<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">Crispin and stoves list<br><br>See notes below. (Sorry for not getting to this more promptly) <br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, December 29, 2011 12:39:02 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar - Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon<br><br><style><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear Ron</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I read you bit about ‘dampening enthusiasm’.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> <strong>[RWL: It took a while to find what you were talking about - and I am still not sure. It would be helpful to give a date or include the full text. I think it was this paragraph (one phrase underlined for emphasis) from m message with the same thread title on the 28th (where "they/their" relate to BFW, and "you" was Kevin Chisholm):</strong></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span></span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> <span style="font-style: italic;">I am saying, through their own quotes
of the natives on the ground, that their own report rebuts the image
they are trying to leave. I think they have taken a case (and person)
about which/whom they know little and are trying to </span></span><span style="font-style: italic; text-decoration: underline; font-weight: bold;">dampen enthusiasm</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
for all Biochar thereby - even though the material you don't care to
read makes a different plausible case. If neighbors are stealing a
bumper Biochar-based crop in the belief there is a new miracle seed
(which there wasn't), there remains little for a person like Rademakers
to talk about in detail in the supposedly missing report (which might
exist). BFW leaves only the negative impressions.</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"> Sorry you don't care to comment on what I wrote.</span><em> As I said, more coming on Rademakers - most of which was available to BFW as well.</em></span><br style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> <span style="font-weight: bold;">[RWL: To me this thread is of interest only as it demonstrates the character of BFW's attacks on Biochar. I would love to have someone defend them, so I can understand BFW better. Are you defending them?]</span><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Why would you encourage enthusiasm in something that has not yet been shown (as far as Kevin can tell) to meet the (perhaps exaggerated) expectations thrust upon it?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> <span style="font-weight: bold;">[RWL: I just sent a message today to Kevin and this and other lists that relates to whether there has been exaggeration. First response is that I don't think Kevin is the appropriate authority for you to cite (zero published in referred journals) on whether enthusiasm is justified (which I still think strongly it is). I ask you also for an example of some "perhaps" exaggeration (start with the IBI site, I urge - since that is as near to an official Biochar site as one can find).</span><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I am all for enthusiasm because it drives many organisations, but surely the science should be a bit better understood before we go around promoting ‘biochar producing stoves’ that will ‘save the planet’. It seems a bit of a stretch based on the evidence so far.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> <span style="font-weight: bold;">[RWL: The piece I wrote on the 28th about BFW </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="font-weight: bold;"> unethically </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-weight: bold;">slamming Laurens Rademakers had absolutely nothing to do with either enthusiasm or stoves - and the char used did not come from stoves. <br></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="font-weight: bold;"> What is the citation you are citing for "save the planet"?</span><br style="font-weight: bold;"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-weight: bold;"> What evidence don't you like?</span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I am not convinced that poor people cooking with experimental stoves is the right way to do preliminary investigations. I think we should leave this to the agronomists for a few years and they can get back to us with what works. The fact that amateurs want to get in on it is interesting but it is clearly too early for triumphalism. At the present pace and direction, it is inevitably going discredit both stoves and biochar.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="font-weight: bold;">[RWL: I suggest you need to look further into the literature on charcoal-making stoves as whether anything positive is coming out of "experimental stoves". What Negatives would you emphasize? <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-weight: bold;"> What report are you referencing on any topic in this message (certainly not this thread about BFW and the Cameroon)? I know of no evidence that charcoal from stoves is a primary or even a small way for soil scientists to conduct their "preliminary investigations". What you have raised is a known as a "straw man".</span></p><p style="font-weight: bold;" class="MsoNormal"> Who has used the term "triumphalism" - especially in this thread - where the exact opposite was being proclaimed (illogically)?</p><p style="font-weight: bold;" class="MsoNormal"> I don't understand your use of "present pace and direction" - which seems to me to be horribly slow - and I am sure that "slow" is not what you meant. Of course we have different views on whether a 350 ppm CO2 goal is needed, much less how soon.</p><p style="font-weight: bold;" class="MsoNormal"> In sum - I don't understand how your remarks tie in to anything related to present activity in Biochar or stoves, much less this thread title or anything I wrote. Please feel free to explain what I am missing.<br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="font-weight: bold;"> Ron</span><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Crispin</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>http://www.bioenergylists.org/<br><br></div></div></body></html>