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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>See comments interspersed below...</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> ; <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin Chisholm</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where
is the New Data on Stove</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin and
list:<BR><BR> I think you are very close to getting what I
am saying. I will next reply to Crispin - and so leave some of a full
response below to my responses there.<BR><BR> Some of this also
relates to comments made today by Jim Jetter in response to Crispin -
which message I hope all will look at carefully..<BR><BR> A few
responses below. Not needing a response to #1.<BR><BR>
<HR id=zwchr>
<B>From: </B>"Kevin" <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR><B>To:
</B>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR><B>Sent: </B>Wednesday, November
28, 2012 10:27:40 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the
New Data on Stove<BR><BR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I missed what you are trying to accomplish, but I offer
the following:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1: C+O2 ---> CO2 tell us that 1 gram of C is
equivalent to 44/12 = 3.66 gms CO2. Your 3.7 factor below is
correct.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2: Any stove burning any biomass sourced fuel is
inherently "Carbon Neutral", at the very least, in that no new C is added to
the Biosphere.<BR> <B>[RWL2: As
Crispin noted, one can inappropriately use some biomass. So, I would not
use the word "any". This is a main point of dialog in current EPA
deliberations about bioenergy. I am comfortable with cutting forests in
the US if overall US biomass growth exceeds cutting. But mostly I think
we will see dedicated areas of species like switch grass and miscanthus - so
the CO2 payback time can be measured in months, not decades. To repeat,
not every biomass fuel should be eligible for carbon
credits.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG>## KC2: OK... there are two issues here... the
appropriateness of a biomass fuel, and the "Carbon Neutrality" of biomass
fuel. Some biomass fuels may indeed be inappropriate, but ALL biomass
fuels are at least "Carbon Neutral", (if burned at 100% combustion efficiency)
and are "Carbon Negative", if a portion of the biomass fuel leaves the stove
unburned as char. Note also that "Combustion Efficiency" is different
from "Stove Efficiency", which is different from "Stove cooking Function
Efficiency". However, any biomass fuel that displaces the need to burn fossil
fuels is indeed at least "Carbon Neutral", and as such, should qualify for a
Carbon Credit. There may be other excellent reasons for not wishing to burn
biomass as fuel (higher value as food, better use as a soil organic matter
addition, reduce pressures on deforestation in areas in danger iof
deforestation, etc.), but "Carbon Neutrality" or "Carbon Negativity" are not
two of them. </STRONG>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3: The case where 100% of the C in the fuel
(biomass or char) is burned to CO2 would result in a "Carbon Neutral" stove.
This condition has the potential for giving a stove with maximum efficiency,
in the "Class 1" context... least fuel requirement to "get the job done."
There is no carbon sequestration. There is no carbon negativity.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><B> [RWL3a: OK. But not all CO2
produced in the "Class 1" stove should be eligible for carbon credits.
Stoves receiving a credit up front should also have to make some guarantees on
char lifetime. etc. ]</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><BR><STRONG>## KC3a: I would suggest that "Carbon Credit Payments" should
fundamentally be based on the degree to which they avoid the burning of fossil
fuels, which are "Carbon Positive". As such, I would thus agree with you
that all CO2 from biomass burning stoves should not qualify for "Carbon
Credits." For example, a stove with a low combustion efficiency, (say because
of efficiency loss due to excess air) or low "Stove Efficiency" (because
of heat loss to surroundings that don't need the heat) should not be rewarded
for wasting biomass fuel, when appropriately improved stoves are available
that "get the desired job done" with less biomass fuel consumption. I would
also suggest that "char lifetime in soil" is not an issue... given that there
is evidence of 3,000 year old char in the Amazonian Terra Preta Deposits, and
even if these lifetime estimates are out by a factor of 10, this is still a
300 year lifetime.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3: A stove that burns part of the C in a biomass sourced
fuel is inherently "Carbon Negative" in that a portion of the C in the fuel is
removed from the biosphere as char, either unintentionally (as "carbon loss"
to the ash) or intentionally (when operated to produce
biochar.)<BR> <B>[RWL3b: OK - but I prefer to
use the word "pyrolyzes" in place of "burns". It should be very rare
that any recoverable char is thought of as a "loss". Any char is more
valuable placed in soil than anywhere else (although maybe should first
provide other non-soil benefits). </B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG>##KC 3b: "Pyrolysis" is the process that produces the char,
or the combustible gases containing carbon fuels, from biomass. "Burning" is
the process that releases heat from carbon fuels. There are two totally
different functions or goals here. Note that char with high ash content can be
very detrimental when applied to some soil. For example, a person wishing to
grow Potatoes should not add high ash biochar to a "good" potato soil, in that
the increase in pH will cause "Potato Scab." However, the same Farmer could
advantageously add "high ash char" to a soil that is presently undesaribly
acid for potatoes.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>(For the sake of simplicity in the example below, I assume
