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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Jim</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=karnask@hotmail.com href="mailto:karnask@hotmail.com">jim
karnofski</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=biochar@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">Richard Hard</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A>
; <A title=biochar-production@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:59
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Biochar as an Agricultural
Tool Was: Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -Unfulfilled
Promises in Cameroon</DIV>
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<P>
<DIV dir=ltr>Dear All,<BR> <BR>
<DIV>
<DIV id=SkyDrivePlaceholder></DIV>
<HR id=stopSpelling>
From: <A href="mailto:karnask@hotmail.com">karnask@hotmail.com</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</A><BR>Subject:
RE: Biochar as an Agricultural Tool Was: Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com:
Africa: Biochar -Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon<BR>Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011
19:54:53 +0000<BR><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr>I see Kevin as a thoughtful and skeptical, but not well-read
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=3 face=Arial># I have been reading about Terra Preta
and Biochar for the past 6 to 8 years. Perhaps I have not been reading the
right material?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>and Kevin seems to see agriculture as
a science with certainty as if it always has black and white
answers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial># No. We do not need such "black or white"
answers... some good general and rational guidelines would
suffice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=3 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> The more you know about soils, the more respect for
uncertainty you have as the chemical nature of soil is infinite.
<BR> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=3 face=Arial># Agreed. However, we must be able to
quantify the areas where biochar could most likely be of benefit, and the
areas where it would least likely to be of benefit. At least, we would
then be able to do test work that had a higher likelihood of
success.</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3 face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>As far as farm economics, time and testing will tell, but I
am certain the answer will be more pragmatic than some farmers can stand.
For instance, a recommendation might be, add biochar as you can afford,
building up to 1% in your lifetime and leave the next increment to the next
farmer over the next generation. The efficiency and effectiveness of the soil
is improved with the added carbon. And Carbon, by definition, is
organic. Carbon compounds need not be edible to be considered
organic.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=3 face=Arial># I would respectfully suggest that while
biomass matter is organic, biochar is organic matter that has been
mineralized. It does nor function in soil the same way that true organic
matter does. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>I encourage Kevin to carefully read the scientific table-top
research studies from Australia, <A
href="http://adl.brs.gov.au/data/wareho use/biochar9abcm001/biochar9abcm00101/TR.2011.06_Biochar_v1.0.0.pdf"
target=_blank>http://adl.brs.gov.au/data/warehouse/biochar9abcm001/biochar9abcm00101/TR.2011.06_Biochar_v1.0.0.pdf</A><BR> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=3 face=Arial>.</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3
face=Arial></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Arial># This 63 page report seems to be balanced and
sensible. I would draw attention to a quote from the
summary: <FONT size=2 face=MyriadPro-Light><FONT size=2
face=MyriadPro-Light>
<P align=left><FONT size=3><STRONG>"Current knowledge about the effects of
adding biochar to Australian agricultural soils is not sufficient to support
recommending its use."</STRONG></FONT></P>
<P align=left> <FONT size=3># This would seem to support my inquiry for
more guidelines on where to consider using biochar, and where to avoid using
it. </FONT> <FONT size=3>All I am asking is for more
knowledge and guidelines to support recommending its
use. </FONT></P>
<P align=left><FONT size=3></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR> and the
US, <A href="http://www.biochar-us.org/pdf%20files/biochar_report_lowres.pdf"
target=_blank>http://www.biochar-us.org/pdf%20files/biochar_report_lowres.pdf</A>,
for a reasonable up-to-date summary of the best known scientific
evidence of why it was used by the ancients for MILLENNIA. <BR></P>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=3 face=Arial># Pages 3 to 5 of this 84 page report
give good insight into where biochar could be a benefit to Agriculture. The
bulk of this report extols biochar's energy and climate change advantages.
However, there is nothing specific that would enable a Farmer to make a
rational decision on whether or not to bother with a biochar
test.</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3 face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>I am pragmatic enough to hedge on my own to incrementally add
biochar as I can.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr># <FONT face=Arial>What were the reasons that led you to use
biochar? Which of biochar's features do you feel are of benefit to you?
