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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Dear Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>It is sorta funny so I have to point it out: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>"... and then use phrases like "...in use (as I understand it) in the UK for a long time before <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>that..." "<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>I was referring to the use of the UK of downdraft gasification plants which supplied coal gas to municipalities. Please read it again.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Here is your information: (from <a href="http://shop.silver.com.tr/?icerik/512/0/The-Profile-of-the-Company-">http://shop.silver.com.tr/?icerik/512/0/The-Profile-of-the-Company-</a> watch, the English is a bit mixed up.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>“</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif";color:black'>Dökümiş Co. Ltd. which was established in 1958 produces Silver branded stoves. It has the manufacturing capacity of 90.000 unit/year solid fuel, 50.000 unit/year LPG stove, 500.000 unit/year pipes and bends. Our factory which is located on 47.650 m2 has 20.500 m2 indoor area.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>‘Silver’ is the marketing company, officially called </span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode","sans-serif";color:black'>Silver Trade Inc. </span><span lang=EN-CA>which was formed in 1982. All their solid fuel stoves are TLUD’s. They burn both coal and wood. They are working overtime I think. They had only a 40,000 TLUD stove capacity in 2010. It has been increased because of Mongolian sales.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>The stoves all have an unusual grate which is circular, and mounted on a central pivot. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><img border=0 width=372 height=409 id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image005.png@01CD9E97.95786C80" alt="Description: cid:image005.png@01CD9E97.95786C80"><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>A handle can be used to shake it in a rotating fashion. In addition, pulling a pin outwards allows the grate to flip over 180 degrees, dumping all accumulated clinkers and stones into a large tray underneath which is housed in a sealed door (the body is very gas tight).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Note the vertical grooves in the ceramic chamber that pipe air up to the top to serve as secondary air. This is not done in any of the small TLUD’s that I have heard about. Perhaps you have seen it. This preheats the air as it passes through the pyrolysation deck. As it comes from professionals with 50+ years of experience it is perhaps something other producers should consider. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>They manufacture 25 types of solid fuel stoves plus LPG and natural gas models. Many of the wood/coal stoves will operate for 24 hours unattended when loaded with about 15 kg of coal. Other models are suited to a 12 hour burn which is the need in some of their region (Turkey).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>This is a pot on the stove with the flames directly underneath:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><img border=0 width=453 height=301 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image002.jpg@01CD9EA7.6710E560" alt="Description: cid:image002.jpg@01CD9EA7.6710E560"><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>And here is a front quarter view of their smallest unit, about 7 kW. I have tested this one. It was more than 99% cleaner than the baseline stove+burn cycle, burning the same unprocessed lignite (Nalaikh Mine coal).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><img border=0 width=454 height=674 id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image004.jpg@01CD9EA7.6710E560" alt="Description: cid:image004.jpg@01CD9EA7.6710E560"><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>There is another larger model visible in the right corner.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>So with regard to claims, I feel everyone needs to prove they are correct when making sweeping statements about names and origins. There is no ‘default’ correct position, especially in the face of alternate claims from various quarters.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>For the benefit of others I will include some photos here so it is clear what we are talking about.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>John’s original stove is similar to all the current crop of TLUD’s save that it had more holes drilled into the fuel holder at various heights. The lowest portion of the stove (the cylinder) has an open bottom with the fuel sitting on a fine mesh. This aspect is unlike the TLUD’s which strictly control air access to the fuel from the bottom. The addition of a secondary preheater around the outside of the upper portion of the fuel hopper improved the combustion quite a bit. If he had a ceramic liner, he could use the internal groove method instead but that would mean a change in the air and draft control. I believe he gets a 6 hour burn with the standard sized ones. I think Tom Reed would call it a packed bed gasifier, right? John says that is its correct description. It depends on the fuel packing to restrict the upward air flow through the fuel, not external bodywork and a regulated air hole like the Silver (and others).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><img border=0 width=454 height=770 id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image010.png@01CD9E9A.85955140" alt="Description: cid:image010.png@01CD9E9A.85955140"><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>SeTAR Centre test 2008<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>In this later model the row of horizontal holes is a power regulator, controlling air entry into the secondary air heater. By bleeding in extra air it reduced the portion of the draft that is applied to the primary (gas evolving) section.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f">
