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Hallo,<br>
<br>
Paul asked me these questions and I answered him the following on
his private side.<br>
It is not my intention to do bizz on the list!<br>
<br>
Rolf<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hallo Paul,<br>
<br>
the manufacturer is very strict about prices:<br>
<br>
There is only one price for all and one retail % for all dealers.<br>
<br>
The pm 22 costs € 9.000,- ex worx, the PM 44 € 20.000,- e.w. and
the PM 75 € 46.000,-<br>
<br>
Please don´ t get me wrong, I didn´t intend to make sales on the
forum´ s back.<br>
<br>
I came to Ecoworxx because I saw what they build and that it suits
perfectly my needs.<br>
<br>
The partnership whith them came later. It is for Spain only. <br>
<br>
But I believe that many on the list shall find these compact
machines extremely versatile and usefull.<br>
<br>
As for the technical questions, Paul:<br>
<br>
There are many and bigger pelleting chains on the market. Most use
hammer mills to grind the<br>
biomass down, which is utterly wasteful, here you can separate the
grinding from pelletizing.<br>
But then you need more hoppers,conveyors and space.<br>
<br>
These machines were designed for people who look for an integrated
device which not only saves space<br>
(1 m² for the biggest unit, less for the smaller) but also energy.<br>
<br>
They use individual freq.drives for every motor, thus you can adjust
the speed of each motor (rasping drum, mixer, feeder screw, pellet
press )individually so as to adjust it to the different input mats
by means of a turn on the poti.<br>
It is this concept which makes the PM range so versatile.<br>
<br>
Of course you are free to mix different feedstock into the hopper,
e.g. add some sawdust to straw (chaff) and it will vastly improve
the pellet quality.<br>
<br>
The inbuilt water pump can handle lime water to dose some lime to
high chlorine mats which makes the pellets less prone to ash
melting...<br>
<br>
Carpenters, woodworkers, smallholders, you name it- everyone who has
ligno-cellulosic waste material of different shapes just drops them
into the hopper and watches the pellets come out below. It is that
easy!<br>
<br>
Corn cobs are just fine,want to mix it with waste paper/cardboard?
O.k. no problem.<br>
<br>
Garden waste? Shrubs? Bad wood chips with too many fines and
escapes? Yes please!<br>
<br>
I was very impressed by the 20 mm pellets made out of sander dust,
hard like a rock !<br>
<br>
What works also great is the fibrous residus of anaerobic
fermenters. In the 25mm shape they look just like dog "pellets" but
they are quite solid.<br>
The max humidity is between 20 and 25 %, depending on the material.<br>
<br>
More questions welcome<br>
<br>
Rolf<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 30.09.2012 15:55, schrieb Paul Anderson: Rolf,<br>
<br>
Yes, we would like to know the prices. This Listserv is not for
commercial purposes, but you can certainly inform us of the prices
here because so many people want to know. And not all want the USA
prices. Basic price where manufactured. And I want to know about
getting units in eastern Africa (specifically Uganda).<br>
<br>
Question: Wouldn't it make more sense to have the
chopping/shreading/grinding to be done separately from the machine
that does the pelletizing? That would allow the user to make
appropriate mixtures for the pellets.<br>
<br>
So I ask: Can you make and sell the pelletizer unit separately?
