<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">Kevin and list:<br><br> I think you are very close to getting what I am saying. I will next reply to Crispin - and so leave some of a full response below to my responses there.<br><br> Some of this also relates to comments made today by Jim Jetter in response to Crispin - which message I hope all will look at carefully..<br><br> A few responses below. Not needing a response to #1.<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Kevin" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:27:40 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the New Data on Stove<br><br>
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I missed what you are trying to accomplish, but I offer
the following:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">1: C+O2 ---> CO2 tell us that 1 gram of C is equivalent
to 44/12 = 3.66 gms CO2. Your 3.7 factor below is correct.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">2: Any stove burning any biomass sourced fuel is
inherently "Carbon Neutral", at the very least, in that no new C is added to the
Biosphere.<br> <b>[RWL2: As Crispin noted, one can inappropriately use some biomass. So, I would not use the word "any". This is a main point of dialog in current EPA deliberations about bioenergy. I am comfortable with cutting forests in the US if overall US biomass growth exceeds cutting. But mostly I think we will see dedicated areas of species like switch grass and miscanthus - so the CO2 payback time can be measured in months, not decades. To repeat, not every biomass fuel should be eligible for carbon credits.]</b><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">3: The case where 100% of the C in the fuel (biomass
or char) is burned to CO2 would result in a "Carbon Neutral" stove. This
condition has the potential for giving a stove with maximum efficiency, in the
"Class 1" context... least fuel requirement to "get the job done." There is no
carbon sequestration. There is no carbon negativity.</font></div>
<div><b> [RWL3a: OK. But not all CO2 produced in the "Class 1" stove should be eligible for carbon credits. Stoves receiving a credit up front should also have to make some guarantees on char lifetime. etc. ]</b><br><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial">3: A stove that burns part of the C in a biomass sourced
fuel is inherently "Carbon Negative" in that a portion of the C in the fuel is
removed from the biosphere as char, either unintentionally (as "carbon loss" to
the ash) or intentionally (when operated to produce biochar.)<br> <b>[RWL3b: OK - but I prefer to use the word "pyrolyzes" in place of "burns". It should be very rare that any recoverable char is thought of as a "loss". Any char is more valuable placed in soil than anywhere else (although maybe should first provide other non-soil benefits). </b><br><br></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">(For the sake of simplicity in the example below, I assume
that wood is 50% Carbon, and that biochar recovery is 20% of
weight of the dry wood feed to a TLUD stove</font> <font face="Arial">
You can pick whatever numbers you feel are appropriate and re-do the
calculations.)<br> <b>[RWL3c: The point of my note was that these numbers (and more below) should be a featured output of char-producing stove testing. No need to assume anything (and I recognize you are only giving an example.]</b><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">4: For a stove producing char intentionally, 40% of the C
in the incoming fuel is unburned, and is thus available for use as biochar.
Additionally, the 40% of the "Incoming Carbon" can be considered as a "carbon
negative benefit", in that this is C that can be removed from the Biosphere. The
60% of the carbon that was burned yields "Carbon Neutral Carbon", in that it
came from the atmosphere and combustion simply returns it to the
atmosphere.<br> <b>[RWL4a: I would replace "C that can be removed from the Biosphere" with "excess C that is transferred from the Atmosphere to the Biosphere - with continuing out year benefits (in both categories) if properly produced and placed"]</b><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Is this helpful in getting you closer to what you want to
accomplish? Can you perhaps re-state what you want to accomplish?</font></div>
<div> <b>[RWL4b: Yes to 1st Q - much; thanks.</b> <b> I am trying to get the water boiling test literature to add information related to C and CO2 - especially for char-making stoves. I haven't yet said so in this sequence, but hope to later have comments also showing that biochar can only be properly analyzed economically by including out-year benefits - some of which involve other gases such as N2O, CH4. That is down the road.</b><br><b><br> Ron]</b><br><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">Ron</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="rchiang@cleancookstoves.org" href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org" target="_blank">Ranyee Chiang</a> ; <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:21
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where
is the New Data on Stove</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>Kevin</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> You ask if your suggestion would simplify things. The
answer is yes. But it wouldn't help at all in what I am trying to do.
My message used the term "CO2" repeatedly. Yours does not.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> Every stove making char for CO2 reasons had better also do a
good job cooking - including emissions. I am asking for no new tests.