that wood is 50% Carbon, and that biochar recovery is 20% of
weight of the dry wood feed to a TLUD stove</FONT> <FONT face=Arial>
You can pick whatever numbers you feel are appropriate and re-do the
calculations.)<BR> <B>[RWL3c: The point of my note was
that these numbers (and more below) should be a featured output of
char-producing stove testing. No need to assume anything (and I
recognize you are only giving an example.]</B><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>##
KC3c: Certainly. Testing could easily determine "generally agreed on" numbers
for Carbon content of biomass, and char recovery efficiency from various stove
systems and char producing systems.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>4: For a stove producing char intentionally, 40% of the C in the
incoming fuel is unburned, and is thus available for use as biochar.
Additionally, the 40% of the "Incoming Carbon" can be considered as a "carbon
negative benefit", in that this is C that can be removed from the Biosphere.
The 60% of the carbon that was burned yields "Carbon Neutral Carbon", in that
it came from the atmosphere and combustion simply returns it to the
atmosphere.<BR> <B>[RWL4a: I would replace "C that can
be removed from the Biosphere" with "excess C that is transferred from the
Atmosphere to the Biosphere - with continuing out year benefits (in both
categories) if properly produced and placed"]</B></FONT><FONT
face=Arial></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Is this helpful in getting you closer to what you want to
accomplish? Can you perhaps re-state what you want to accomplish?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL4b: Yes to 1st Q - much; thanks.</B> <B> I am trying to get
the water boiling test literature to add information related to C and CO2 -
especially for char-making stoves. I haven't yet said so in this
sequence, but hope to later have comments also showing that biochar can only
be properly analyzed economically by including out-year benefits - some of
which involve other gases such as N2O, CH4. That is down the
road.</B><BR></DIV><B></B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>##KC
4b: I think this is where the two classes of stove (1: Cooking/Heating and 2:
"Climate Change" stove classes) could be helpful. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Best
wishes,</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Kevin</STRONG></DIV><B></B></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><STRONG>
Ron]</STRONG><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>Ron</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=rchiang@cleancookstoves.org href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org"
target=_blank>Ranyee Chiang</A> ; <A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 28, 2012
11:21 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where
is the New Data on Stove</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Kevin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> You ask if your suggestion would simplify things.
The answer is yes. But it wouldn't help at all in what I am
trying to do. My message used the term "CO2" repeatedly. Yours does
not.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> Every stove making char for CO2 reasons had better also do
a good job cooking - including emissions. I am asking for no new
tests. Only a new computation that is based on CO 2.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Nov 28, 2012, at 1:01 PM, "Kevin" <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>May I suggest for your consideration that there be
two distinct categories of stoves:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1: Stoves whose intended purpose is cooking and
heating. (Cooking and Heating Stoves)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2: Stoves whose purpose is "Climate Change
Improvement." (Climate Change Stoves)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Cooking and Heating stoves would have their
efficiency rated on the degree to which "incoming" fuel energy was used to
get the job done. Any char appearing in the ash would be a dead loss, as
far as stove efficiency was concerned. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>On the other hand, Climate Change Stoves would have
their efficiency rated on the difference between the energy content of the
incoming fuel and the energy content of the recovered char. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Relevant Testing Protocols could be developed for
stoves intended for either use. However, a given stove could be tested for
both applications.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Wouldn't that simplify things?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</A> ; <A title=rchiang@cleancookstoves.org
href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org" target=_blank>Ranyee
Chiang</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 28, 2012
3:11 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013:
Where is the New Data on Stove</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ranyee
and list:<BR><BR> Thank you for Monday's GACC
response (below) to Tom. Yours gives me a chance to urge a
relatively small addition to the 4.1.2 water boiling test we have
recently discussed on this list and to which I think you were
responding. My requested addition is to use already-collected data
to also supply a new stove measure that will help those (like myself)
who believe stoves can play a major role in getting both to zero fossil
fuel use and also to 350 (or lower) ppm CO2. This suggestion is
solely built around the term "CO2" - which I don't see enough of in the
GACC web pages.<BR><BR> To do this, I want to
provide/emphasize the percent of the initial fuel's carbon that ended up
as a recalcitrant char for placement in soil (only then called
biochar). All of the data needed to do this are already being
considered, but the ratio (a number near 40-50%) is nowhere provided.