Prices please.<br>
<br>
I like the ability to have different diameters of pellets!!! <br>
<br>
Finally, where can we see independent reviewer comments about your
machines? And comparative info with other pelletizers?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 01.10.2012 08:52, schrieb Tom Miles Easystreet:
<blockquote
cite="mid:2FEB3798-4CCA-4B2B-B298-995BEDF04E1B@trmiles.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>Price?<br>
<br>
T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.<span></span>
<div><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">tmiles@trmiles.com</a></span></div>
<div><span>Sent from mobile. </span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 30, 2012, at 11:40 PM, "Energies Naturals C.B." <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:energiesnaturals@gmx.de">energiesnaturals@gmx.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> <br>
Hallo Christa,<br>
<br>
thanks for your interesting comments.<br>
<br>
The PM 3.0 was an early prototype, manufactured in + 300 units
most of which are still in use.<br>
It gad a vertical axis design and only one motor which drives
both the rasping shaft and plate and the koller/die below.<br>
<br>
The problem was that it needed often "help" to draw in some
kind of voluminous feedstock.<br>
<br>
The new machines are very different and have solved many
problems learnt from the previous.<br>
<br>
Also, there are three versions, all of them more productive
than the first.<br>
<br>
The principle and the high quality is still the same.<br>
<br>
Rolf<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 01.10.2012 00:57, schrieb CHRISTA ROTH:
<blockquote
cite="mid:9CB876E3-1182-49A5-9C02-82DDDCD55D16@foodandfuel.info"
type="cite"> Paul, you should have just asked me for info.
The Pelletmaker 3.0 from Ecoworxx is the one that I have,
it was the only one available from Ecoworxx in 2010. It is
featured in the <span>GIZ-HERA manual microgasification </span><span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/giz2011-en-micro-gasification.pdf">http://www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/giz2011-en-micro-gasification.pdf</a>, </span>see
photos and link to their website on page 90. that unit is
now doing work in Malawi, though not for fuel
processing. but for waste management. In 2010 I paid less
than 5,000 Euro for the machine, including a 6 mm and an
extra 20-mm die (which is 60 mm thick!). I don't know
current pricing.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>there is another unit in Senegal making
Typha-grass-pellets. both machines were airfreighted to
Africa, increasing the cost, but speeding up the process
(220kg). The challenge to get it to Malawi was that the
pallet where the machine is mounted for transport could
not go upright as they only have small cargo planes flying
into the country, so they had to make a special double
pallet and lay the machine flat on the side for the
transport. it still worked. and Ecoworxx handled it all.
<div>For a trial machine to prove a concept it is actually
ideal to have the shredder and the pelletiser in one
machine. it is probably not so appropriate to go on a
commercial scale, there it makes sense to have the two
steps separated, depending on your setting. Ecoworxx has
since developed larger capacity products. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>but if you are not sure that you will actually
succeed and have a market case for pellets in a certain
area, that small machine, that was developed for the
German home-owner for private use is the best you can
get. Added advantage is that you only need 3 KvA, but
tri-phase power. But it can do maximum 50 kg per hour,
depending on the material. </div>
<div><br>
<div>and because it is a flat-die machine, it is easy to
exchange the dies to work with different diameters. I
have 6, 14 and 20 mm dies, depending on material and
what you want to use it for. </div>
<div>the dies are good quality, but also wear out with
time. The deterioration rate depends again on the
material that you put through, but the dies last far
longer than the chinese versions that you can get
relatively cheaply on the market. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yet if you want to go to scale, there are ring-die
machines for larger volumes made in Africa, see again
the manual, next page with photo and reference to
website. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>hope that answers most of the questions. </div>
<div>Christa</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>Am 30.09.2012 um 15:55 schrieb Paul Anderson
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Rolf,<br>
<br>
Yes, we would like to know the prices. This
Listserv is not for commercial purposes, but
you can certainly inform us of the prices here
because so many people want to know. And not
all want the USA prices. Basic price where
manufactured. And I want to know about
getting units in eastern Africa (specifically
Uganda).<br>
<br>
Question: Wouldn't it make more sense to
have the chopping/shreading/grinding to be
done separately from the machine that does the
pelletizing? That would allow the user to
make appropriate mixtures for the pellets.<br>
<br>
So I ask: Can you make and sell the
pelletizer unit separately? Prices please.<br>
<br>
I like the ability to have different diameters
of pellets!!! <br>
<br>
Finally, where can we see independent reviewer
comments about your machines? And
comparative info with other pelletizers?<br>
<br>
As we (generic we because there are several
efforts) advance with TLUD stoves in eastern
Africa, there could be considerable market for
appropriately priced and reliable pelletizing
equipment. Small units are fine. Labor
costs are so low, so it is vastly different
from the USA and Europe situations. Do you
have any representation in Africa?<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 9/30/2012 4:35 AM, Energies Naturals C.B.
