<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">Stovers:<br><br> This being sent per request from Paul Olivier.<br><br> Some new good information here. Credit given to Dr. Belonio. There have been a few other intermediate messages from Dr. Olviier.<br><br> Below, the inventor of the Pyromid stove should have been given as Paul Hait.(charcoal-using, highly reflective). <br><br>Ron<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Paul Olivier" <paul.olivier@esrla.com><br><b>To: </b>rongretlarson@comcast.net<br><b>Sent: </b>Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:43:28 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] the 150 gasifier in operation in Vietnam<br><br>Ron,<br><br>See my comments.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 10:36 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial">Paul -<br><br> Maybe you hit the wrong "reply"? I think this additional data would be of considerable help to the full stoves list. <br></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br>I meant to send it to the whole list.<br>Can you resend it for me?<br>I do not know what I did wrong.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial"><br> We don't pay enough attention to the heat transfer part of stoves. I would like to see a "Kelly kettle" (interior "flue") used with your new radiator/convector. Nat Mulcahy has a wonderful video showing how fast he can boil with such - faster than his microwave, he says.<br>
<br> If you get a chance to repeat, it would help many of us to try to compare the power levels through a bit more data: weight of propane consumed over some time period, amperage and/or wattage or kWh, and weight of rice husk consumed. The time element tells a lot - but there are other things going on (such as how high you can set your fan level).<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>The idea of how fast it takes to bring a liter of water to a boil does not give a complete picture.<br>For example, it does not take into account the diameter of the gasifier or the speed of the fan.<br>
I could turn the fan very low and surely it might take more than 12 minutes to bring a liter of water to a boil.<br><br>I already equipped my 250 gasifier with a burner housing and a wire mesh dome.<br>This gasifier puts out almost 3 times the power of the 150.<br>
If I did a boiling test with this gasifier, this would surely be cheating.<br><br>Belonio did a boiling test with his 150 gasifier on one liter of water, <br> and he reported an average time of over 8 minutes.<br>I have the same reactor diameter and burner hole pattern as Belonio.<br>
But I surrounded the burner with a burner housing, <br> and over the burner housing there is the wire mesh dome.<br>The housing draws in secondary air,<br>and a bit more secondary air is drawn in through the wire mesh at the base of the dome.<br>
<br>On the left you see the burner and burner housing,<br> and on the right you see the wire mesh dome:<br><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Boiling/IMG_1024.JPG" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Boiling/IMG_1024.JPG</a><br>
Here you see the burner, burner housing and the wire mesh dome assembled on top of the reactor:<br><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Boiling/IMG_1022.JPG" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Boiling/IMG_1022.JPG</a><br>
<br>But the heart of my burner is the Belonio burner.<br>I have no idea how he got this right.<br>I changed the diameter of the burner holes by a half mm in both directions,<br> and this does not give a good result.<br>It must be 4.5 mm, just as Belonio specified.<br>
Perhaps Belonio simply worked out the burner hole diameter and the pattern of holes simply by trial and error.<br><br>Also I changed the the air entry gap between the burner and the burner housing several times,<br> and this does not give a good result.<br>
Gaps of 2 and 4 mm do not work.<br>But a gap of 6 mm works quite well.<br>I have no idea why this is so.<br><br>Now I am experimenting with the wire mesh of the dome:<br> with the diameter of the wire and the opening between wires.<br>
If the aperture is too small,<br> I do not think that the draw of secondary air through the burner housing and wire mesh dome will function correctly.<br>If the aperture is too big,<br> the gas goes through the wire mesh and ignites on the outside of the dome.<br>
When this happens, the wire mesh does not glow red hot.<br><br>Paul Anderson is at times impatient with me.<br>He says that I need to start selling rice hulls gasifiers as soon as I can.<br>But I do not think that I will ever have a gasifier that I will call my own.<br>
I found a factory in Saigon that has started making molds to cut and press the various parts of the 150 gasifier.<br>I intend to sell these parts to any workshop that wishes to buy them.<br><br>Also I had to change the size of the grate holes.<br>
And I finally found, what I think, is the best way to detach and attach the small 40 x 40 mm fan.<br><br>In the end I think that I will simply post fabrication drawings of the 150 gasifier on my website for all to use.<br>
