Tom,<div><br></div><div>Testing can move stakeholders forward to learn about how stoves work and then to help projects to evolve stoves that cook better, use less fuel, make less smoke, etc. Remember that the Water Boiling Test is essentially just seeing how much fuel is used to boil and then simmer water while measuring the emissions made. Not complicated.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The next test has cooks using their pots, their fuel, their food, etc.(the Controlled Cooking Test) comparing the traditional and prototype new stove to see which stove cooks better while making the same meal. Again emissions made are counted and again it's not complicated.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The point to me is to test the stoves to 'get what you inspect, not what you expect'. Testing is how we improve stoves. The IWA is inclusive so many Water Boiling Tests can be used as preferred by the tester. No problems.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Dean</div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Tom Miles <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dean,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">My questions below include might where is the data; how good is the data; how have we tested the validity of the data; what are the flaws in our existing methods; how can we improve the methods we use; and what is the appropriate use of the methods we have? These questions apply to the physical and social aspects of stove performance. I appreciate the efforts that have gone into developing the stoves and the information about them that we have but that shouldn’t stop the process of improving on what we can know and using the best information to inform our decisions about where we are going. I haven’t seen recent comparative and critical testing of what we have. The next step is to drill down into the inventory to see what is useful and what is not. If it the critical component is there then I didn’t catch it the first time around, but then I usually read for speed and not comprehension. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Tom <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="13b2fe5cf2ab7b01__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></a></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Stoves [mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dean Still<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 23, 2012 12:32 PM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:ethos@vrac.iastate.edu" target="_blank">ethos@vrac.iastate.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the New Data on Stove Performance in the Field?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Tom,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Personally, I have no doubts about the need for testing. As Kirk Smith says "You get what you inspect, not what you expect". I want decisions to be data driven so the stoves are as helpful as possible. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Remember that the IWA process is inclusive of all kinds of Water Boiling Tests.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The various water boiling tests are very useful to inform how the prototype stove could theoretically be improved. But, the actual stove itself is evolved by groups of cooks and all stakeholders who holistically create most viable stoves using the applicable lab and field tests. Cooks who know how the stove has to function to make great food are a big part of the process of evolving a successful cooking stove.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I've found this inclusive process to work very well. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
Best,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Dean<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Tom Miles <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dean,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It was after reviewing this inventory and the recent EPA publication that I began to question whether we have resolved the testing issues we discussed about three years go. We need to challenge this data set. Do the test mean anything? When you break down those tests into the categories displayed in the report we have a very small number of tests for a particular stove and fuel. We should be at the point where we have large numbers of tests for each condition to arrive at performance numbers rather than having to rely on averages of averages of data generated by using outdated versions of the testing protocols. If there are still flaws in the testing protocol does the whole stack of cards fall down? What is the statistical probability of changing the outcome if we find that we have to change one element the protocol (e.g. assumption about charcoal) to make it more accurate? What is the impact on our understanding of stove performance and what stoves we need to improve, or abandon?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">These questions gain more importance as they influence decisions about funding stoves programs. Did the stove performance survey that Aprovecho started in about 2003 lead the Shell Foundation to make good decisions about their programs in China and India? Or, did they have to go through their own learning curve about what worked and what didn’t from a technical point of view? What does the Berkeley inventory tell us about what will work best in South Asia or Africa? We should discuss these issues in detail at ETHOS. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Another important question: do failures in stove programs have anything to do with stove technology or are they due to problems with the implementing organizations? IN my business of developing and implementing new technologies it is often not the technology that fails but the company that is trying to implement it. Are there things we can do to strengthen our stove organizations? To help them make uncomfortable decisions about stove technologies they may be vested in in order to accomplish their goal of fuel savings and health?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">This is going to take a lot of beers. . .</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Tom </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="13b2fe5cf2ab7b01_13b2e870525f221a__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Stoves [mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dean Still<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 23, 2012 9:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:ethos@vrac.iastate.edu" target="_blank">ethos@vrac.iastate.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the New Data on Stove Performance in the Field?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Tom,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Great suggestions for ETHOS!