<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Not to be facetious about the bag lady in the prior post, but there has to be some practical alternative. Biogas is said to be too expensive to compress. The comparison was made to LPG for transportation. Like most one line conclusions it may or may not be though, ... In different circumstances. What amount of energy per unit atmosphere of compression is expended? Is it a linear increase with increasing pressure ? Lets have that plot then talk about practicality of transport per various volumetric requirements of the rest of the 99%, like the lady carrying the bag so, perhaps she is not left doing so, so to speak.</div><div>I have heard about an intrepid country inventor, Harold somebody, who used his refrigerator compressor to generate about 200 psi (12+ atmospheres) off <span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">from his chicken manure</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">, to run his car around his town. What is a practical minimum compression for transport and say week long domestic use? Would an extended tank -in-tank biogas digestor, properly ballasted and suspended by ropes on a basic windlass, generating up to say 15 psi, sufficient to contain the required volume in an inner tube? (Where is Boyle when we need him! ) . Even the simple wrapping of sealed plastic bags filled with biogas, with ubiquitous inner tube tire rubber strips can generate substantial compressive forces... .</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "> It all comes down to time and effort versus cost and time of alternatives---assuming of course that the so called beneficiary wants it and can function as a community member pursuing it. </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">Having lived on a tank in well system for four years in Tanzania, am all for a practical solution.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">Richard Stanley</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><a href="http://Www.legacyfound.org">Www.legacyfound.org</a></span></div><div><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Jan 9, 2012, at 12:06, Ronald Hongsermeier <<a href="mailto:rwhongser@web.de">rwhongser@web.de</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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Dear Crispin,<br>
<br>
On 09.01.2012 19:02, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:052f01cccef8$cd6fcfd0$684f6f70$@gmail.com" type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Good
to hear from you in the new year.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">></span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I
think you misunderstood the article. The bag is only for
transport and temporary storage. They take the empty (and
some dung) to a biogas producer, get it filled and go home
to cook with it. It is supposed to be about a day's cookin'
worth.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
am with David House </span><code><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.completebiogas.com">www.completebiogas.com</a>
</span></code><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">on
this one: it is a portable digester with nothing but gas in
it! </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">He
writes, “</span>It's actually a gas bag, not a digester.
Even so, it's an excellent innovation, and a worthy addition
to the armamentarium, wherever it can serve as a means of
transport in connection with a large digester near any large
population. <br>
<br>
And as well, from my point of view, it's also a bit ironic,
since the very sturdy bag, selling for ~$US38, could actually
<i>be</i> a digester if it had two additional pipes (an inlet
and an outlet), and further that since it's about a cubic
meter in volume, it would produce about a cubic meter of gas
every day, if fed and kept warm.<span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">”</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
That may well be, but, not having seen the bag, it may well need
some additional features apart from two pipes. You'd have to get
solid materials in and out, etc. Also, I think that his proviso:
"...wherever it can serve as a means of transport ... large digester
... any large population." is overwrought. When compared with
walking 10 km with 20 or more kg on your head, a 3kg bag is gonna
add up to 30 € pretty quick. I'm not dissing the idea of making a
digester of that size, just have the impression from the relative
clause that he is degrading the usefulness of the idea
unnecessarily.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:052f01cccef8$cd6fcfd0$684f6f70$@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I think David is working on a bag digester
himself. The transport of gas is interesting. If it turned
out to be attractive as a cooking fuel (and delivery system)
the users would perhaps be convinced to install their own
systems. I am not convinced that a minibus would accept the
gas ‘package’ without fear or charge.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
I think they limited the size to keep it a relatively manageable
size.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:052f01cccef8$cd6fcfd0$684f6f70$@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">It is a lot lighter than a load of wood and the
walking distance might be less. I wonder if a tire on a rim
might be as good, and could be pumped by hand. Will a tire
hold a useful volume of gas if hand pumped?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Even if the walking distance was more, one would not have the same
fatigue. i think you'd have to work pretty hard to compress a whole
m^3 into anything like a regular tire-- and a tractor tire with rim
would be more taxing to manage than a load of firewood on one's
head. ;-) If this was done in cooperation with schools, they could
even get the transport with larger school children on the way home
from school, delivery before school, pick up the bag and go home
after school. hoping you're doing well.<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
ron<br>
w<br>
h<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:052f01cccef8$cd6fcfd0$684f6f70$@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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