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Hi Ron<br>
Hel-Low Kevin<br>
<br>
You both play your tunes with remarkable commitment. Both common to
the histories of technological change and adoption.<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_lifecycle">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_lifecycle</a><br>
<br>
The road ahead is foggy. Its foggy behind too.<br>
Proceed.<br>
Alex<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:009784DE2E634F4A9F000B25AD67D720@usera594fda0bf"
type="cite">
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;">
<div id="ygrp-text">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid;"
dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message
----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="rongretlarson@comcast.net"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca"
href="mailto:kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca">kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="karnask@hotmail.com"
href="mailto:karnask@hotmail.com">karnask@hotmail.com</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar-production@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Monday,
January 02, 2012 4:57 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Stoves] Biochar as an Agricultural Tool Was: Re:
[biochar]allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -Unfulfilled
Promises in Cameroon</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">Four Lists, cc Kevin , <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="karnask@hotmail.com"
href="mailto:karnask@hotmail.com" target="_blank">jim
karnofski</a><br>
<br>
1. This is in large part to give thanks to Jim
Karnofski, for his responses. I find little to
disagree with in Kevin's remarks (for maybe the first
time) - on the need for more information. But I
don't think he is asking for the right information. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## The information I was attempting to elicit
was information that would excite any rational Farmer,
with the prospects of increasing his annual income.
Perhaps you could rephrase my questions, and ask them
in a better manner?</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">And I think he is misinterpreting whatever he
has been reading - as he seems to feel the Biochar
community (only partly represented by these lists) are
ready to endorse any form of char on any soil for any
crop. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## Not at all!! The IBI clearly distinguishes
between various feed sources for pyrolysis, and
restricts their recommendations for chars that can be
called "biochar." That is a good thing. It brings some
knowledge and consistency into "biochar."</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> I challenge Kevin to cite any example of the
overselling he accuses biochar proponents of. I doubt
there is any farmer anywhere on earth who is stupid
enough to place a lot of unknown material on very much
of his/her soil without the proof easily available
from a few square meter test (following an even-easier
few pot trial, and still easier germination tests).</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## OK... I offer the paragraph you just wrote
as evidence of overselling biochar!! :-) Firstly, pot
trials are known to give results that can differ from
results of larger scale field applications. Secondly,
there is no way that a Farmer can easily get truly
meaningful results from such tests unless he knows a
great deal about biochar, his particular soil
deficiencies, what other additives he should be
adding, and in what quantities. What I am asking for
is some guidelines for what the Farmer needs to know,
to structure meaningful tests, when such test work
could have a reasonable potential for improving his
annual economic situation.<br>
<br>
2. Kevin quotes one sentence out of the report Jim
Karnofski has recommended, which reads <br>
<br>
<em> "Current knowledge about the effects of
adding biochar to Australian agricultural soils is
not</em><br style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<em>sufficient to support recommending its use."<br>
<br>
</em>I hope that Kevin's intent was not meant
the (cherry-picking) way it <span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;TEXT-DECORATION: underline;">could</span> be
taken - that current knowledge recommends <span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">against</span> its use</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## Speaking of "cherry picking", the quote in
context is as follows:</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">" # This 63 page report seems to be balanced
and sensible. I would draw attention to a quote from
the summary: <font face="MyriadPro-Light" size="2"><font
face="MyriadPro-Light" size="2"> </font></font></div>
<p style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;" align="left"><font size="3"><strong>"Current
knowledge about the effects of adding biochar to
Australian agricultural soils is not sufficient to
support recommending its use."</strong></font></p>
<p style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;" align="left"> <font size="3"># This would seem
to support my inquiry for more guidelines on where
to consider using biochar, and where to avoid using
it. </font> <font size="3">All I am asking is for
more knowledge and guidelines to support
recommending its use."</font></p>
<p style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;" align="left"> </p>
<p style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;" align="left"><font size="3">## The first line
of my quote acknowledges this as a good report. It
basically invites an interested reader to actually
read teh full report. Who is going to pass up a
"balanced report?" The second sentence draws
attention to the need for caution, and the final two
