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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rstanley@legacyfound.org
href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org">Richard Stanley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 07, 2012 1:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] material processing
for briquettes few tips ontechnique</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Am all ears </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Is that a corn pun? ;-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Kevin & Andrew. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Clearly its not hydrated lime but rather directly powdered rock lime we
are seeing.<FONT face=Arial></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># I don't know the technology involved in corn
treatment, , but "lime burning" goes back a long way:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> CaCO3 + Heat ---> CaO +
CO2 (Lime Burning)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Limestone and heat yield Calcium Oxide and CO2.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># The CaO can be produced as "Lump Lime", or the "Lump
Lime" can be hammer milled or ground to produce "crushed lime", "ground lime",
"powdered lime", etc. This is very different from limestone, ie, Calcium
Carbonate, that is crushed, ground, milled, etc., which is commonly known as
"ground limestone", agricultural limestone, ag-lime, land lime,
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># If the lime is dropped in water, it hydrates to
produce Hydrated Lime:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> CaO + H20 --->
Ca(OH)2 (Hydrated Lime Production.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>This is also known as "Slaked Lime", and "Mason's
Lime."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># When dissolved in water, to make "Lime Water", the
lime is very reactive, at high pH.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Now, there is a problem here... the highly reactive
Ca(OH)2 has a big affinity for CO2. It can easily remove CO2 from the air, to
"air slake", or, if in a slurry, can remove CO2 from solution. A lump of
calcined CaO can "air slake" to produce "powdered limestone."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> CaO + CO2 ---> CaCO3 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># There can be a two step process involved in "air
slaking".... first the CaO can hydrate to Ca(OH)2, and then it can
carbonate to CaCO3:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>How would either variety, Hydrated or not effects the removal of shells
off the corn kernels --as done there in large 50 - 75 liter sized vats of hot
water is my question.
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># I don't know the process, but would guess that
Hydrated Lime would be employed, and that ground limestone would not "do
the job." I would guess also that the reactive, high pH hydrated lime
would become "spent" in the process of de-hulling. The "spent lime" may be
present as part of an organic compound of some sort, or, it may also have been
precipitated out as CaCO3, if CO2 was present.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=AppleOriginalContents>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica">The efficient management of
the partial decomposition of selected agricultural residues makes
or breaks a production activity from an economic standpoint. In lieu of
sophisticated machinery, it often comes down to finding an efficient and
locally managed method to accelerate the breakdown of the plant material,
preserving its fiber content while dissociating it from the matrix material
all left-still -, in a combustible state. </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica">Its particularly, the loosened
flexible ganglia of fibers, recombined in a water slurry of other plant and
granular combustibles, forms the kind of tight, well infilled and
relatively hot briquette that sells well, in the local
market. </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica">If they don't have the fibers
at work they can resort to paper if they have it but paper is never going to
burn like selected natural plant material which they are familiar with and are
best assured to be able to utilise on a sustainable basis. </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica">When it comes to practical
briquetting based on traditional skills, there is more collective wisdom in
this truck than you can imagine. Its through these incredible folks, and about
300 more, that the production trainers for the region will soon
emerge. </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica">
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: medium Verdana">Am very busy learning from both
ends of the candle here ! </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: medium Verdana">Your information could not be
more timely: </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: medium Verdana"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: medium Verdana">Thanks again, Kevin and
Andrew. </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: medium Verdana"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: medium Verdana">Richard Stanley</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: medium Verdana"><A
href="http://www.legacyfound.org">www.legacyfound.org</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica">===========</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV>
<DIV> On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:42 AM, Kevin wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<DIV>Dear Andrew<BR><BR>Very interesting possible explanation for why "spent
agricultural lime" helps with the anaerobic retting process!<BR><BR>While
Ca(OH)2, or "Hydrated lime" can have a pH as high as about 12.5, and is
indeed very caustic, CaCO3 or "Limestone", "agriculture lime, "land lime", has
a pH in the range of about 8, which is not very caustic at all<BR><BR>Is there
perhaps another possibility, that being that a marginal change in alkalinity
favours growth of different bacteria?<BR><BR>More specifically, is it perhaps
the minor change in pH is "shifting the bug balance", rather than making local
chemistry harsher? In other words, are the "retting fungus forms" more
favoured with slightly higher pH, while the fungus forms that consume
cellulose are repressed?<BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>Kevin<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----
Original Message ----- From: <<A
href="mailto:ajheggie@gmail.com">ajheggie@gmail.com</A>><BR>To: "Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Saturday, August 04, 2012 2:04 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Stoves] material processing
for briquettes few tips ontechnique<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:32:14 -0700, Richard Stanley
wrote:<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">If processed correctly, natural fibers will
flex and then tend to interlock once blended with other materials in a
water slurry.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">One does not achieve this by simple chopping
or even direct use of the fiber without some form of softening (thru