Only a new computation that is based on CO 2.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Ron<br><br></div>
<div><br>On Nov 28, 2012, at 1:01 PM, "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">May I suggest for your consideration that there be two
distinct categories of stoves:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">1: Stoves whose intended purpose is cooking and
heating. (Cooking and Heating Stoves)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">and </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">2: Stoves whose purpose is "Climate Change
Improvement." (Climate Change Stoves)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Cooking and Heating stoves would have their efficiency
rated on the degree to which "incoming" fuel energy was used to get the job
done. Any char appearing in the ash would be a dead loss, as far as stove
efficiency was concerned. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">On the other hand, Climate Change Stoves would have
their efficiency rated on the difference between the energy content of the
incoming fuel and the energy content of the recovered char. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Relevant Testing Protocols could be developed for
stoves intended for either use. However, a given stove could be tested for
both applications.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Wouldn't that simplify things?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves</a> ; <a title="rchiang@cleancookstoves.org" href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org" target="_blank">Ranyee Chiang</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 28, 2012
3:11 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013:
Where is the New Data on Stove</div>
<div><br></div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ranyee
and list:<br><br> Thank you for Monday's GACC
response (below) to Tom. Yours gives me a chance to urge a
relatively small addition to the 4.1.2 water boiling test we have recently
discussed on this list and to which I think you were responding. My
requested addition is to use already-collected data to also supply a new
stove measure that will help those (like myself) who believe stoves can
play a major role in getting both to zero fossil fuel use and also to 350
(or lower) ppm CO2. This suggestion is solely built around the term
"CO2" - which I don't see enough of in the GACC web
pages.<br><br> To do this, I want to provide/emphasize
the percent of the initial fuel's carbon that ended up as a recalcitrant
char for placement in soil (only then called biochar). All of the
data needed to do this are already being considered, but the ratio (a
number near 40-50%) is nowhere provided. Giving only the weight of
the char is insufficient (a ratio near 20-25%). This requested value can
be given either in C or CO2 terms (those dealing with geoengineering costs
prefer C, but carbon prices are almost universally given in CO2 (or
CO2-eq) terms). I think providing both variations will be helpful -
especially to emphasize the differences when costs enter the dialog.
That is, a price of $10/tonne CO2 is the same as $37/tonne C (and we need
both to be higher if we are interested n 350 ppm CO2). Too often, I
see the terms confused.<br><br> The present GACC handling of
char weight is to compute its energy content and subtract this from the
input biomass energy in the denominator of an energy efficiency
computation. This bothers some on this list, but I think is
relatively OK if the char is eventually productively used. But if
one wants to really understand how well the rest of the biomass was used
that did not go into char production, then one should simply divide the
saved fossil energy's C or CO2 by the similar quantity in the input
biomass. It is NOT appropriate to say that all of the CO2 produced
in the WBT was carbon neutral. And different fossil fuels would have
different CO2 outputs; the displacement of methane would displace
about half as much CO2 as would displacement of
coal.<br><br> This complexity of the displaced fuel is
not highlighted in the GACC material. It is an unfortunate
complexity related to the percent hydrogen in the different fuels
(including charcoal seen as a fuel). Nevertheless, for those
interested in global warming, I suggest that this additional set of data
provided by the GACC WBT's will help clarify why many of us on the stove
list are interested in stove technologies (I was the first stove list
coordinator - always emphasizing how bad charcoal burning is).
Additional GACC data will emphasize the importance of both carbon
neutrality and carbon negativity in the stove world. I do not see
sufficient recognition of this duality in the present GACC material.
The source of the char should be emphasized when you report on the
efficiency of jikos.<br><br> I recognize that I have only
given a broad brush description. I will work with the small amount
of charcoal-related data in EPA's (Jim Jetter's) approach and any in the
Berkeley data (which I have requested, but do not yet have from your
office). It is very unfortunate that there is still so little data
to work with for char-making stoves (too much in the "grey"
literature). If anyone can supply me with such data, I will
calculate the new CO2 data I am looking for. What I think we
will find is that char-making stoves have quite high efficiencies - in the
range 80 to 90 % - roughly 40-45% each for the carbon neutral and carbon
negative portions. This does not now come across in any GACC
material I now read. We absolutely need two efficiency numbers we
can add together - and I do not now see them.<br><br> To repeat the
essence of the above - CO2 is the only parameter I have found which
can be used to analyze carbon neutrality and negativity together.