snetences simply call for further information. I
would suggest that this is rather balanced, and is
not at all a "biochar slam."</font></p>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><br>
<br>
Indeed the very next sentence shows that was not the
intent of the report authors:<span style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;"><br>
<br>
"<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">However</span>, international and
Australian research will</span> <span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">aid decisions about its
use when results become available."</span><br>
<br>
## OK!! This snetence seems to support exactly what I
was asking for!! What's the problem?</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> Nobody I know in the Biochar world thinks
we have the all the needed answers today. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## Very true. Any Farmer asking anyone in teh
biochar world a specific question about biochar
economics is very likely to get a vague and
nos-specific reply.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">And again I ask Kevin (or anyone) for examples
of over-selling by any Biochar proponent. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## See above.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">A good place to send me is to
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.biochar-international.org">www.biochar-international.org</a> - which is listing 15
-18 new technical peer-reviewed articles <span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">every month</span>. Who among these
authors (or any cite at the IBI site) are overly
positive?</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## OK: See: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/Technical%20Bulletin%20Biochar%20Tree%20Planting.pdf">http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/Technical%20Bulletin%20Biochar%20Tree%20Planting.pdf</a></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">This, in my opinion, is a responsibly written
report, in that it stresses the need for testing.
However, I think it can be improved upon, in that it
has a potential to do biochar a disservice for the
following reasons:</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">1: It says nothing about geographical
limitations. Benefits may be greater in tropical and
sub-tropical climates than in temperate or northern
climates.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">2: It says nothing about what advantages
biochar can bring to a soil.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">3: It says nothing about the desirability of a
soil analysis, to determine if biochar can actually
help a problem or deficiency the soil has.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">4: This report suggests an application rate in
the range of about 1% or less have been used in field
crops: As I recall, the Japanese have used about 1% on
tree crops, while field crops seem to do better with
5% to 10%. Big difference. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">5: Only biochar is shown in the photos, and
there is no mention of the need for other additives,
such as vegetative matter, compost, manure,
fertilizer, lime, etc.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">6: It says nothing about the "time factor", in
that results in second and subsequent years are likely
to be better than in teh first year</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## I do know from my own field tests that
biochar alone retarded growth in my tests, giving
worse results than the untreated control plot. My
results were much better in plots with added seaweed,
but still the results with seaweed plus biochar were
not as good as with seaweed alone. The failure to
mention these (what I consider to be) other important
and relevant factors could lead a Farmer or Grower to
the wrong conclusions. Thats why I feel this specific
IBI report oversells biochar and could be improved
upon. <br style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<br>
3. But the real issue to me remains the fact that
many (most?) biochar proponents believe that the
sequestration benefits of Biochar justify (for moral
and ethical reasons) transfer payments from developed
to developing countries.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## Lets first see if biochar can "stand on its
own two feet" and be a direct benefit to the Farmer,
before worrying about moral and ethical
considerations. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> Climate deniers reject this out of hand, it
seems - as they have concluded for reasons I cannot
comprehend that anthropogenic global warming (AGW) is
a hoax. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## Whether AGW is a hoax or not is another
issue. The immediate issue of direct concern is
whether or not the use of biochar is economically
advantageous to the Farmer.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> This report, as does Kevin thankfully),
acknowledges that there is plenty of evidence that
Biochar can help in carbon negativity. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## Certainly, it can. However, that is another
issue, separate from whether or not biochar is a good
investment for the Farmer.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> So I think the main Biochar issue today is
whether there is any cheaper, more socially
beneficial, less costly means of removing excess
atmospheric carbon. I think the experiments to date
are mostly limited because of the active work of
climate deniers to prevent funding. I hope someone
can convince me there is another reason (with
published citations I can research).</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## Another way to look at it is that there is