Giving only the weight of the char is insufficient (a ratio near
20-25%). This requested value can be given either in C or CO2 terms
(those dealing with geoengineering costs prefer C, but carbon prices are
almost universally given in CO2 (or CO2-eq) terms). I think
providing both variations will be helpful - especially to emphasize the
differences when costs enter the dialog. That is, a price of
$10/tonne CO2 is the same as $37/tonne C (and we need both to be higher
if we are interested n 350 ppm CO2). Too often, I see the terms
confused.<BR><BR> The present GACC handling of char weight
is to compute its energy content and subtract this from the input
biomass energy in the denominator of an energy efficiency
computation. This bothers some on this list, but I think is
relatively OK if the char is eventually productively used. But if
one wants to really understand how well the rest of the biomass was used
that did not go into char production, then one should simply divide the
saved fossil energy's C or CO2 by the similar quantity in the input
biomass. It is NOT appropriate to say that all of the CO2 produced
in the WBT was carbon neutral. And different fossil fuels would
have different CO2 outputs; the displacement of methane would
displace about half as much CO2 as would displacement of
coal.<BR><BR> This complexity of the displaced fuel is
not highlighted in the GACC material. It is an unfortunate
complexity related to the percent hydrogen in the different fuels
(including charcoal seen as a fuel). Nevertheless, for those
interested in global warming, I suggest that this additional set of data
provided by the GACC WBT's will help clarify why many of us on the stove
list are interested in stove technologies (I was the first stove list
coordinator - always emphasizing how bad charcoal burning is).
Additional GACC data will emphasize the importance of both carbon
neutrality and carbon negativity in the stove world. I do not see
sufficient recognition of this duality in the present GACC
material. The source of the char should be emphasized when you
report on the efficiency of jikos.<BR><BR> I recognize that
I have only given a broad brush description. I will work with the
small amount of charcoal-related data in EPA's (Jim Jetter's) approach
and any in the Berkeley data (which I have requested, but do not yet
have from your office). It is very unfortunate that there is still
so little data to work with for char-making stoves (too much in
the "grey" literature). If anyone can supply me with such data, I
will calculate the new CO2 data I am looking for. What I
think we will find is that char-making stoves have quite high
efficiencies - in the range 80 to 90 % - roughly 40-45% each for the
carbon neutral and carbon negative portions. This does not now
come across in any GACC material I now read. We absolutely need
two efficiency numbers we can add together - and I do not now see
them.<BR><BR> To repeat the essence of the above - CO2 is
the only parameter I have found which can be used to analyze carbon
neutrality and negativity together. Weight and energy units do not
tell the CO2 story. An emphasis on energy alone is fine if you
are not interested in CO2-induced global warming. But the
production of biochar is necessarily accompanied by a reduction in
energy. Biochar enthusiasts recognize that we can't have both high
energy output and high char output. But both are now important.
