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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>txs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>rongretlarson@comcast.net<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Marc Pare; Paul Olivier; mredmond3@gatech.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Radiation Analysis for Gasifier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Marc, Matt etal<br>
<br>
Two problems I see with your analysis.<br>
<br>
First is minor - Your equation 1 show a linear variation
with temperature, whereas it should show a 4th power. But you were
using the proper fourth power in your Excel spread sheet - so this was just a
typo.<br>
<br>
More serious is your assumption that the metal portion of the mesh
is 10%. This is appropriate only for a very few mesh per inch and fine
wire. My guess is that Paul's mesh could be more like 30-40% - which will
change your conclusion a great deal. See pages like:<br>
<br>
<span class=object>http://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh/TWPCAT_12/p_014X014S0170W48T</span><br>
<br>
So this is to ask Paul Olivier for a visual check on what he was
using in his particular strainer. A manufacturer and model number would
be helpful, if available<br>
<br>
Conversely, I worry about assuming the mesh was as high as 750
degrees - based on the color in Paul's photo. But I am used (vaguely -
long time ago) to looking at solid materials through a peep hole in ceramic
kilns. The openness of the mesh must affect our visual color/temperature
calibrations. Anyone up on that?<br>
<br>
I'd like to know more about the maximum possible kiln power level
- by knowing the amount of rice husk consumed per unit time (same as
question asked by Crispin, I think). From this we can start to compute
the convective heat transfer coefficient. In other words, what part of
the output energy was not getting into the cookpot? I think we can assume
a larger portion of the radiative energy was captured than of the convective.<br>
<br>
Also the amount of water evaporated should be easy to measure
rather than guesstimate. I also would feel better running longer
and using the weight evaporated for these energy capture-power computations.<br>
<br>
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=zwchr>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>"Marc Pare"
<mpare@gatech.edu><br>
<b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:30:50 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Stoves] Radiation Analysis for Gasifier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>First
a short story, then a presentation of some analysis I've been working on the
last week (with the help of Crispin and Matt Redmond). You can skip the story,
if you like.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>the
story</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>My
friend Isaac from Tech tells of his most traumatic experience training
to be an engineer: "We were giving a presentation on a design of a hybrid
vehicle. The professor asks us why we choose one particular motor over another.
'Oh, it was bigger, so we figured it would be better.' The professor stopped
them there. Stood up, turned to the class, and yelled: "ENGINEERS
QUANTIFY!"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>the
results</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>In
the spirit of Isaac's legendary professor, I sought to provide some clarity to
the speculation of radiative heat transfer and improved cook stoves by doing
some simple analysis.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The
setup was simple: what is the theoretical upper bound on contribution to heat
transfer by the "dome-shaped emitter" described over the last week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>It
turns out that <b>the dome-shaped emitter has negligible impact on the heat
transfer</b>. Further testing supported this conclusion, but I figured it was
worth showing how we were able to show with theory that the dome-shaped thing
was not important.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The
results place the upper bound on power from the emitter at <b>0.301 kW </b>vs.
the power required to boil water at <b>1.65 kW</b>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>This
means that even at 100% efficiency, the emitter will only improve your thermal
performance by about 20%. (not the reported 100% improvement)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I
attached a pdf explaining the theory and a spreadsheet of the calculation. You
can also get them here:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="http://notwandering.com/radiation.php" target="_blank">http://notwandering.com/radiation.php</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>thanks</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Matt
Redmond for a first pass on the spreadsheet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Crispin
for quadruple-checking the spreadsheet and adding improved water boiling
numbers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>feedback
is welcome. there is always the chance that there are mistakes!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><br clear=all>
Marc Paré<br>
B.S. Mechanical Engineering<br>
Georgia Institute of Technology | Université de Technologie de Compiègne<br>
<br>
my cv, etc. | <a href="http://notwandering.com" target="_blank">http://notwandering.com</a><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>On
Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Great!</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Marc you are doing us a great service. Simply by collecting the
little spreadsheets circulated here, one can gain a good education in stove
design.</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The volunteer’s efforts are always rewarded.</span><span
lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Many thanks</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Crispin</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='color:#1F497D'>+++++++</span><span lang=EN-CA
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='color:black'># I appeal to Marc not to hide his light
under a bushel. These discussion also need numbers and methods so the reality
of things becomes widespread.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><br clear=all>
Write-up is coming :)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span
lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>Putting in some effort so that it's a useful
resource for folks in the future.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span
lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>Marc Paré<br>
B.S. Mechanical Engineering<br>
Georgia Institute of Technology | Université de Technologie de Compiègne<br>
<br>
my cv, etc. | <a href="http://notwandering.com" target="_blank">http://notwandering.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear Alexis and Paul</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks so much for the very open discussion and open design of
the burners. Alexis, when we met in Thailand you mentioned that you have switched
to a premixed flame and if you recall we did talk a bit about the top end of
the version of the stove you demonstrated.</span><span lang=EN-CA
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Is it correct that you are now using a premixed flame? I have
been in extensive conversation with Paul O about the burner for some time and
it seems at present to be a blend of premixing with secondary air and as Paul
says, some tertiary air for the final burnout.</span><span lang=EN-CA
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The difference in performance that Paul mentioned and which got
some much discussion going about heat transfer from the hot dome could have at
least three quite different origins and there is a lot of merit in tracking
down the difference. The first might be that the structure under the pot on
Paul’s present configuration is much more closed than the one I saw in Thailand.
That could account for all the difference in the boiling time. A second
possibility is the reduction in excess air either through the burner where
flames are present or between the flames and the final departure of the pot and
stove structure, by which I mean the outer ring. Until the hot gases leave the
pot and vent into the room, the air present in that gas stream is technically
part of the combustor. If there is a lot of cold air entering the region under
the pot, then it is counted as excess air in the heat exchanger.</span><span
lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Paul, thanks for putting the pictures of the development work
you are doing. It is helpful for those who would like to work on stoves with
minimal equipment to see how things work and what has been tried. It saves a
lot of reinventing.</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>With regard to the heat transfer from a radiant dome, Marc has
been doing some calculations which I hope he will post here when he is
confident in the method. That should settle the question as to whether or not a
large increase in performance can be obtained by changing hot, relatively
non-IR radiant gas into IR emitted from a wide gauze surface.</span><span
lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is well worth remembering that because a flame is pale blue
in the visible range, that does not tell us what it is emitting in the IR which
is invisible to human eyes. Looking through a translucent flame is not really a
measure of emissions of heat. If you point an IR gun at a flame it will
register a high temperature, even if it is as inaccurate as an unshielded
thermocouple.</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I agree with the others that the discussion about heat transfer
has been a good exploration of the subject. I appeal to Marc not to hide his
light under a bushel. These discussion also need numbers and methods so the
reality of things becomes widespread.</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Crispin</span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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