only so much Research money to go around. Perhaps if
less was spent on Climate Research, more would be
available to advance the use of biochar as a money
maker for the Farmer.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><br>
<br>
4. To counterbalance Kevin's single-sentence
quote,I think it would help in this dialog to give the
complete <span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;TEXT-DECORATION: underline;">"Conclusions"</span>
section from the recent Australian report. I have
emphasized the positives found in these three
paragraphs - that (to me) justify the conclusion that
Biochar is likely to have a very important role is
world agriculture - and needs lots of experimentation
from the experts and amateurs alike.<br>
<br>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;"> <span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">13
Conclusions</span></span><br style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">
<br>
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"> "Application of
biochar to agricultural land for soil amelioration
and agricultural productivity</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">improvements is <span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">not a new</span> phenomenon. Terra
preta soils in the Amazonian Basin are</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">characterised by <span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">highly fertile</span> dark soils
created from burning crop stubble and other</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">household wastes <span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">over thousands of years</span>. More
recently, biochar production from agricultural</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">waste products has
been assessed in an attempt to replicate these
fertile soils.</span>"<br style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">
<strong>(RWL: I think that the experience in the
Amazon over millennia are the primary reason that
most Biochar proponents use for justifying our
enthusiasm for Biochar. Productivity improvement
factors today of 2 and 3 and land value increases of
5 and 6 after 500 and more years ought to count for
something.</strong> <strong> Why believe BFW or
other detractors who say modern science can't
duplicate that?</strong> </div>
<strong></strong></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">## <strong>You are overselling biochar again.
Biochar is NOT Terra Preta, and it is misleading to
suggest that it is.</strong>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><br>
<br>
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">"A number of
benefits have been identified within the literature;
biochar </span><span style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">has been found</span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"> to</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">improve
agriculturally significant soil parameters such as </span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;TEXT-DECORATION: underline;">soil pH, cation
exchange capacity</span><br style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;TEXT-DECORATION: underline;">and soil water
holding capacity</span><span style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">. Researchers have found the increase in
these performance</span><br style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">parameters has
improved </span><span style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">nitrogen use efficiency</span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"> and therefore </span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;TEXT-DECORATION: underline;">crop productivity</span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"> in limited</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">field trials.
Further, biochar has the potential to reduce
greenhouse gas emissions through</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;TEXT-DECORATION: underline;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;TEXT-DECORATION: underline;">carbon
sequestration</span><span style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">, as well as potentially </span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;TEXT-DECORATION: underline;">decreasing methane
and nitrous oxide emissions</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">from the soil.</span><br
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;"> (RWL: I have
re-read Kevin's responses below - and don't find </span><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">ANY</span><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"> of these benefits mentioned. Half that
number of benefits would get most people excited.</span>)</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><strong>## These are good aspects of biochar,
indeed. However, the claims are conceptual, and not
quantified.<br>
</strong> <br style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"> "Although much
research to date has been promising, knowledge gaps
remain. Through</span><br style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">current government
investment in large biochar projects, such as the
Climate Change Research</span><br style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">Program, researchers
have </span><span style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">amassed an impressive amount</span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"> of data and
information, which</span><br style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">will form the </span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;TEXT-DECORATION: underline;">ideal base</span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"> to further research.