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:50681269.9010405@gmx.de"
type="cite"> Hallo Paul, Ron and others,<br>
<br>
uniformizing low density fuels and uneven size
fuels has always been a problem.<br>
I found a good solution in the Ecoworxx all-in
one pelletizer.<br>
This is a unique device which has a big hopper
on top and a rasping drum underneath it.<br>
It will reduce virtually any feedstock less
than 12 cm diam to particles between 1 and 6
mm.<br>
These fall into a mixing chamber below where
the moisture content is measured and -if too
dry- water is added by an automatic pump. <br>
A second moisture sensor at the entrance to
the dosifying screw regulates the addition of
water.<br>
The ground biomass is fed into the flat die
press underneath and leaves it as prime grade
pellets.<br>
You can change the die in 10 minutes and have
the choice to produce 6 -8 -12- 16 -20 -and 25
mm pellets on the same machine!<br>
It doesn´t come from China, though because
despite the price advantage, all the units I
saw never met the quality standard for trouble
free use. And you cannot move away from them
because they have to be fed continuously.<br>
Our machine is entirely designed and
manufactured in Germany, meets the CE
requirements and really works!<br>
<br>
If you are interested, come to the
Expobioenergia fair in Valladolid/Spain on
23-25.Oct. this year where we shall expose two
working units.<br>
<br>
We just pelletized whole canes of Arundo Donax
in one go into wonderfull hard 6 mm fuel
pellets!<br>
<br>
Many more samples have been tested
successfully. We would be happy to test yours!<br>
<br>
No time to visit the fair?<br>
Check <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ecoworxx.de/">www.ecoworxx.de</a>
and if you call or write in my name they will
know your problem !<br>
<br>
Rolf Uhle<br>
<br>
Energies Naturals C.B.<br>
<br>
(sober again, Ron?)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 30.09.2012 05:39, schrieb Paul Olivier:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOreFvZehBpobugeLuF2PNccv1-rg9uJe5nkz40hQSA-j-aRmA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"> Ron,<br>
<br>
You bring up a very good point here. If the
biomass is uniform, granular and dry, it
becomes very easy to process in a TLUD. That
is why it is so appealing to work with
biomass that is already uniform, granular
and dry, such as rice hulls and coffee
husks. <br>
<br>
But if we have biomass that is not uniform,
granular and dry (such as straw, pine
needles or sawdust), then we might think
about drying and pelletizing it. In this way
we have a top-quality gasifier fuel. This
allows us to take full advantage of both the
biochar and gas. In the case of rice hulls
and coffee husks, the gas has a much greater
commercial value than the biochar. In making
biochar it is such a pity to waste the gas.<br>
<br>
Also when we pelletize biomass, the bulk
density can reach as high as 600 kgs/m3.
This means that if we use a gasifier for
purposes of household cooking, the height of
the reactor has to be only a fraction of the
height of a reactor utilizing undensified
biomass such as rice hulls (of a bulk
density of less than 100 kgs/m3). If we do
not change the height of the reactor, then
cooking times per batch can last three or
four hours. When we have thousands of
households and small business using
gasifiers, then we do not have to think
about making biochar as an independent
activity.<br>
<br>
I really like small pellets of a diameter of
about 6 mm. Of course there is the cost of
buying a pellet machine. But they are quite
cheap out of China. And there is the cost of
electricity or fuel to make the pellets. But
this cost is easily offset by the value of
the syngas produced. Even in a poor country
such as Vietnam, it is easy to buy pellets
in local markets.<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<div>On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Ronald
Hongsermeier <span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rwhongser@web.de">rwhongser@web.de</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>
<div> Dear Alex, <br>
<br>
I haven't carefully read the whole
thread but haven't seen granularity of
fuel addressed. Isn't that what makes
a lot of difference in the flame/gas
quality ( along with the moisture
content, of course ) and determines
the necessity of either using or not
using forced air? Regarding Dr.