I received just about everything from Belonio, and I will in turn pass on what I have found to everyone else.<br><br>Here are some recent jpegs.<br><br>The burner and burner housing:<br><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/013.jpg" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/013.jpg</a><br>
The wire mesh dome on top:<br><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/012.jpg" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/012.jpg</a><br><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/006.jpg" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/006.jpg</a><br>
The detachable fan:<br><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/014.jpg" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/014.jpg</a><br>The complete gasifier:<br><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/004.jpg" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/004.jpg</a><br>
The gasifier set within an enclosure:<br><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/008.jpg" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Jpegs/008.jpg</a><br><br>Please share this email, if you wish, with the stove list.<br>
<br>Thanks.<br>Paul<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial"><br> My modern electric stove has a radiant heat transfer through a tough "glass/ceramic" which is also conducting (not convecting [much]). We haven't been paying enough attention to that mode. <br>
<br> In the early days of the stove list, an entrepreneur (name forgotten) in Oregon, talked a lot of his "Pyromid", which paid a lot of attention to briquette placement and proper angles of highly reflective stainless sheet steel walls in a charcoal cooker. Not anything since that I can remember<br>
<br> I was also reminded of the use of the thin, flimsy mesh in gas lanterns. Maybe there is some way to change the frequency spectrum? You have raised a fascinating new topic.<br><br>Ron<br><br><hr><b>From: </b>"Paul Olivier" <<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Ron Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Friday, March 2, 2012 11:25:15 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] the 150 gasifier in operation in Vietnam<div><div class="h5"><br><br>Ron,<br><br>See comments.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Ron Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div>Paul and lists</div><div><br></div><div> Congratulations on the new design with a mesh. I think you have achieved the nicest looking flame yet of any stove ever described on this list.</div>
</div>
</blockquote><div><br>
<p class="MsoNormal">On February 22, 2012 I did three boiling tests.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The first test was carried out on a normal propane gas burner that I have in my kitchen.<a href="#135d934564ae25b5_135d72f7bad81d52__ftn1" name="135d934564ae25b5_135d72f7bad81d52__ftnref1" title=""><span><span><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Cambria","serif""></span></span></span></span></a><a href="http://youtu.be/w8OdW_GEhWo" target="_blank"><br>
</a></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://youtu.be/w8OdW_GEhWo" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/w8OdW_GEhWo</a> <br></p><p class="MsoNormal">Here it took 6 minutes and 6 seconds to bring one liter of water to a boil. <br>
</p><p class="MsoNormal">
The
burner shown in this video is a very efficient premix gas burner. <br></p><p class="MsoNormal">But since it operates solely
by means of convection, its performance is not optimal.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
The second test was carried out using the 150 gasifier:<a href="#135d934564ae25b5_135d72f7bad81d52__ftn2" name="135d934564ae25b5_135d72f7bad81d52__ftnref2" title=""><span><span><span><span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Cambria","serif""><br>
</span></span></span></span></a></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="#135d934564ae25b5_135d72f7bad81d52__ftn2" name="135d934564ae25b5_135d72f7bad81d52__ftnref2" title=""><span><span><span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Cambria","serif""></span></span></span></span></a> <a href="http://youtu.be/jK3UTe1Lxqk" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/jK3UTe1Lxqk</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here it took 3 minutes and 42 seconds to bring one liter of water to a boil. <br></p><p class="MsoNormal">Note that the same pan without a lid was used in these two boiling tests.</p><p class="MsoNormal">
Here heat is transferred by both convection and thermal radiation.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">The third test was carried out using an insulated electric
water kettle, as shown here:</p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Boiling/IMG_1042.JPG" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Boiling/IMG_1042.JPG</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
Here it took 3 minutes and 25 seconds to bring
one liter of water to a boil. </p><p class="MsoNormal"> In this way I was able to compare the
two previous results</p><p class="MsoNormal"> with what could be considered to be the fastest way to
boil water in a kitchen setting. <br></p> <br><div><br>
</div><div></div><div><br></div><div> I wonder if you have found any technical design literature for this added radiative mesh? (Materials, wire diameters and spacing, etc?)</div>
