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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I frequently use similar method as Paul Olivier for quenching the reaction between char and oxygen. I pour the residual char to a smallish metal
container and the place rapidly an air-tight cover on the container. This is in few seconds and without breathing to avoid inhaling small particles.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The charcoal remains hot for some time in the container, but it can consume only the oxygen left in the container. One litre of air (200oC) weighs
0,74 grams and oxygen in it (23 mass %) weighs 0,17 grams. The carbon oxygen weight ratio is between 0,375 and 0,75, where the first figure assumes CO2 as the product in oxidation and the latter CO. So, if one litre of air is left in the container with the
char, it can consume 0,064… 0,13 grams char during quenching provided that the cover is air-tight. If one choose a smaller container leaving less (than 1 litre in this illustration) room for air, the loss of char will be smaller.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This is much easier that quenching in water or some mixing with other material. One could carry out experiments to find out the error and maybe
make an experimental correlation between water quenching method and this method for correcting the error. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Jaakko Saastamoinen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">PS. I store the char and burn it later in winter in a masonry stove for heating. It is about -20 oC now in Central Finland.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 5. joulukuuta 2012 6:47<br>
<b>To:</b> rongretlarson@comcast.net; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I am sorry to be so brief. Just a matter of time available. I am at a workshop. I owe a few proper responses here and there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But, I like the idea Frank suggested which is to use small metal balls. These could be washers of some other easily obtained smooth metal parts.
They are reusable. The point is to cool the char rapidly to prevent further combustion – nothing more. Getting the temperature below 300 very rapidly and below 100 rapidly is enough.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The quantity of char to be cooled can be roughly estimated and then it can be thrown into a container with the small metal parts and rotated or
shaken. The metal is easily and accurately separated (not so easy with sand) and the mass determined. Its properties can be obtained by several methods, one proposed by Frans last night which I like.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I believe this is going to come right very soon. I will circulate both concepts to others not on the list.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> [<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Frank Shields; Elisha Moore-Delate<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">List and ccs<br>
<br>
I haven't seen mentioned today a possible approach that might solve some of the indicated problems for extinguishing a char-making batch stove. This is the same that I mentioned to a smaller group a day or so ago. The idea would be to use a rock dust
that one might want anyway for improving the char's soil augmentation properties. Some rock dusts are like biochar - carbon negative (as an oxide, hydroxide, sulfate etc changes with time over to a carbonate).<br>
<br>
It would be simple to weigh (maybe just measure the volume of) the rock dust placed on top of the hot char to block air flow. If char is eligible for carbon credits, then the combination should be worth even more (the exact ratio of credits needs work).<br>
<br>
A white "quenching" powder might even get additional credits for improving the albedo.<br>
<br>
I think we are in agreement that we don't want to use water, nitrogen (costly) or CO2 (costly), but I think dirt (or sand/clay, etc - as suggested by Elisha) is also OK - as long as we weigh the amount used to extinguish. When one needs to measure and
characterize the char, then a "vase" technique like Paul Olivier has suggested is probably needed. But smothering a bed of char which something that adds value to the char sounds easier to apply/manipulate than moving the hot char.<br>
<br>
I am assisting with a project to collect data on biochar and rock dusts (and even better their use together) in field-performance. I'd love to hear from anyone with such data.<br>
<br>
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:14:13 PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Use an aluminum plate!</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">One problem would be the size of the char and the fact there is unburned torrefied wood inside some char. It won’t crush easily. It is a reason
the error on the estimated heat value in the char is large.</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Crispin</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Dear Frank</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">What about 2 steel pie plates? Put char in one and cover with the other.</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">If char was very hot, to enhance cooling rate, set the bottom plate on a paper towel soaked in water, and spray the top plate with a water mist. </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Best wishes,</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Kevin</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">----- Original Message -----
</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com" target="_blank" title="frank@compostlab.com">
Frank Shields</a> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">
'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</a> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> Tuesday, December 04, 2012 5:14 PM</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for
testing stoves</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Paul,</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I like the vase. And having a pot of water on top collecting ‘energy’ as the WACW cools seems like a great method of measuring energy loss during
the cooling that can be added on to the values determined from a ground and tested WACW. Wonder if that would work - Crispin?
</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Frank</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Olivier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 04, 2012 12:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Frank,<br>
<br>
Getting an accurate dry weight of biochar is indispensable in being able to sell it.<br>
If we douse the biochar with water, then we no longer have an accurate measurement of dry weight.<br>
Also biochar right out of the gasifier contains valuable heat that could be used in keeping food warm.<br>
<br>
Therefore I designed a terracotta vase to contain the hot biochar.<br>
A pot placed on top of the vase prevents oxygen from entering.<br>
The vase shown in the drawing below can hold six liters of biochar.<br>
This is the volume of rice hull biochar produced in my 150 gasifier.<br>
<a href="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Terrecotta%20Vase/Drawing/Terracotta%20Vase.pdf" target="_blank">https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Terrecotta%20Vase/Drawing/Terracotta%20Vase.pdf</a><br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
Paul Olivier</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, Frank Shields <<a href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com" target="_blank">frank@compostlab.com</a>> wrote:</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Hi Crispin,<br>
<br>
Weighing the fuel when removed (hot and burning) and dry weight after<br>
soaking with water, draining (screen) and drying is not a convenient<br>
procedure to determine moisture left -and prone to error - but only method I<br>
can think of at the moment.<br>
Water puts out a fire by taking away its heat. So wondering if there is<br>
another method that could be used? Combination nitrogen gas and pieces of<br>
steel in a tumbler? Must be some way besides water.<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
<br>
Frank Shields<br>
Control Laboratories, Inc.<br>
42 Hangar Way<br>
Watsonville, CA 95076<br>
(831) 724-5422 tel<br>
(831) 724-3188 fax<br>
<a href="http://www.biocharlab.com" target="_blank">www.biocharlab.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Stoves [mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br>
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:26 AM<br>
To: Stoves<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves<br>
<br>
Dear Frank<br>
<br>
You are on the right track, in my view. The assumed energy for the wood and<br>
char is a major source of imprecision in the test.<br>
<br>
As for quenching with water: unfortunately we need to know the residual<br>
moisture content of the fuel 'as removed'. That varies a lot depending on<br>
the stove type. Quenching it with nitrogen is an alternative.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Crispin<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: "Frank Shields" <<a href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com" target="_blank">frank@compostlab.com</a>><br>
Sender: "Stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:19:39<br>
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
27/2 Phu Dong Tieng Vuong<br>
Dalat<br>
Vietnam<br>
<br>
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
Skype address: Xpolivier<br>
<a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a></span><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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