Do you feel that you are getting a good financial return on your investment in
biochar additions? If so, what would you estimate the simple Return on
Investment to be? <BR></FONT> <BR>As far as having a clear
answer with diagnosis and intervention with organic soils,
intervention is going to be harder to achieve as the infinite nature of
an organic soil does not lend itself to the very simple Chemistry 101 of the
past Leibig-like "soil science". The present and future complex
soil science will consider the soil as an in finite mixture of compounds and
generally unknown bacteria, fungi, plasmids, prions, and elemental
compounds, with unmeasurable symbiotic interactions, requiring
meta-genetics, to get a glimpse as to what might be happening in any given
micro environment. Good luck with funding basic organic soil science as the
money is not there. It is the Agro-chemical-industrial complex that sets the
priorities with funding and that is not compatable with organic enhancing
measures like biochar. It may have to be up to us as Citizen Scientists to get
the job done during this stage of our societies growth and
development.<BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=3 face=Arial># OK.... given the complex nature of
organic soils, and the probable difficulty of evaluating results in a
meaningful and transferable manner, would it be best to avoid biochar
application on organic soils, and focus biochar testing on soils with a
lower organic content? Concerning your suggestion that "Big Ag" is choking off
funding for biochar research, perhaps effort should be focused on finding ways
to make "Organic Fertilisers" incorporating biochar, as suggested by Anil
Rajvanshi?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial></FONT><BR>We should all get used to painting
with a broad brush, still using the Chem 101, but using a broad brush to
address problems. The ancients threw everything back into the soil, feeding it
like the soil is an omnivore, cultivating like it needed to respirate and
respecting it like their life depended upon it. <BR></DIV><FONT size=3
face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=3 face=Arial># There is a huge message here. Terra
Preta is said to have worked wonderfully, and to have been extremely fertile.
You seem to have described "Organic Gardening with a Charcoal Addition." :-)
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>The soil has been treated lik e dirt for too long, just a
petri-dish medium with N-P-K needs, etc. One needs to treat it like the living
ecosystem that it is. Biochar has been proven to be effective and not
harmful in any soil for advancing the quantity and the diversity of life. So,
in my organic soil it is part of my compost regimen because it works well for
me as it seemed to have work well for others for thousands of
years.<BR> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=3 face=Arial># I would suggest that the attitude
"...treating soil like dirt..." outlook took hold with the advent of
industrially produced fertilizers, and the reduced attention to the importance
of soil organic matter.</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3 face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>We need the naysayers, but they need to read and practice,
too. <BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial># Well, if a Farmer that was interested in the
potential use of biochar on his farm read the above two Reports, he would
probably be left with the messages:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>1: Australian Report: There are many unknowns,
and biochar is unlikely to be economically advantageous.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>2: American Report: Since only 3 out of 84 pages
in this report suggest a potential for agricultural benefit from using
biochar, it is probably not not worth considering it further at this
time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial># These reports are no way to sell a Farmer on
using biochar!! :-) Would you know of ANY URL's that would give a Farmer a
rational and economic basis for justifying a biochar test? Otherwise, the
Farmers are sure to be naysayers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>Thanks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> <BR>Jim<BR> <BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV id=SkyDrivePlaceholder></DIV>
<HR id=stopSpelling>
To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>CC: biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com;
biochar-production@yahoogroups.com; biochar@yahoogroups.com<BR>From:
kchisholm@ca.inter.net<BR>Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:52:15 -0400<BR>Subject:
Biochar as an Agricultural Tool Was: Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com:
Africa: Biochar -Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon<BR><BR><SPAN> </SPAN>
<DIV id=ecxygrp-mlmsg>
<DIV id=ecxygrp-msg>
<DIV id=ecxygrp-text>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear All</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Biochar is not a panacea, contrary to what its
enthusiastic supporters infer. It works, and is beneficial in some
circumstances, and it fails to be beneficial in others. Charcoal that is used
in Agriculture as a soil amendment is called "Biochar", yet it has taken on a
life of its own, as a "Climate Improvement Tool". The "Climate Improvement
People" seem to assume that biochar is beneficial to agriculture, and don't
seem to have much interest in whether or not biochar is an economically sound
investment as an "agricultural additive."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>What would be vital to know are the circumstances where
it is sensible to consider the use of biochar to improve agricultural
productivity. Agricultural Science can analyze a soil and say, for example:
"This soil needs 1.0 tons of N and 3.5 tons of Ca per acre to turn
it into a good garden soil." As far as I know, there is no way to make a sound
and rational recommendation on how much biochar to add per acre. It is totally
irresponsible, in my opinion, to recommend a general addition of (say) 10
tonnes per hectare; some soils may attain optimal benefit with 1 tonne/Ha,
while other soils may require 20 tonnes per Ha</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Some people say that "Biochar improves moisture
retention characteristics of soil." Just how much moisture can biochar
retain? Are there better ways to retain moisture in the soil? For example, a
kG of peat can retain about 7 kG of water. Biochar is notoriously difficult to
wet, and it is thus difficult to get it to absorb or retain moisture. Perhaps
the best way to retain moisture is to simply add the organic matter,
from which biochar could be made, directly to the soil? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>We are told that "Biochar is better than organic matter
because it lasts 1,000+ years in the soil." Sure! Because it does not provide
feed for soil organisms! A key concept in Organic Agriculture is "Feed the
soil, and the plants can look after themselves.". Biochar does not "feed the
soil."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>We are told that "Biochar is a haven for soil microbes."