</div><div><br>I have no theoretical understanding with regard to what is happening with the wire mesh dome.<br>I tried flat wire mesh, and this did not work at all.<br>The wire mesh has to be in the form of a dome to accommodate the small diffusion tail that you see here:<br>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="http://youtu.be/WXZvvoxCm1g" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/WXZvvoxCm1g</a></span><br><br>I tried wire meshes of various apertures.<br>
If the aperture of the wire mesh is too big, the flames are not contained properly under the dome.<br>If the burning of gases takes place above the dome, the dome does not turn red hot.<br>This week I will experiment with much finer wires and apertures.<br>
<br>Also, if I turn down the primary air to a point where much less gas is produced,<br> combustion no longer takes place at the burner holes but within the apex of the dome.<br>Here a most unusual but stable cloud of burning gases is formed.<br>
<br>The wire mesh dome quite nicely protects the gas being combusted from disturbance by the wind.<br>Previously when the wind would hit the burner without the wire mesh dome, it would move the flames in all directions.<br>
Often it left in its wake a lot of unburned gases.<br><br>I think that thermal radiation travels down to the burner and keeps it hotter than before.<br>I suppose that as hot gases hug the underside of the red hot dome,<br>
gas temperature prior to combustion is higher than before.<br><br><p class="MsoNormal">The wire mesh dome not only emits thermal radiation,</p><p class="MsoNormal">but it also traps fine cinders that are emitted by the burner.<br>
</p><br>It will take many more months of experimenting and testing to understand a bit better what is happening here.<br><br>Thanks.<br>Paul Olivier<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><div><br></div>
<div> To list readers, I strongly recommend the report given below, as well as the videos. There are some impressive Biochar field results as well as stove results. For this reason, I am also forwarding this to the (general) Biochar list.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><div><div><br><br></div><div><br>On Mar 2, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Paul Olivier <<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>
</div><div></div><blockquote><div>This is a TLUD forced air gasifier in operation on rice hulls.<br><br>
Here you see the burner with burner housing:<br>
<span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZDt8DfgSls&feature=channel" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZDt8DfgSls&feature=channel" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZDt8DfgSls&feature=channel</a><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="http://youtu.be/WXZvvoxCm1g" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://youtu.be/WXZvvoxCm1g" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/WXZvvoxCm1g</a><br>
<br>
When a wire mesh dome is placed on top of the burner and burner housing, <br> this roughly doubles the amount of heat being transferred to a pot:<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="http://youtu.be/7fnGem9BQ7Q" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://youtu.be/7fnGem9BQ7Q" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/7fnGem9BQ7Q</a><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="http://youtu.be/yO3jcbQj-GI" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://youtu.be/yO3jcbQj-GI" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/yO3jcbQj-GI</a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="http://youtu.be/2c6A6BVitpE" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://youtu.be/2c6A6BVitpE" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/2c6A6BVitpE</a></span><br>
<br>Here it took 3 minutes and 42 seconds to bring a liter of water to a boil:<br>
<span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="http://youtu.be/jK3UTe1Lxqk" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://youtu.be/jK3UTe1Lxqk" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/jK3UTe1Lxqk</a><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="http://youtu.be/80REBVTwpMo" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://youtu.be/80REBVTwpMo" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/80REBVTwpMo</a></span><br>
<br>For more details on this gasifier, see:<br>
<a href="http://esrla.com/pdf/landfill_06.pdf" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://esrla.com/pdf/landfill_06.pdf" target="_blank">http://esrla.com/pdf/landfill_06.pdf</a> <br><br>Thanks.<br>Paul<br><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
27C Pham Hong Thai Street<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a><br>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Stoves mailing list</span><br><span></span><br><span>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span><br>
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</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>27C Pham Hong Thai Street<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a><br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>27C Pham Hong Thai Street<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a><br>
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