Weight and energy units do not tell the CO2 story. An emphasis on
energy alone is fine if you are not interested in CO2-induced global
warming. But the production of biochar is necessarily accompanied by
a reduction in energy. Biochar enthusiasts recognize that we can't
have both high energy output and high char output. But both are now
important. Having CO2 (or C) appear in the numerators of the
separate carbon neutral and carbon negative terms seems to be a
mathematical necessity. Having the energy content of char appear
only in the denominator of an energy efficiency computation means that the
whole story of char-making stoves is not being told.<br><br> I
welcome further dialog on this topic.<br><br>Ron<br><br><br>
<hr id="zwchr">
<b>From: </b>"Ranyee Chiang" <<a href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org" target="_blank">rchiang@cleancookstoves.org</a>><br><b>To:
</b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><b>Sent:
</b>Monday, November 26, 2012 11:48:05 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>[Stoves]
ETHOS 2013: Where is the New Data on Stove<br><br><!--[if !mso]>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">Dear Tom and all,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I wanted to jump into this conversation to emphasize
that providing access to data on stove performance in the field is high on
the priority list for the Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves. </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The recently released <a href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/resources/reports-and-research/?alliance_reports_research=alliance-reports&other=standards" target="_blank">Stove Performance Inventory</a> has already been mentioned,
which was an effort to pull together existing publically available data
for laboratory and field testing. We will be having a <a href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/media-and-events/events/alliance-webinar-stove-performance-inventory.html" target="_blank">webinar</a> on December 11 4 pm GMT, which will cover the
development of the inventory, results, an overview of the existing format
for the Inventory, and discussion of next steps (keeping the inventory up
to date, improving the accessibility and query-ability of the interface,
etc).</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">All projects selected through the external peer
review process and funded by the Global Alliance (published <a href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/funding-opportunities/awardees.html" target="_blank">online</a> when the grants are finalized) are required to
make their data publically available. The most relevant field
studies came out of a recent <a href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/funding-opportunities/field-studies-to-evaluate.html" target="_blank">Request for Applications</a>, and these projects are
currently getting started now. The information about these studies
is getting posted online as we speak, since these grants were only
recently finalized. And as these projects and other recently funded
projects progress, that work and the resulting data will be shared.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">A comment was also made about committees related to
standards and testing. We are working extremely hard to make
discussions and meetings inclusive and widely attended. We will
continue to use channels like this listserv to keep everyone updated about
upcoming activities (online, teleconference, and in person), and we will
continue to support travel to help people attend meetings in person.
I have been posting regular updates on standards and testing activities in
the <a href="http://community.cleancookstoves.org/discussions/viewcategory/22" target="_blank">Communities section</a> of the Global Alliance website, and
I am happy to talk to anyone interested in more detailed updates.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Best regards,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Ranyee</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Ranyee Chiang, Ph.D.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Senior Technical Manager</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org" target="_blank">rchiang@cleancookstoves.org</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.cleancookstoves.org/" target="_blank">www.cleancookstoves.org</a></p></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:06:01 +0000</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: "Bryden, Kenneth [M E]" <<a href="mailto:kmbryden@iastate.edu" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">kmbryden@iastate.edu</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the New
Data on Stove</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">
Performance in the Field?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Message-ID:</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <<a href="mailto:75123EB3655A6E44B6FC942F119B90CA0373EF0E@ITSDAG4A.its.iastate.edu" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">75123EB3655A6E44B6FC942F119B90CA0373EF0E@ITSDAG4A.its.iastate.edu</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Tom,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sounds like a great idea and I'm sure by the flurry
of writing this weekend that it would attract a lot of interest. I also
know that there are a lot of questions that need be answered.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Maybe a format that could work would be a panel for
the whole group followed by a set of talks for those who wish to continue
the discussion. Can you put together a panel and a set of talks that would
represent the divergent views on this topic?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Dean - any thoughts</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Mark</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On Nov 23, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Tom Miles wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Mark,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">You have listed a number of standards and protocol
topics. Now that GACC exists have we made any gains on the science side?
