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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Crispin,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>See below:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 02, 2012 11:04 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] PCIA den Haag<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>First, thanks for the offer to do fundamental research that will provide input to the development of better test methods. If you have the means to have them published, that will be best.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My immediate suggestion is that you look at the heat content of typical charcoal residues from known wood and known stoves. For example a Rocket stove burning Douglas Fir as is common at Aprovecho. That is a particular stove type and the fuel is apparently constant. The question arises: what is the heat content of residue char and does it vary with the initial moisture level?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We need to know the Carbon and Hydrogen content to determine the heat content without having to resort to a bomb calorimeter which is time consuming even if inexpensive. The heat potential can be calculated pretty well if you have the H2 and C content.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[*]How much char-ash left may depend on fuel type, moisture and stove performance or when the cooking (or task) was complete. But I would think the test method for determining energy left would not be concerned with these. Only make-up of the char-ash mix. Some chars and ash have a lot of carbonates. I’m sure the carbon comes from the biomass but not sure how that calculates in the energy left. A calorimeter I think would show none with CaCO3 but was energy used to create it? And we (our lab) would need a grant to move into research not directly related to projects we hope to make a profit on. And there are so many. <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>From the gasifiers we know that the amount of char left varies greatly with moisture content. It is very likely that the heat content per g is also variable with the initial moisture content because ‘there is something else going on’. Rice hull char has a very low energy value, but what is it? Lots of post-grad work in there for the willing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dr Penn Taylor (we can call him that now) outlined one method for determining the accuracy of two WBT’s. There were several steps or points that led to the total. Each point is an error that needs to be constrained. If a test method has fewer error points, the final result is more precise. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[*]Looking for a limiting factor and correcting it then on to the next is the way to approach it as he is doing. <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>WBT’s are not inaccurate because the measurements are not made precisely, but because the task given is complex and depends a great deal on the skill of the operator. One issue is the determination of heating efficiency of a stove. It could be the % of heat that goes from the fire to the pot (or the room if space heating) or it could be the % of heat that comes from the fire and is retained by the pot so some work is done (like heating the water). Those numbers are not the same. It could be the average efficiency including the ignition of the tinder and kindling all the way to the boiling point. That is a very different number because the stove body might absorb a lot of the heat initially. Also, the skill of the lighter of the fire (the cook) might be widely variable, introducing a systematic error. Similarly with emissions. If the skill of the cook is high, the fire will start cleanly in some stoves. In others it makes nearly no difference. Should dumb cooks be penalised? Or should we penalise the stove?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[*]This is the same issue as with many of these complex problems. Like determining if biochar improves crop production by adding to one field and not to the next. One will always be different than the other but relating it to biochar when there are so many other variables… They need to look at what biochar will, or will not, do and stop there. Then the field trial can be designed around one or two of these improvements biochar makes and it might show better crop production or $ saving of water or fertilizer. . <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>One of the reasons to report the net heat transfer efficiency (the efficiency of the whole system) at different power levels is that not only is it a very useful metric for creating a performance curve of efficiency v.s. power, but it can be done quite precisely with simple equipment. You could easily make a determination within 3% in your lab right now. But you can’t light a stove within 3% each time on different days using a variety of fuels.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The heat transfer efficiency is largely an indication of the performance of the stove body with that pot(s) on it. It is a very valuable metric because if you make a change, you can see how the efficiency was affected. If that is determined under ‘constant conditions’, meaning a fire that is not currently changing in power level, the result can be really accurate, probably within 1% using a thermocouple that is accurate to 0.2%. You get the idea? So when reporting how a stove ‘performs’ one can generate accurate numbers of great value.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Determining the emissions from a stove during an ‘ignition phase’ (lighting to stable, full power) is a clearly defined section of a cooking event. Again it can be determined accurately by making sure the systematic errors are minimised and repeating the procedure a number of times, reducing experimental error (like fuel variation). Using this approach one can build up a characterisation of the stove that is precise and useful.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[*]It seems that the ignition stage is the problem in the lab and in the field regarding producing particles. Therefore it seems we should be designing a ‘fuel starter’ made of distillate from the fuel in another operation (or something like that) that when lite will burn fast, clean and pre-heat the stove before the biomass is applied. Like a Richard Stanley briquette made of special material. Perhaps that simple first step could do more to reduce health issues than making improved stoves. <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dr Nat Johnson (we can almost call him that) showed us a chart where he had the efficiency of a group of stoves plotted twice: once with the charcoal subtraction invoked and once by pretending the char remaining was tossed. The coefficient of variance (COV) with the (inaccurate) char heat content included was huge. When the char was ignored the COV dropped by 50%, the results were obviously more accurate (looking at the graph) and he wondered why we introduce such large errors into an otherwise pretty good test section. We may have to consider char, but how it is handled can be discussed to limit these large error bars.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The best way to start this process following the watershed IWAgreement is to ask first what the buyer (often a Donor) wants. They probably want to know if the stove they are selecting will perform as advertised. That is a starting point for selecting methods. If the method does not address the end goal, it has no value to anyone. If a designer wants to know what efficiency the user will experience, the test (or that section of it) has to provide the required information. You lead the rest of your life like that, why not stoves too??<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[*]The buyer will know nothing about stoves and have no idea what to ask for – except the obvious you have states. They will not know what the results mean. Only what we tell them with a rating system or picture diagram of compared stoves. At least that is my experience working with regulators and end users. We need to tell them what they want. : )<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>42 Hangar Way<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Watsonville, CA 95076<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(831) 724-5244 tel<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(831) 724-3188 fax<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>frank@bioCharlab.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]">[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Shields<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 02, 2012 6:50 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] PCIA den Haag<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Crispin,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Perhaps lengthy but very well written and states the problems in rating stoves. All the work in the past (WBT etc.) were useful measures of a small part of the big picture. Starting with test methods that are simple and work on small units of the process are key. Then they need to work when used in the bigger lab scale of testing stoves. Then verified they represent what happen in the field.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>What would be useful is a list of the unit tests that need to be worked on. Then have labs suggest ideas for research and have money available for the research. Determining energy in ash-char mixes, carbon energy in particulates leaving the combustion box, and location of formation of these particles are a few I can think of. If we can develop simple methods that can be used by most labs that have been verified to work when correlated using costly lab equipment is a start.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So much to do. Getting organized as to what needs to be done by posting a flow chart or tree. Then have a way to include all that want to contribute with suggestions of procedure etc. by e-mail directed to a sub-number of the tree. The ones making decisions can look at the list of all suggestions and move appropriately. But I am sure they have their own process. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>