>> ><br>>> > On Dec 26, 2011, at 1:22 AM, Clement Aigbogun wrote:<br>>> ><br>>> >><br>>> >> --<br>>> >> Can you please explain to the list why you are making a suble<br>>> condemnation<br>>> >> Of something you have not tried yourself?<br>>> >> You must have a hidden agenda.I have tried biochar on soil and<br>>> >> plant and I tell you it produce<br>>> >> Excellent results.<br>>> >> Please try and experiment with biochar before making any<br>>> >> pronouncement about it.<br>>> >> Clement<br>>> >> Nigeria<br>>> >> PS- feel free to ask me sincere questions about biochar and its<br>>> >> uses and I shall provide<br>>> >> Answers based on my ongoing experiment on biochar utilisation.<br>>> >> I would provide useful answers if you are polite and not just<br>>> >> trying to bring down a useful idea because of you hidden agenda<br>>> >><br>>> >> ----------------------------On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 5:40 PM GMT-12:00<br>>> >> Andrew C. Parker wrote:>Could someone please post this to the<br>>> >> Biochar<br>>> >> <br>>> list?>><<a href="http://allafrica.com/stories/printable/201112160395.html" target="_blank">http://allafrica.com/stories/printable/201112160395.html</a>>>>_______________________________________________>Stoves<br>>> mailing list>>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address><br>>> <a href="mailto:stoves%40lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List<br>>> Settings use the web page><br>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists</a>>.org>>for<br>>> more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<br>>> >> site:><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a>>><br>>> >><br>>> ><br>>> >****<br>>><br>>> 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