Where is the data? We should be generating good field data by now. I
don?t want to just hear reports about what people have decided in
political committees that nobody seems to be able to attend or vote
in.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I would like to see a critical review of the testing
protocols and methods with regard to the key metrics and emissions. For
example, the protocols to date have made assumptions about heating values
of fuels and residues ash and charcoal that I have always felt were just
placeholders until someone with larger research budgets could validate
them. Determining the amount of energy left in the ash or charcoal is a
good example. I often get asked what value to use for the remaining
ash/charcoal. I haven?t seen a test where the remaining charcoal/ash has
been directly tested for ash content and heating value.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Testing the benchmarks. Do the benchmarks that were
derived several years ago make sense now that we have improved tools for
measuring stove performance or do we get the same numbers because we?re
using the same tools? Do the benchmarks tell us anything about stove
performance in the field? Do stoves preform in the field in the same
relative way they are shown to perform in the lab or are some stoves much
better than others (or much worse) when they are used in the field? Are
the stoves designed to the test (e.g. WBT) or to the use in the field? Do
some stoves perform best when they are tested in the lab and fail in the
field? Or, are we even testing for this?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Field applications. Are our tools and metrics of any
use for improving stove performance in actual use? If so then how are
projects in developing countries using these tools to improve their fuel
use and health? How do local, nation, or regional stove projects use these
tools to improve their stoves, or do they just ignore them?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">QA/QC. When a program buys container loads of stoves
how do we know that they perform within the expectations created by the
test results? Do any of the manufactured stove suppliers test the quality
and performance of their stoves on a regular basis? Is there any
monitoring?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">How has testing been used for different fuels? I was
inspired this week by a photo from Mexican which a construction worker was
using an LPG burner in an eCocina stove (Stove Team International) because
it substantially reduced his LG use. Can we compare fuel consumption for
different fuels? How good are our fuel consumption metrics?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Health. We still do not have proven direct
correlation between stove emissions and heath. Most of the data seems to
be recycled. Are there new health studies? Has GACC and the many
supporting organizations funded any of the fundamental health studies that
every year Jay Smith tells us are lacking?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">These are some of the questions that I would like to
see addressed at ETHOS.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Looking forward to another productive ETHOS.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Tom</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com%3cmailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">tmiles@trmiles.com<mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.trmiles.com%3chttp:/www.trmiles.com" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.trmiles.com<http://www.trmiles.com</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.stove.bioenergylists.org%3chttp:/www.stove.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.stove.bioenergylists.org<http://www.stove.bioenergylists.org</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: <a href="mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu%3cmailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu<mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu</span></a>>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu]" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">[mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu]</span></a>
On Behalf Of Bryden, Kenneth [M E]</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 2:05 PM</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; ETHOS -
Listserve</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: [Ethos] ETHOS 2013</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">All,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">It's that time of year again! We're starting to get
the activities together together for the ETHOS conference. The conference
will be January 25 - 27, 2013 in Seattle. Proposed discussion topics
include</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Update on the Global Alliance and their
activities</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Standardizing Reporting on IWA Indicators</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Stove Performance Inventory, Sharing Public Data,
and Establishing Common Data Formats</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Update on ISO Process</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Updates on Protocol Developments (including
possibly charcoal, plancha, batch-fed, durability, finalizing WBT from
public comment period)</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Let us know what else you would like to talk about.
A lot is happening and I'm sure it will be as exciting as ever. I'd
appreciate having your ideas on topics and panels by November 15.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Abstracts for papers and talks are due January
1.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">For more details, to register, and to submit your
abstract the conference web site is <a href="http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php</span></a>.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Please send your ideas directly to Dean and I.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Best regards</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Mark</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Stoves mailing list</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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<p class="MsoPlainText">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the
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<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:</p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">------------------------------</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Message: 6</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:19:46 -0800</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: "Tom Miles" <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">tmiles@trmiles.com</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the New
Data on Stove</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">
Performance in the
Field?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:00db01cdcbf1$da33d800$8e9b8800$@trmiles.com" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">00db01cdcbf1$da33d800$8e9b8800$@trmiles.com</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Good idea. We can work on it over the next few of
weeks. Sorting out the objectives and use of tests, methods and formal
protocols would be the place to start.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Tom</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: Stoves <a href="mailto:[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]</span></a>
On Behalf Of Bryden, Kenneth [M E]</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 8:06 AM</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS 2013: Where is the New
Data on Stove Performance in the Field?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Tom,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sounds like a great idea and I'm sure by the flurry
of writing this weekend that it would attract a lot of interest. I also
know that there are a lot of questions that need be answered.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Maybe a format that could work would be a panel for
the whole group followed by a set of talks for those who wish to continue
the discussion. Can you put together a panel and a set of talks that would
represent the divergent views on this topic?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Dean - any thoughts</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Mark</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On Nov 23, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Tom Miles wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Mark,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">You have listed a number of standards and protocol
topics. Now that GACC exists have we made any gains on the science side?