Well, in many cases, any microbes that can enter the char pores would be
smothered by the microbes that would cover the outer surface of the individual
charcoal grain. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>We are shown really nice photos of how roots head for
charcoal lumps, and are told "See how charcoal promotes plant development!"
The reality may be that the charcoal robs the nutrients from adjacent soil and
concentrates it within the charcoal. The kid looking for candy goes into the
candy store, rather than looking on the pavement outside it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>We are also told that "Biochar is organic matter." If it
can't feed soil microbes, it is not organic matter.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The only thing I know for sure about biochar is that it
can sequester carbon. Does anyone know specifically how and why biochar is
beneficial to agriculture? Does anyone know the "soil circumstances" when and
how to apply biochar to a soil to improve upon or eliminate a specific soil
deficiency? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>A Farmer can take a soil sample, have it analysed, and
competent Soil Scientists can tell him exactly what he should add to the soil
to improve it. Are there ANY "soil circumstances" where a biochar addition
would be the best additive to cure a soil deficiency?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>If so, what are they?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Now, biochar may be effective in curing a particular
condition, but there may be more economic alternatives for accomplishing the
same end result. Naturally, the sensible Farmer will want to employ them
rather than biochar, because he saves money.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The bottom line question seems to be: Are there any
circumstances where biochar additions are the best tool for the Farmer to use
to improve productivity and reduce costs?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>If there are, then I would suggest that they should be
clearly identified, as a way to expand the use of biochar, and to benefit the
Farmer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin Chisholm</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid" dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=english@kingston.net href="mailto:english@kingston.net">Alex
English</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 31, 2011 10:35
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] [biochar]
allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Dear Anand,<BR>It is well documented how new drugs are often
compared in trials to treatments that are not the best current treatment.
Thus the not so surprising favorable results. <BR><BR>Physicist Richard
Feynman would ask to see the data, so he could draw his own conclusions,
which could differ from the primary author. <BR>"<B
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px">Science
is the belief in the ignorance of experts" <BR><BR></B>What then is 'peer
review'?<BR><B
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><BR></B>So
much of what we read about biochar sounds like a woefully inadequate recipe
for curry. Ju st add spices. Without differentiating char
characteristics and the conditions of treatment soils, all we can conclude
is further research is required, or go back and do it right. If you multiply
those variables you can put a high quantity on 'expert ignorance'. Add a
pinch of time span,and biology, then good and bad results become
curiosities. Terra Preta may be a fine wine now but what was it back
then. <BR><BR>Unburned Char can have value right now. Potting mix, sorption
of nasties, crayons, even as insulation under hydronic heating lines.
Physics and chemistry are quick. Biology is a chronic research pain that
delights and confounds. <BR><BR>Repeatedly we see reference to biochar being
beneficial to 'highly weathered" tropical soils. Would you characterize any
of the soils you added charcoal to as being "highly weathered"?
<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Alex<BR><B
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px"><BR></B><BR>On
31/12/2011 12:14 AM, Anand Karve wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:CACPy7SdfSJCj6zrWWQkhaG8EXtgaBT=iqx4Z0z0HShtyu4N2xQ@mail.gmail.com>
<DIV>Dear Kevin, Crispin and Ron,</DIV>
<DIV>I have been conducting experiments, off and on, for almost a
decade on effect of charcoal applied to the soil. Most of the work
consisted of very preliminary experiments, just to find out if application
of charcoal gave positive results. I would have started a systematic
study, if the preliminary results had indicated that this was a useful
technology. I never got beyond the stage of preliminary experiments,
because they did not reveal to me any beneficial effects on crop yield. I
never reported the results in any formal publication, because the
experiments were of a very preliminary nature, not conducted in
statistically approved designs. Secondly, I want to say that It is
generally the tendency among scientists to cite references that support
one's findings. So picking and choosing of evidence that
supports one's point of view is quite common in scientific
publications.</DIV>
<DIV>Yours</DIV>
<DIV>A.D.Karve <BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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