Having CO2 (or C) appear in the numerators of the separate
carbon neutral and carbon negative terms seems to be a mathematical
necessity. Having the energy content of char appear only in the
denominator of an energy efficiency computation means that the whole
story of char-making stoves is not being told.<BR><BR> I
welcome further dialog on this topic.<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=zwchr>
<B>From: </B>"Ranyee Chiang" <<A
href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org"
target=_blank>rchiang@cleancookstoves.org</A>><BR><B>To: </B><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Monday, November 26, 2012 11:48:05 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>[Stoves]
ETHOS 2013: Where is the New Data on Stove<BR><BR><!--[if !mso]>
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<P class=MsoPlainText>Dear Tom and all,</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>I wanted to jump into this conversation to
emphasize that providing access to data on stove performance in the
field is high on the priority list for the Global Alliance for Clean
Cookstoves. </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>The recently released <A
href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/resources/reports-and-research/?alliance_reports_research=alliance-reports&other=standards"
target=_blank>Stove Performance Inventory</A> has already been
mentioned, which was an effort to pull together existing publically
available data for laboratory and field testing. We will be having
a <A
href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/media-and-events/events/alliance-webinar-stove-performance-inventory.html"
target=_blank>webinar</A> on December 11 4 pm GMT, which will cover the
development of the inventory, results, an overview of the existing
format for the Inventory, and discussion of next steps (keeping the
inventory up to date, improving the accessibility and query-ability of
the interface, etc).</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>All projects selected through the external peer
review process and funded by the Global Alliance (published <A
href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/funding-opportunities/awardees.html"
target=_blank>online</A> when the grants are finalized) are required to
make their data publically available. The most relevant field
studies came out of a recent <A
href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/funding-opportunities/field-studies-to-evaluate.html"
target=_blank>Request for Applications</A>, and these projects are
currently getting started now. The information about these studies
is getting posted online as we speak, since these grants were only
recently finalized. And as these projects and other recently
funded projects progress, that work and the resulting data will be
shared.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>A comment was also made about committees related
to standards and testing. We are working extremely hard to make
discussions and meetings inclusive and widely attended. We will
continue to use channels like this listserv to keep everyone updated
about upcoming activities (online, teleconference, and in person), and
we will continue to support travel to help people attend meetings in
person. I have been posting regular updates on standards and
testing activities in the <A
href="http://community.cleancookstoves.org/discussions/viewcategory/22"
target=_blank>Communities section</A> of the Global Alliance website,
and I am happy to talk to anyone interested in more detailed
updates.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Best regards,</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Ranyee</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<TABLE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none"
class=MsoTableGrid border=1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; WIDTH: 117.9pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=top width=157>
<P class=MsoNormal><image001.png></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; WIDTH: 3in; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=top width=288>
<P class=MsoNormal>Ranyee Chiang, Ph.D.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Senior Technical Manager</P>
<P class=MsoNormal><A href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org"
target=_blank>rchiang@cleancookstoves.org</A></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><A href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/"
target=_blank>www.cleancookstoves.org</A></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:06:01 +0000</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>From: "Bryden, Kenneth [M E]" <<A
href="mailto:kmbryden@iastate.edu" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">kmbryden@iastate.edu</SPAN></A>></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</SPAN></A>></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the New
Data on Stove</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>
Performance in the Field?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Message-ID:</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> <<A
href="mailto:75123EB3655A6E44B6FC942F119B90CA0373EF0E@ITSDAG4A.its.iastate.edu"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">75123EB3655A6E44B6FC942F119B90CA0373EF0E@ITSDAG4A.its.iastate.edu</SPAN></A>></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1252"</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Tom,</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Sounds like a great idea and I'm sure by the
flurry of writing this weekend that it would attract a lot of interest.
I also know that there are a lot of questions that need be answered.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Maybe a format that could work would be a panel
for the whole group followed by a set of talks for those who wish to
continue the discussion. Can you put together a panel and a set of talks
that would represent the divergent views on this topic?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Dean - any thoughts</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Thanks</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Mark</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>On Nov 23, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Tom Miles wrote:</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Mark,</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>You have listed a number of standards and protocol
topics. Now that GACC exists have we made any gains on the science side?
Where is the data? We should be generating good field data by now.