With this information, the net benefits in both</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">plant productivity
improvements and greenhouse gas reductions from
using biochar may be</span><br style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">assessed before
widescale application. However, further research is
needed to identify optimal</span><br
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">application rates,
biochar quality parameters and effects of biochar on
chemical efficacy. Once</span><br style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">further research</span> is undertaken
and the </span><span style="FONT-STYLE:
italic;FONT-WEIGHT: bold;TEXT-DECORATION:
underline;">knowledge gaps closed</span><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">, biochar may play a
role in</span><br style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">improving
productivity and environmental sustainability issues
in Australian agriculture.</span><br>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">RWL: at the
recent Kyoto Biochar meeting ,Tom Miles and I and a
few others on this list heard Dr. Evelyn Krull of
CSIRO give an outstanding talk on what they are
learning in Australia. She predicted generalizable
results in a few more years. The data is coming -
and as Jim Karnofski is emphasizing below, we should
not be surprised that it hasn't happened
immediately. This is by far the most complicated
technical topic I have ever worked on. But the need
for it, our good fortune that it was used for
thousands of years in the Amazon, and the great
progress made by the soil science community is
enough for me to retain my enthusiasm for Biochar -
until proven misplaced.</span></div>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;"></span></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;"></span> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">## With all the
vagueness and nebulosity associated with the above
statement, it is understandable why a Farmer should be
cautious about spending his limited resources on
biochar. Reasonable guidelines would give him a
rational basis for deciding if biochar might be
economically advantageous enough for him, to do
testing.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><br>
<br>
5. There are about 100 references at the end of
this report. Those who are derogatory toward Biochar
(BFW and a few allies) have never published one (I
think) in a peer-reviewed journal. I ask again for
something/anything I can read to justify other than
enthusiasm for rapidly expanding the little that we are
doing in Biochar.<br>
<br>
<br>
6. <font face="Arial">Kevin's last sentence below
summarizes his view I think - so I will only
concentrate on it:<br>
<span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;">"These reports
are no way to sell a Farmer on using biochar!! :-)
Would you know of ANY URL's that would give a Farmer
a rational and economic basis for justifying a
biochar test? Otherwise, the Farmers are sure to be
naysayers."</span><br>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">(RWL: I maintain
that Kevin is putting the onus on scientists who are
(fortunately) too smart to give what he asks. </span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">## Scientists... Agricultural Extension
Officers... biochar producers... NGO's... it doesn't
matter who gives the Farmer sound advice, just so
long as it is sound, and specific enough that teh
Farmer can see that there may be a place in his
operation, to warrant a sensible biochar test.</span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"> This new Australian report, like virtually
every one before it, gives plenty of reasons for any
farmer who can get his/her hands on a lttile char
(which is in short supply) to try a few experiments
pertinent to his/her situation. </span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">## Don't forget the important sentence in
their summary of their Report:</span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">
<p style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR:
#000000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;" align="left"><font
size="3"><strong>"Current knowledge about the
effects of adding biochar to Australian
agricultural soils is not sufficient to
support recommending its use."</strong></font></p>
</span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">The scientific literature is almost sure to
not be pertinent (at this stage) to his/her specific
char/soil/crop combination. </span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">## In the absence of specific
recommendations, the only thing we can rely on is
scientific literature. If it cannot be relied on as
being pertinent, biochar is in big trouble.</span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">Smart farmers and soil scientists all over
the world are already doing these tests - and
reporting generally positive results. </span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">## I have yet to see a report by a smart
Farmer confirming that he has applied biochar to a
second and third field.</span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">Getting and reporting a negative result can
be a big help as well - as clearly too many don't
know at all what to do, or couldn't get the right
char, etc. </span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"># I was criticized for reporting negative
results from a competently run biochar test. :-)</span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">That is the nature of this type of very
difficult research - vary the parameters and follow
the leads the following year on what does best the
first year. </span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;">## If there are that many unknowns and teh
research is very difficult, wouldn't you agree that
biochar is being "over-promoted", or at teh very
least, that it is being "prematurely promoted?"</span></font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"></span></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"> Only climate deniers, who are unable to see
the true economics at play here, seem not to
understand the need at this stage of knowledge for
experiments - not prescriptions.</span></font></div>
<font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;"></span></font></blockquote>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid;"
dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold;"># I am sure that some Farmers are Climate
Change Believers, and that some are Climate Change
Disbelievers. Whatever. The important thing is "Is it
economically sensible for the Farmer to test and use
biochar?"
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR:
#000000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;"><br>
Again I ask for citations so I can understand
any opposite view.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR:
#000000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR:
#000000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;">## It seems that you are
allowing the tail (Climate Change concerns) to wag
the dog (the use of biochar as a soil amendment to
improve agriculture). Nobody seems to be able to
take a responsible stand on where the use of biochar
is likely to give an economic benefit to the Farmer.