Where is the data? We should be generating good field data by now. I
don't want to just hear reports about what people have decided in
political committees that nobody seems to be able to attend or vote
in.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I would like to see a critical review of the testing
protocols and methods with regard to the key metrics and emissions. For
example, the protocols to date have made assumptions about heating values
of fuels and residues ash and charcoal that I have always felt were just
placeholders until someone with larger research budgets could validate
them. Determining the amount of energy left in the ash or charcoal is a
good example. I often get asked what value to use for the remaining
ash/charcoal. I haven't seen a test where the remaining charcoal/ash has
been directly tested for ash content and heating value.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Testing the benchmarks. Do the benchmarks that were
derived several years ago make sense now that we have improved tools for
measuring stove performance or do we get the same numbers because we're
using the same tools? Do the benchmarks tell us anything about stove
performance in the field? Do stoves preform in the field in the same
relative way they are shown to perform in the lab or are some stoves much
better than others (or much worse) when they are used in the field? Are
the stoves designed to the test (e.g. WBT) or to the use in the field? Do
some stoves perform best when they are tested in the lab and fail in the
field? Or, are we even testing for this?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Field applications. Are our tools and metrics of any
use for improving stove performance in actual use? If so then how are
projects in developing countries using these tools to improve their fuel
use and health? How do local, nation, or regional stove projects use these
tools to improve their stoves, or do they just ignore them?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">QA/QC. When a program buys container loads of stoves
how do we know that they perform within the expectations created by the
test results? Do any of the manufactured stove suppliers test the quality
and performance of their stoves on a regular basis? Is there any
monitoring?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">How has testing been used for different fuels? I was
inspired this week by a photo from Mexican which a construction worker was
using an LPG burner in an eCocina stove (Stove Team International) because
it substantially reduced his LG use. Can we compare fuel consumption for
different fuels? How good are our fuel consumption metrics?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Health. We still do not have proven direct
correlation between stove emissions and heath. Most of the data seems to
be recycled. Are there new health studies? Has GACC and the many
supporting organizations funded any of the fundamental health studies that
every year Jay Smith tells us are lacking?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">These are some of the questions that I would like to
see addressed at ETHOS.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Looking forward to another productive ETHOS.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Tom</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">tmiles@trmiles.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.trmiles.com" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.trmiles.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.stove.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.stove.bioenergylists.org</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: <a href="mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu</span></a>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu]" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">[mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu]</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On Behalf Of Bryden, Kenneth [M E]</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 2:05 PM</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; ETHOS -
Listserve</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: [Ethos] ETHOS 2013</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">All,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">It's that time of year again! We're starting to get
the activities together together for the ETHOS conference. The conference
will be January 25 - 27,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">2013 in Seattle. Proposed discussion topics
include</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Update on the Global Alliance and their
activities</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Standardizing Reporting on IWA Indicators</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Stove Performance Inventory, Sharing Public Data,
and Establishing Common Data Formats</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Update on ISO Process</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Updates on Protocol Developments (including
possibly charcoal, plancha, batch-fed, durability, finalizing WBT from
public comment period)</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Let us know what else you would like to talk about.
A lot is happening and I'm sure it will be as exciting as ever. I'd
appreciate having your ideas on topics and panels by November 15.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Abstracts for papers and talks are due January
1.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">For more details, to register, and to submit your
abstract the conference web site is <a href="http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/conference.php</span></a>.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Please send your ideas directly to Dean and I.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Best regards</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Mark</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Stoves mailing list</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">.org</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:</p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Digest Footer</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________</p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">------------------------------</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">End of Stoves Digest, Vol 27, Issue 44</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">**************************************</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
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