<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> A Stove Performance Inventory was released this week with both lab and field data funded by the Global Alliance.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"This Stove Performance Inventory, developed by the Berkeley Air Monitoring Group in partnership with the Alliance and with funding from Environment Canada, contains data from over 600 sets of cookstove performance tests. A <a href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/resources_files/stove-performance-inventory-pdf.pdf" target="_blank">detailed report</a> is available in the Resources section of the Alliance’s website."<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Dean<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Tom Miles <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Mark,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">You have listed a number of standards and protocol topics. Now that GACC exists have we made any gains on the science side? Where is the data? We should be generating good field data by now. I don’t want to just hear reports about what people have decided in political committees that nobody seems to be able to attend or vote in. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I would like to see a critical review of the testing protocols and methods with regard to the key metrics and emissions. For example, the protocols to date have made assumptions about heating values of fuels and residues ash and charcoal that I have always felt were just placeholders until someone with larger research budgets could validate them. Determining the amount of energy left in the ash or charcoal is a good example. I often get asked what value to use for the remaining ash/charcoal. I haven’t seen a test where the remaining charcoal/ash has been directly tested for ash content and heating value. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Testing the benchmarks. Do the benchmarks that were derived several years ago make sense now that we have improved tools for measuring stove performance or do we get the same numbers because we’re using the same tools? Do the benchmarks tell us anything about stove performance in the field? Do stoves preform in the field in the same relative way they are shown to perform in the lab or are some stoves much better than others (or much worse) when they are used in the field? Are the stoves designed to the test (e.g. WBT) or to the use in the field? Do some stoves perform best when they are tested in the lab and fail in the field? Or, are we even testing for this?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Field applications. Are our tools and metrics of any use for improving stove performance in actual use? If so then how are projects in developing countries using these tools to improve their fuel use and health? How do local, nation, or regional stove projects use these tools to improve their stoves, or do they just ignore them?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">QA/QC. When a program buys container loads of stoves how do we know that they perform within the expectations created by the test results? Do any of the manufactured stove suppliers test the quality and performance of their stoves on a regular basis? Is there any monitoring?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">How has testing been used for different fuels? I was inspired this week by a photo from Mexican which a construction worker was using an LPG burner in an eCocina stove (Stove Team International) because it substantially reduced his LG use. Can we compare fuel consumption for different fuels? How good are our fuel consumption metrics? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Health. We still do not have proven direct correlation between stove emissions and heath. Most of the data seems to be recycled. Are there new health studies? Has GACC and the many supporting organizations funded any of the fundamental health studies that every year Jay Smith tells us are lacking? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">These are some of the questions that I would like to see addressed at ETHOS. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Looking forward to another productive ETHOS. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Tom </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.trmiles.com" target="_blank">www.trmiles.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.stove.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">www.stove.bioenergylists.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a name="13b2fe5cf2ab7b01_13b2e870525f221a_13b2e20b3bd199ce__MailE"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu" target="_blank">ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu" target="_blank">ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bryden, Kenneth [M E]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 22, 2012 2:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; ETHOS - Listserve<br><b>Subject:</b> [Ethos] ETHOS 2013</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All, <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">It's that time of year again! We're starting to get the activities together together for the ETHOS conference. The conference will be January 25 - 27, 2013 in Seattle. Proposed discussion topics include<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">- Update on the Global Alliance and their activities<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">- Standardizing Reporting on IWA Indicators<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">- Stove Performance Inventory, Sharing Public Data, and Establishing Common Data Formats<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">- Update on ISO Process<u></u><u></u></p></div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- Updates on Protocol Developments (including possibly charcoal, plancha, batch-fed, durability, finalizing WBT from public comment period)<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Let us know what else you would like to talk about. A lot is happening and I'm sure it will be as exciting as ever. I'd appreciate having your ideas on topics and panels by November 15.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Abstracts for papers and talks are due January 1.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
For more details, to register, and to submit your abstract the conference web site is <a href="http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php" target="_blank">http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php</a>.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Please send your ideas directly to Dean and I.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
Best regards<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Mark<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br>
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