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR:
#000000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR:
#000000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;">Best wishes,</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR:
#000000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR:
#000000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;">Kevin</div>
</span><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"></span></font><span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic;"></span>
<div style="FONT-STYLE: italic;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR:
#000000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;" dir="ltr"> <span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;"> </span><br
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Ron</span><br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;">
<hr id="zwchr"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Kevin"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca"><kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca></a><br>
<b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Sunday, January 1, 2012 11:56:58 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Biochar as an Agricultural
Tool Was: Re: [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa:
Biochar -Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"><font face="Arial">Dear Jim</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px
solid;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message
----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="karnask@hotmail.com"
href="mailto:karnask@hotmail.com" target="_blank">jim
karnofski</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com"
target="_blank">Richard Hard</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
target="_blank">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a> ;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar-production@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com"
target="_blank">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
December 31, 2011 3:59 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> RE:
Biochar as an Agricultural Tool Was: Re: [Stoves]
[biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -Unfulfilled
Promises in Cameroon</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span> </span>
<div id="ygrp-text">
<div dir="ltr">Dear All,<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr id="stopSpelling"> From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:karnask@hotmail.com"
target="_blank">karnask@hotmail.com</a><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com"
target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
Subject: RE: Biochar as an Agricultural Tool Was:
Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa:
Biochar -Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon<br>
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 19:54:53 +0000<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">I see Kevin as a thoughtful and
skeptical, but not well-read </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="3"># I
have been reading about Terra Preta and
Biochar for the past 6 to 8 years. Perhaps I
have not been reading the right material?</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">and Kevin seems
to see agriculture as a science with certainty
as if it always has black and white answers.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"># No. We do not
need such "black or white" answers... some
good general and rational guidelines would
suffice.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"> The more you know about soils, the
more respect for uncertainty you have as the
chemical nature of soil is infinite. <br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="3">#
Agreed. However, we must be able to quantify
the areas where biochar could most likely be
of benefit, and the areas where it would least
likely to be of benefit. At least, we would
then be able to do test work that had a higher
likelihood of success.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
As far as farm economics, time and testing will
tell, but I am certain the answer will be more
pragmatic than some farmers can stand. For
instance, a recommendation might be, add biochar
as you can afford, building up to 1% in your
lifetime and leave the next increment to the
next farmer over the next generation. The
efficiency and effectiveness of the soil is
improved with the added carbon. And Carbon, by
definition, is organic. Carbon compounds need
not be edible to be considered organic.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="3"># I
would respectfully suggest that while biomass
matter is organic, biochar is organic matter
that has been mineralized. It does nor
function in soil the same way that true
organic matter does. </font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
I encourage Kevin to carefully read the
scientific table-top research studies from
Australia, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://adl.brs.gov.au/data/wareho%20use/biochar9abcm001/biochar9abcm00101/TR.2011.06_Biochar_v1.0.0.pdf"
target="_blank">http://adl.brs.gov.au/data/warehouse/biochar9abcm001/biochar9abcm00101/TR.2011.06_Biochar_v1.0.0.pdf</a><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="3">.</font></div>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="3"># This 63 page
report seems to be balanced and sensible. I
would draw attention to a quote from the
summary: <font face="MyriadPro-Light" size="2"><font
face="MyriadPro-Light" size="2">
<p align="left"><font size="3"><strong>"Current
knowledge about the effects of adding
biochar to Australian agricultural
soils is not sufficient to support
recommending its use."</strong></font></p>
<p align="left"> <font size="3"># This would
seem to support my inquiry for more
guidelines on where to consider using
biochar, and where to avoid using it. </font> <font
size="3">All I am asking is for more
knowledge and guidelines to support
recommending its use. </font></p>
</font></font></font>
<p align="left"><br>
and the US, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.biochar-us.org/pdf%20files/biochar_report_lowres.pdf"
target="_blank">http://www.biochar-us.org/pdf%20files/biochar_report_lowres.pdf</a>,
for a reasonable up-to-date summary of the best
known scientific evidence of why it was used by
the ancients for MILLENNIA. <br>
</p>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="3"># Pages
3 to 5 of this 84 page report give good
insight into where biochar could be a benefit
to Agriculture. The bulk of this report extols
biochar's energy and climate change
advantages. However, there is nothing specific
that would enable a Farmer to make a rational
decision on whether or not to bother with a
biochar test.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
I am pragmatic enough to hedge on my own to
incrementally add biochar as I can.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"># <font face="Arial">What were the
reasons that led you to use biochar? Which of
biochar's features do you feel are of benefit
to you? Do you feel that you are getting a
good financial return on your investment in
biochar additions? If so, what would you
estimate the simple Return on Investment to
be? <br>
</font> <br>
As far as having a clear answer with diagnosis
and intervention with organic soils,
intervention is going to be harder to achieve as
the infinite nature of an organic soil does not
lend itself to the very simple Chemistry 101 of
the past Leibig-like "soil science". The present
and future complex soil science will consider
the soil as an in finite mixture of compounds
and generally unknown bacteria, fungi, plasmids,
prions, and elemental compounds, with
unmeasurable symbiotic interactions, requiring
meta-genetics, to get a glimpse as to what might
be happening in any given micro environment.
