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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=paul.olivier@esrla.com href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul
Olivier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 06, 2012 4:09
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] the 150 gasifier in
operation in Vietnam</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Kevin,<BR><BR>I understand what you mean by an oxidizing
atmosphere.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Note also that while "pure air" is clearly oxidizing,
a mixture of "air + combustibles" is also oxidizing. Additionally, pure CO2,
with or without water vapor, as a product of combustion, with no excess
air, can also be oxidizing, depending on temperature and the metals
involved.</FONT><BR><BR>I do not know what quality of stainless steel is used
in the strainer that I have been using.<BR>But it is definitely stainless
steel, and it lasted three runs.<BR>I would assume that stainless steel is
better than mild steel.<BR>Would you agree?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># I just don't know. It is not at all a simple issue. In
point of fact, most non-iron ingredients in stainless steel are actually more
reactive and "corrodible" or "oxidizable" than the iron content of the SS. SS
relies on the stability of an oxidized film for its durability. If "operatijng
conditions" are such that a stable oxide film forms, then you will get great
life. However, if localized combustion conditions are such that the oxide
film is attacked, or is prevented from forming, then there is probably little
to no benefit from using SS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> <BR>Ordinary grades of stainless steel becomes brittle when
subjected to this kind of heat.<BR>446 stainless steel might have a
chance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Again, it is more than heat... for example, in
addition to the possibility of oxygen attack, there may also be the
possibility of "alkali attack", where the Na and K oxides, that may be fumed
off from the ash, attack the oxide coating on the SS. </FONT><BR><BR>Silicon
carbide cloth is much cheaper than stainless steel,<BR> and it is far
more resistant to heat than stainless steel.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Again, while simple temperature resistance is probably
a very much reduced concern with SiC cloth, it also may be subject to other
conditions that may cause it to fail easier. Given that it is cheap, many
questions can be answered at low cost with a test run.</FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV><BR>But I am not sure at what temperatures it emits the most thermal
radiation.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># This is a really interesting issue or subject. Very
complex also. :-) There are two issues here: 1: The emissivity of teh
material, and 2: its temperature. With a surface of a given emissivity, the
radiant heat transfer will inrease with the difference between 4th
powers of the absolute temperatures of the hot and cold
surfaces. Emissivities can vary greatly, say from .03 (for polished
metals) to about .90 to .95 (for most materials with a dull surface.)
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Note that Dr. Tom Reed is a wizard at high temperature
measurement, among other things. If he could tell us how to do reliable and
accurate high temperature measurements, we should be able to readily determine
the actual emissivity, simply by using a radiation pyrometer, and noting teh
error between "True Temperature" and "Radiation Pyrometer Temperature." SImply
turn "the knob on the pyrometer" to the emissivity position that gives the
right reading, and then you know the actual emissivity.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Kevin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=paul.olivier@esrla.com href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com"
target=_blank>Paul Olivier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 06, 2012 1:00
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] the 150
gasifier in operation in Vietnam</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV>Kevin,<BR><BR>I do not think that normal mild steel wire mesh would
make it through a single gasifier run.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Certainly, "red hot mild steel" in an oxidizing
air atmosphere will scale up and fail quickly. However, you don't have
that.... you have a combustion zone atmosphere. It is very simple and
cheap[ to try. Try it, and let the screen itself tell you that it needs to
be of higher quality.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=im><FONT face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV><BR>I'm afraid that it has to be something "exotic".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Let the system prove to you that it needs to be
exotic. :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=im><FONT face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT><BR>This wire mesh really gets hot.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># "Hot" is one thing, but "oxdizing atmosphere" is
another. If the atmosphere the screen "sees" is "adequately reducing",
then mild steel might be an economically good solution. On the other hand,
as the atmosphere becomes increasingly oxidizing, then the more exotic
materials are required. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=im><FONT face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV><BR>Someone measured the temperature about 4 inches above the
dome.<BR>When the probe reached 500 C, he stopped.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># A material that would fail in air at 500
C might be quite acceptable in a reducing atmosphere at 500
C</FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># The problem is one of Temperature AND Atmosphere.
You could probably reduce costs safely, with a test program that confirmed
the minimum quality screen material that would do an acceptable
job.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><BR>Thanks.<BR>Paul<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Kevin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Why not start with simple mild steel screen, of
various sizes, and test them to see how long they last?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Exotic materials will probably last longer, but at
a very much higher cost. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Once you have cost and "lifetime" information,
then you can make the best decision about what materials to
use.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=paul.olivier@esrla.com href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com"
target=_blank>Paul Olivier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 06, 2012
12:12 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] the 150
gasifier in operation in Vietnam</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>446 stainless can handle temperatures as high as 1,200
C.<BR>Silicon carbide is quite cheap, and it can handle temperatures
as high as 1,650 C.<BR><A href="http://accuratus.com/silicar.html"
target=_blank>http://accuratus.com/silicar.html</A><BR><BR>Thanks.<BR>Paul<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Anand Karve
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com"
target=_blank>adkarve@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>Dear Paul,</DIV>
<DIV>I have not worked with that grade of stainless steel and also
not worked with silicon carbide mesh.</DIV>
<DIV>Yours</DIV>
<DIV>A.D.Karve<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Olivier
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com"
target=_blank>paul.olivier@esrla.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>A.D.,<BR><BR>I am looking for a 446 stainless
steel wire mesh.<BR>Have you ever worked with silicon carbide
mesh?<BR>It is used as an emitter in
thermophotovoltaics.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Anand
Karve <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com"
target=_blank>adkarve@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>Dear Paul,</DIV>
<DIV>even stainless steel is no good. At high temperature, it
corrodes and crumbles into pieces.</DIV>
<DIV>Yours</DIV>
<DIV>A.D.Karve<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Steve Taylor <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk"
target=_blank>steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 5 March 2012 02:56, Paul Olivier
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com"
target=_blank>paul.olivier@esrla.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><BR>I know that a tungsten wire mesh
exists.<BR>But no doubt this would be too
expensive.<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>Tungsten will oxidise to nothing very quickly.
Probably Incoloy would be ideal<BR><FONT
color=#888888><BR>Steve<BR></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
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color=#888888><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>***<BR>Dr. A.D.
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color=#888888><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Paul A. Olivier
PhD<BR>27C Pham Hong Thai
Street<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana telephone:
1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in
Vietnam)<BR>Skype address: Xpolivier<BR><A
href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.esrla.com/</A><BR></FONT><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Paul A. Olivier PhD<BR>27C Pham Hong Thai
Street<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124
(rings Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<BR>Skype address:
Xpolivier<BR><A href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.esrla.com/</A><BR></DIV></DIV>
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<HR>
<P></P><A></A>
<P align=left color="#000000">No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com"
target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus
Database: 2114/4852 - Release Date: 03/05/12</P>
<P></P>
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Paul A. Olivier PhD<BR>27C Pham Hong Thai
Street<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124
(rings Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<BR>Skype address:
Xpolivier<BR><A href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.esrla.com/</A><BR>
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<P></P><A></A>
<P align=left color="#000000">No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked
by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com"
target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database:
2114/4852 - Release Date: 03/05/12</P>
<P></P>
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Paul A. Olivier PhD<BR>27C Pham Hong Thai
Street<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings
Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<BR>Skype address:
Xpolivier<BR><A href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.esrla.com/</A><BR>
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<HR>
<P></P><A></A>
<P align=left color="#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus
Database: 2114/4853 - Release Date: 03/05/12</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>