partial decompsition, in a hot humid anerobic environment, (under
such as a black plastic bag), or as we are learning from our Mayan
colleagues in Guatemala, use of agricultural lime (which is
traditionally discarded after its use in hot water to soften and de-shell
their corn kernals).<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">As always I find your posts on briquetting
educational.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Alkalis, lime being calcium hydroxide, dissolve
lignin and I expect<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">this is what the bugs do in retting fibres out of
the stem<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">(simplistically wood rotting fungi can be classified
into brown, white<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">and soft rots, the white rots attack lignin and
leave the cellulose,<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">brown eat the cellulose and soft rots invade all the
cells), it's<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">lignin that hold all the stringy fibres together. So
I can see how<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">lime would separate out the fibres.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Your observation that the bugs work better in
anaerobic conditions<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">may be that this is what favours a white rot. Flax
sheaves where laid<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">in a water filled ditch to ret.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">I may have missed something in Rok's post: Rok
mentions 16cms diameter<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">briquettes with a 5 cms hole, I take it it is the
length he is varying<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">between 3-12 cms and favouring a length of between 5
and 7cms?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">AJH<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
type="cite">_______________________________________________<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<P>
<HR>
<P></P>Am all ears Kevin & Andrew. <BR><BR>Clearly its not hydrated lime
but rather directly powdered rock lime we are seeing.<BR><BR>How would either
variety, Hydrated or not effects the removal of shells off the corn kernels
--as done there in large 50 - 75 liter sized vats of hot water is my
question. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The efficient management of the partial
decomposition of selected agricultural residues makes or breaks a
production activity from an economic standpoint. In lieu of sophisticated
machinery, it often comes down to finding an efficient and locally managed
method to accelerate the breakdown of the plant material, preserving its fiber
content while dissociating it from the matrix material all left-still -, in a
combustible state. <BR><BR>Its particularly, the loosened flexible ganglia of
fibers, recombined in a water slurry of other plant and granular combustibles,
forms the kind of tight, well infilled and relatively hot
briquette that sells well, in the local market. <BR><BR>If they don't
have the fibers at work they can resort to paper if they have it but paper is
never going to burn like selected natural plant material which they are
familiar with and are best assured to be able to utilise on a
sustainable basis. <BR><BR>When it comes to practical briquetting based on
traditional skills, there is more collective wisdom in this truck than you can
imagine. Its through these incredible folks, and about 300 more, that the
production trainers for the region will soon emerge. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Am very
busy learning from both ends of the candle here ! <BR>Your information could
not be more timely: <BR><BR>Thanks again, Kevin and Andrew. <BR><BR>Richard
Stanley<BR>www.legacyfound.org <BR>===========<BR><BR> On Aug 7, 2012, at
6:42 AM, Kevin wrote:<BR><BR>Dear Andrew<BR><BR>Very interesting possible
explanation for why "spent agricultural lime" helps with the anaerobic retting
process!<BR><BR>While Ca(OH)2, or "Hydrated lime" can have a pH as high
as about 12.5, and is indeed very caustic, CaCO3 or "Limestone",
"agriculture lime, "land lime", has a pH in the range of about 8, which is not
very caustic at all<BR><BR>Is there perhaps another possibility, that being
that a marginal change in alkalinity favours growth of different
bacteria?<BR><BR>More specifically, is it perhaps the minor change in pH is
"shifting the bug balance", rather than making local chemistry harsher? In
other words, are the "retting fungus forms" more favoured with slightly higher
pH, while the fungus forms that consume cellulose are repressed?<BR><BR>Best
wishes,<BR><BR>Kevin<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- From:
<ajheggie@gmail.com><BR>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012
2:04 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Stoves] material processing for briquettes few tips
ontechnique<BR><BR><BR>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:32:14 -0700, Richard Stanley
wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> If processed correctly, natural fibers will
flex and then tend to interlock once blended with other materials in a water
slurry.<BR>>> One does not achieve this by simple chopping or even
direct use of the fiber without some form of softening (thru partial
decompsition, in a hot humid anerobic environment, (under such as a
black plastic bag), or as we are learning from our Mayan colleagues in
Guatemala, use of agricultural lime (which is traditionally discarded
after its use in hot water to soften and de-shell their corn kernals).<BR>>
<BR>> As always I find your posts on briquetting educational.<BR>>
<BR>> Alkalis, lime being calcium hydroxide, dissolve lignin and I
expect<BR>> this is what the bugs do in retting fibres out of the
stem<BR>> (simplistically wood rotting fungi can be classified into brown,
white<BR>> and soft rots, the white rots attack lignin and leave the
cellulose,<BR>> brown eat the cellulose and soft rots invade all the
cells), it's<BR>> lignin that hold all the stringy fibres together. So I
can see how<BR>> lime would separate out the fibres.<BR>> <BR>> Your
observation that the bugs work better in anaerobic conditions<BR>> may be
that this is what favours a white rot. Flax sheaves where laid<BR>> in a
water filled ditch to ret.<BR>> <BR>> I may have missed something in
Rok's post: Rok mentions 16cms diameter<BR>> briquettes with a 5 cms hole,
I take it it is the length he is varying<BR>> between 3-12 cms and
favouring a length of between 5 and 7cms?<BR>> <BR>> AJH<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>>
Stoves mailing list<BR>> <BR>> to Send a Message to the list, use the
email address<BR>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>> <BR>> to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>>
<BR>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
web site:<BR>>
http://www.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
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site:<BR>http://www.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR><BR>
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