Good luck with funding basic organic soil
science as the money is not there. It is the
Agro-chemical-industrial complex that sets the
priorities with funding and that is not
compatable with organic enhancing measures like
biochar. It may have to be up to us as Citizen
Scientists to get the job done during this stage
of our societies growth and development.<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="3">#
OK.... given the complex nature of organic
soils, and the probable difficulty of
evaluating results in a meaningful and
transferable manner, would it be best to avoid
biochar application on organic soils, and
focus biochar testing on soils with a lower
organic content? Concerning your suggestion
that "Big Ag" is choking off funding for
biochar research, perhaps effort should be
focused on finding ways to make "Organic
Fertilisers" incorporating biochar, as
suggested by Anil Rajvanshi?</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
We should all get used to painting with a broad
brush, still using the Chem 101, but using a
broad brush to address problems. The ancients
threw everything back into the soil, feeding it
like the soil is an omnivore, cultivating like
it needed to respirate and respecting it like
their life depended upon it. <br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="3"># There
is a huge message here. Terra Preta is said to
have worked wonderfully, and to have been
extremely fertile. You seem to have described
"Organic Gardening with a Charcoal Addition."
:-) </font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
The soil has been treated lik e dirt for too
long, just a petri-dish medium with N-P-K needs,
etc. One needs to treat it like the living
ecosystem that it is. Biochar has been proven to
be effective and not harmful in any soil for
advancing the quantity and the diversity of
life. So, in my organic soil it is part of my
compost regimen because it works well for me as
it seemed to have work well for others for
thousands of years.<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="3"># I
would suggest that the attitude "...treating
soil like dirt..." outlook took hold with the
advent of industrially produced fertilizers,
and the reduced attention to the importance of
soil organic matter.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
We need the naysayers, but they need to read and
practice, too. <br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"># Well, if a
Farmer that was interested in the potential
use of biochar on his farm read the above two
Reports, he would probably be left with the
messages:</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">1: Australian
Report: There are many unknowns, and biochar
is unlikely to be economically advantageous.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">2: American
Report: Since only 3 out of 84 pages in this
report suggest a potential for agricultural
benefit from using biochar, it is probably not
not worth considering it further at this time.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"># These reports
are no way to sell a Farmer on using biochar!!
:-) Would you know of ANY URL's that would
give a Farmer a rational and economic basis
for justifying a biochar test? Otherwise, the
Farmers are sure to be naysayers.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">Thanks!</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
Jim<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<hr id="stopSpelling"> To:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
CC: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a><br>
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:52:15 -0400<br>
Subject: Biochar as an Agricultural Tool Was: Re:
[Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar
-Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon<br>
<br>
<span> </span>
<div id="ecxygrp-mlmsg">
<div id="ecxygrp-msg">
<div id="ecxygrp-text">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear All</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Biochar is not a
panacea, contrary to what its
enthusiastic supporters infer. It works,
and is beneficial in some circumstances,
and it fails to be beneficial in others.</font><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;COLOR: #000000;FONT-SIZE:
12pt;"> <snip, as not covering the following><br>
</div>
<p color="#000000" avgcert="" align="left">No virus found
in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4718 -
Release Date: 01/02/12</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
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