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</v:shape><![endif]--><![if !vml]><span style='mso-ignore:vglayout;position:absolute;z-index:251657726;margin-left:3px;margin-top:108px;width:189px;height:439px'><img width=189 height=439 src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD9EE5.B91B83E0" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_4"></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>The essential differences between the Davies stove and the Silver are: secondary air heated outside v.s. inside; packed bed small coal pieces (about 12mm) v.s. unsized coal (though I recommend <40mm); constricting cone bringing gases and flames together above the fuel (adapted from the Vesto coal stove that slightly preceded it, thanks to your visits to both of us):<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> Last version of the stumpy Vesto coal stove, 2003<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> The outlet of the ‘concentrating disk’ as you call it is in the centre<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> except that it is a removable cone. John drilled holes in it and has <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> the secondary air blowing down onto the burning coal top which <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:.5in'><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'> is a good idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>Next difference: regulation by breaking the draft in the chimney with a controller v.s. controlling the primary air entry into the fuel with a rotating star-disk.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'>The rest is similar. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA>Here is a traditional TLUD in South Africa burning coal:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=344 height=402 id="Picture_x0020_6" src="cid:image012.png@01CD9E9B.5B265250" alt="Description: cid:image012.png@01CD9E9B.5B265250"><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>The upper section is only placed there after ignition to provide draft. The holes are made with a pick axe.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>This is the description given to a national project in 2004:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>“</span><span lang=EN>Bassa Njengo Magogo Project - The local name for the so-called ’Scotch’ Method of lighting a coal fire by inverting the contents, so that the volatiles are burned off first, dramatically reduces the time during which a fire produces smoke and creates a slower-burning fire in a matter of minutes, and in so doing reduces energy consumption by up to 30% or more (depending on the user).”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><a href="http://www.slideshare.net/cenafrica/energy-efficiency-strategy">http://www.slideshare.net/cenafrica/energy-efficiency-strategy</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Prof Annegarn (Univ of Johannesburg) remembers, “</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The "Scotch" method of top down fire lighting was already current in South Africa in the late seventies as a way of reducing smoke. Unsuccessfully marketed by the then air pollution agency.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>(Quoting from a document) “</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Rediscovered in the late nineties by the Nono Institute, a faith based group doing poverty relieve in eastern highveld (town of Leandre) where they attribute the "discovery" to Granny Mashinini (sp?), who is used as the poster child/granny for marketing purposes.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Hence the name (Gogo means Granny).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Further, he says, “</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>There was a smokeless stove developed and marketed - A modified Dover stove, with a baffle plate that forced the air downward through the stove and then up again behind the baffle.”</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-CA>I am trying to nail down the year it was marketed. Dover is a well-known cast iron stove making company.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Some of the above is repeats from earlier conversations. The TLUD for fires in cylindrical containers was ‘common knowledge’ in South Africa more than 30 years ago and having the tag ‘scotch method’ probably indicates it dates back into the 19<sup>th</sup> century at least. I am sure more evidence will emerge if we look for it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>How far back will we look for TLUD charcoal making technologies?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>“…type of charcoal making system used for centuries in the western part of Maharashtra State, India used what we now call TLUD (Top Lit UpDraft) technology.” How about that?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><<a href="http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=charcoal%20making%20centuries%20western%20part%20maharashtra%20state%2C%20india&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garyjones.org%2Fmt%2Farchives%2F001502.html&ei=cn1nUK_SLcaHhQegxYG4BA&usg=AFQjCNEI0LxVVUA6YQxgfX30Iu3wbZvaWA">http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=charcoal%20making%20centuries%20western%20part%20maharashtra%20state%2C%20india&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garyjones.org%2Fmt%2Farchives%2F001502.html&ei=cn1nUK_SLcaHhQegxYG4BA&usg=AFQjCNEI0LxVVUA6YQxgfX30Iu3wbZvaWA</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Crispin,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>No. It is not agreed. YOU need to provide info that discusses the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>issue, not just telling us to go contact somebody and then use phrases like "...in use (as I understand it) in the UK for a long time before <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>that..." To say "(as I understand it)" is not very convincing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>I would be happy to accept that COAL units the might have been <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>substantially larger (I do not know) could have been lit at the top. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Just present evidence. We are not here to spend our time to prove you <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>are wrong. You need to prove that you are correct. You can contact <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>the Turkey folks and request sufficiently technical drawings and descriptions. We await the results of your investigations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA> But as far as I KNOW, John Davies in South Africa was the first to utilize the Reed-style IDD (Inverted DownDraft that became TLUD in<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>2004-05) gasification with COAL.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-CA>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>