I don?t want to just hear reports about what people have decided in
political committees that nobody seems to be able to attend or vote
in.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>I would like to see a critical review of the
testing protocols and methods with regard to the key metrics and
emissions. For example, the protocols to date have made assumptions
about heating values of fuels and residues ash and charcoal that I have
always felt were just placeholders until someone with larger research
budgets could validate them. Determining the amount of energy left in
the ash or charcoal is a good example. I often get asked what value to
use for the remaining ash/charcoal. I haven?t seen a test where the
remaining charcoal/ash has been directly tested for ash content and
heating value.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Testing the benchmarks. Do the benchmarks that
were derived several years ago make sense now that we have improved
tools for measuring stove performance or do we get the same numbers
because we?re using the same tools? Do the benchmarks tell us anything
about stove performance in the field? Do stoves preform in the field in
the same relative way they are shown to perform in the lab or are some
stoves much better than others (or much worse) when they are used in the
field? Are the stoves designed to the test (e.g. WBT) or to the use in
the field? Do some stoves perform best when they are tested in the lab
and fail in the field? Or, are we even testing for this?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Field applications. Are our tools and metrics of
any use for improving stove performance in actual use? If so then how
are projects in developing countries using these tools to improve their
fuel use and health? How do local, nation, or regional stove projects
use these tools to improve their stoves, or do they just ignore
them?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>QA/QC. When a program buys container loads of
stoves how do we know that they perform within the expectations created
by the test results? Do any of the manufactured stove suppliers test the
quality and performance of their stoves on a regular basis? Is there any
monitoring?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>How has testing been used for different fuels? I
was inspired this week by a photo from Mexican which a construction
worker was using an LPG burner in an eCocina stove (Stove Team
International) because it substantially reduced his LG use. Can we
compare fuel consumption for different fuels? How good are our fuel
consumption metrics?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Health. We still do not have proven direct
correlation between stove emissions and heath. Most of the data seems to
be recycled. Are there new health studies? Has GACC and the many
supporting organizations funded any of the fundamental health studies
that every year Jay Smith tells us are lacking?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>These are some of the questions that I would like
to see addressed at ETHOS.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Looking forward to another productive ETHOS.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Thanks</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Tom</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><A
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com%3cmailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">tmiles@trmiles.com<mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com</SPAN></A>></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><A
href="http://www.trmiles.com%3chttp:/www.trmiles.com"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.trmiles.com<http://www.trmiles.com</SPAN></A>></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><A
href="http://www.stove.bioenergylists.org%3chttp:/www.stove.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.stove.bioenergylists.org<http://www.stove.bioenergylists.org</SPAN></A>></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>From: <A
href="mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu%3cmailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu<mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu</SPAN></A>>
<A href="mailto:[mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu]"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">[mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu]</SPAN></A>
On Behalf Of Bryden, Kenneth [M E]</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 2:05 PM</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; ETHOS -
Listserve</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Subject: [Ethos] ETHOS 2013</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>All,</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>It's that time of year again! We're starting to
get the activities together together for the ETHOS conference. The
conference will be January 25 - 27, 2013 in Seattle. Proposed discussion
topics include</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Update on the Global Alliance and their
activities</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Standardizing Reporting on IWA Indicators</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Stove Performance Inventory, Sharing Public
Data, and Establishing Common Data Formats</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Update on ISO Process</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Updates on Protocol Developments (including
possibly charcoal, plancha, batch-fed, durability, finalizing WBT from
public comment period)</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Let us know what else you would like to talk
about. A lot is happening and I'm sure it will be as exciting as ever.
I'd appreciate having your ideas on topics and panels by November
15.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Abstracts for papers and talks are due January
1.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>For more details, to register, and to submit your
abstract the conference web site is <A
href="http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php</SPAN></A>.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Please send your ideas directly to Dean and I.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Best regards</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Mark</P>
<P
class=MsoPlainText>_______________________________________________</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Stoves mailing list</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address <A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org%3cmailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</SPAN></A>></P>
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<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><A href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</SPAN></A></P>
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<P class=MsoPlainText>------------------------------</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Message: 6</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:19:46 -0800</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>From: "Tom Miles" <<A
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">tmiles@trmiles.com</SPAN></A>></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</SPAN></A>></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the New
Data on Stove</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>
Performance in the
Field?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Message-ID: <<A
href="mailto:00db01cdcbf1$da33d800$8e9b8800$@trmiles.com"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">00db01cdcbf1$da33d800$8e9b8800$@trmiles.com</SPAN></A>></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Good idea. We can work on it over the next few of
weeks. Sorting out the objectives and use of tests, methods and formal
protocols would be the place to start.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Tom</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>From: Stoves <A
href="mailto:[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]</SPAN></A>
On Behalf Of Bryden, Kenneth [M E]</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 8:06 AM</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the New
Data on Stove Performance in the Field?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Tom,</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Sounds like a great idea and I'm sure by the
flurry of writing this weekend that it would attract a lot of interest.