Karve's drums I'm wondering how
careful everyone is in emphasizing
fuel moisture and
particularity/uniformity issues in
using these tools.<br>
<br>
I think my first sentence above
applies to both DD (Imberts or others)
and TLUD's. <br>
<br>
regards,<br>
Ronald von der Oktoberfestnähe<br>
<br>
(mein heutiger Name wird nur dann
getragen bei einer
Bierleichensichtungsrate von > 1 /
Tag ;-) )<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 29.09.2012 20:55, Alex English
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Tom,<br>
I guess it may depend on what you
consider a clean burn. My
experiments focused the gases
through a smaller out let pipe and
then added the secondary air. So
for a two foot diameter drum the
pipe was three inches in
diameter. Air was introduced
near the top having only half that
distance to penetrate, and
combustion occurred in a six inch
diameter chimney , six feet tall
above.</p>
<p>Combustion was measurably good to
very good nineteen times out of
twenty.</p>
<p>So, what indeed is the limit?<br>
Alex</p>
<div>On 2012-09-29 11:47 AM, "Tom
Miles" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p><span>AD, Paul, Kobus and
others. Many thanks for
the suggestions. </span></p>
<div><span> </span><br>
</div>
<p><span>What is the largest
practical size (kg
fuel/hr, kW) for a
single TLUD with a clean
stack for heat recovery?
There must be a limit to
the air penetration to
get a clean gas burn
form a natural draft
stack or even a fan
driven TLUD. </span></p>
<div><span> </span><br>
</div>
<p><span>Tom </span></p>
<div><span> </span><br>
</div>
<p><b>From:</b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Anand
Karve<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday,
September 28, 2012 11:22
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Stoves] Fabricated Burn
Barrel TLUDS</span></p>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>
<p>Dear Tom,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>we regularly supply
charring kilns made out
of used 55 gallon drums.
The kilns are based on
the TLUD principle. The
cost of a kiln plus an
extra barrel for storing
the char, is about
US$100. We have sold
more than 100 such
kilns in India and have
also trained a number of
persons from India
and Africa. These kilns
are so easy to
manufacture, that we ask
the trainees to
photograph and take
measurements of our kiln
so that they can copy
the design. In many
instances, people buy a
kiln from us, because
they feel that their
local fabricator would
be better able to copy
the design from an
actual object than from
a blue print or a
photograph.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>The advantage of using
55 gallon drums is that
used drums are available
at a relatively low
cost, and the kilns are
portable. Instead of
transporting the
biomass, one transports
the kiln to the location
where the biomass is
available, and brings
back only the charred
material, which weighs
only a third as much as
the biomass. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Yours</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>A.D.Karve</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at
11:42 PM, Tom Miles <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p>Am often asked if
there is a burn
barrel sized TLUD
that is commercially
fabricated. We’ve
seen some great DIY
with Doug’s Jolly
Roger and others. Is
anyone fabricating a
55 gal drum sized
TLUD that can be
used for regular
biochar production?
If so, what is the
cost and
availability?</p>
<div> <br>
</div>
<p>Thanks</p>
<div><span> </span><br>
</div>
<p><span>Tom Miles </span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p> <br>
<br>
<br>
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***<br>
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Trustee & Founder
President, Appropriate
Rural Technology Institute
(ARTI)<br>
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27C Pham Hong Thai Street<br>
Dalat<br>
Vietnam<br>
<br>
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use
the web page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>Stoves mailing list</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span><br>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page</span><br>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information
see our web site:</span><br>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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