I also know that there are a lot of questions that need be answered.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Maybe a format that could work would be a panel
for the whole group followed by a set of talks for those who wish to
continue the discussion. Can you put together a panel and a set of talks
that would represent the divergent views on this topic?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Dean - any thoughts</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Thanks</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Mark</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>On Nov 23, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Tom Miles wrote:</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Mark,</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>You have listed a number of standards and protocol
topics. Now that GACC exists have we made any gains on the science side?
Where is the data? We should be generating good field data by now.
I don't want to just hear reports about what people have decided in
political committees that nobody seems to be able to attend or vote
in.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>I would like to see a critical review of the
testing protocols and methods with regard to the key metrics and
emissions. For example, the protocols to date have made assumptions
about heating values of fuels and residues ash and charcoal that I have
always felt were just placeholders until someone with larger research
budgets could validate them. Determining the amount of energy left in
the ash or charcoal is a good example. I often get asked what value to
use for the remaining ash/charcoal. I haven't seen a test where the
remaining charcoal/ash has been directly tested for ash content and
heating value.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Testing the benchmarks. Do the benchmarks that
were derived several years ago make sense now that we have improved
tools for measuring stove performance or do we get the same numbers
because we're using the same tools? Do the benchmarks tell us anything
about stove performance in the field? Do stoves preform in the field in
the same relative way they are shown to perform in the lab or are some
stoves much better than others (or much worse) when they are used in the
field? Are the stoves designed to the test (e.g. WBT) or to the use in
the field? Do some stoves perform best when they are tested in the lab
and fail in the field? Or, are we even testing for this?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Field applications. Are our tools and metrics of
any use for improving stove performance in actual use? If so then how
are projects in developing countries using these tools to improve their
fuel use and health? How do local, nation, or regional stove projects
use these tools to improve their stoves, or do they just ignore
them?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>QA/QC. When a program buys container loads of
stoves how do we know that they perform within the expectations created
by the test results? Do any of the manufactured stove suppliers test the
quality and performance of their stoves on a regular basis? Is there any
monitoring?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>How has testing been used for different fuels? I
was inspired this week by a photo from Mexican which a construction
worker was using an LPG burner in an eCocina stove (Stove Team
International) because it substantially reduced his LG use. Can we
compare fuel consumption for different fuels? How good are our fuel
consumption metrics?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Health. We still do not have proven direct
correlation between stove emissions and heath. Most of the data seems to
be recycled. Are there new health studies? Has GACC and the many
supporting organizations funded any of the fundamental health studies
that every year Jay Smith tells us are lacking?</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>These are some of the questions that I would like
to see addressed at ETHOS.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Looking forward to another productive ETHOS.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Thanks</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Tom</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><A href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">tmiles@trmiles.com</SPAN></A></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><A href="http://www.trmiles.com"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.trmiles.com</SPAN></A></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><A href="http://www.stove.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank><SPAN
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<P class=MsoPlainText>From: <A
href="mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu</SPAN></A>
<A href="mailto:[mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu]"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">[mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu]</SPAN></A></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>On Behalf Of Bryden, Kenneth [M E]</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 2:05 PM</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; ETHOS -
Listserve</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Subject: [Ethos] ETHOS 2013</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>All,</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>It's that time of year again! We're starting to
get the activities together together for the ETHOS conference. The
conference will be January 25 - 27,</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>2013 in Seattle. Proposed discussion topics
include</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Update on the Global Alliance and their
activities</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Standardizing Reporting on IWA Indicators</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Stove Performance Inventory, Sharing Public
Data, and Establishing Common Data Formats</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Update on ISO Process</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>- Updates on Protocol Developments (including
possibly charcoal, plancha, batch-fed, durability, finalizing WBT from
public comment period)</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Let us know what else you would like to talk
about. A lot is happening and I'm sure it will be as exciting as ever.
I'd appreciate having your ideas on topics and panels by November
15.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Abstracts for papers and talks are due January
1.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>For more details, to register, and to submit your
abstract the conference web site is <A
href="http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php</SPAN></A>.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Please send your ideas directly to Dean and I.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Best regards</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>Mark</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P
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<P class=MsoPlainText>End of Stoves Digest, Vol 27, Issue 44</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>**************************************</P>
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