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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Frank, Crispin and all, <br>
<br>
For Frank's needs in testing labs in affluent countries, the
suggested methods could include the following (combining thoughts
from several contributors):<br>
<br>
1. Dry Ice (solid CO2), Can be weighed if the CO2 is an
issue. Worth a try, but watch out for the expansion of the
gases. (Usually cooling involves contraction, but the dry ice
will greatly expand.)<br>
<br>
2. ALUMINUM disks or squares or washers. Ball have undesirable
thickness. Flat will take the heat quickly. And can be
separated easily and re-weighed if suspected char dust clinging to
the objects is a quantity of concern (unlikely). <br>
<br>
For testing labs without access to dry ice (distribution or
financial limitations), consider the aluminum flat objects.
These can be made easily in any developing country. Melting of
aluminum drink-cans will do the job. <br>
<br>
Also, ceramic "snuffer containers" (such as Paul Olivier's) might
be designed to receive the aluminum pieces and allow tumbling (the
ceramic will take some of the heat) and then be placed in a
container with water to further pull away the heat. Having
written this, I now add: Why bother with the weight and
fragility of ceramics? Just get a metal container (aluminum
could be superior) with an appropriate lid and even a know
weight. Cooled and can be weighted inside the container.<br>
<br>
Paul (in Kampala)<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 12/4/2012 6:41 PM, Frank Shields wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ron,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
think there is a misunderstanding of my intent. The method I
use in the lab is intended for just measuring the energy at
a snap shot of time (WBT test ends) and then dumping the
char in the dumpster. What you and others mention is another
subject (quenching char for sale). The cost of water,
nitrogen, argon, CO2 and other gases are a non-issue for the
small amount we would use and we make up the cost from the
clients wanting the tests. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 04, 2012 3:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Frank Shields;
Elisha Moore-Delate<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for
testing stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">List
and ccs<br>
<br>
I haven't seen mentioned today a possible approach
that might solve some of the indicated problems for
extinguishing a char-making batch stove. This is the
same that I mentioned to a smaller group a day or so
ago. The idea would be to use a rock dust that one
might want anyway for improving the char's soil
augmentation properties. Some rock dusts are like
biochar - carbon negative (as an oxide, hydroxide,
sulfate etc changes with time over to a carbonate).<br>
<br>
It would be simple to weigh (maybe just measure the
volume of) the rock dust placed on top of the hot char
to block air flow. If char is eligible for carbon
credits, then the combination should be worth even more
(the exact ratio of credits needs work).<br>
<br>
A white "quenching" powder might even get additional
credits for improving the albedo.<br>
<br>
I think we are in agreement that we don't want to use
water, nitrogen (costly) or CO2 (costly), but I think
dirt (or sand/clay, etc - as suggested by Elisha) is
also OK - as long as we weigh the amount used to
extinguish. When one needs to measure and characterize
the char, then a "vase" technique like Paul Olivier has
suggested is probably needed. But smothering a bed of
char which something that adds value to the char sounds
easier to apply/manipulate than moving the hot char.<br>
<br>
I am assisting with a project to collect data on
biochar and rock dusts (and even better their use
together) in field-performance. I'd love to hear from
anyone with such data.<br>
<br>
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
<hr id="zwchr" align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">From:
</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">"Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:14:13 PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for
testing stoves<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Use
an aluminum plate!</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">One
problem would be the size of the char and the fact there
is unburned torrefied wood inside some char. It won’t
crush easily. It is a reason the error on the estimated
heat value in the char is large.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Crispin</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
Stoves [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for
testing stoves</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Dear
Frank</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">What
about 2 steel pie plates? Put char in one and cover
with the other.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">If
char was very hot, to enhance cooling rate, set the
bottom plate on a paper towel soaked in water, and
spray the top plate with a water mist. </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Best
wishes,</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Kevin</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid black
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">-----
Original Message ----- </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com" target="_blank"
title="frank@compostlab.com">Frank Shields</a> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves'</a> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 5:14 PM</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Paul,</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
like the vase. And having a pot of water on top
collecting ‘energy’ as the WACW cools seems like a
great method of measuring energy loss during the
cooling that can be added on to the values determined
from a ground and tested WACW. Wonder if that would
work - Crispin? </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Frank</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
Stoves [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Olivier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 04, 2012 12:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for
testing stoves</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:black">Frank,<br>
<br>
Getting an accurate dry weight of biochar is
indispensable in being able to sell it.<br>
If we douse the biochar with water, then we no longer
have an accurate measurement of dry weight.<br>
Also biochar right out of the gasifier contains
valuable heat that could be used in keeping food warm.<br>
<br>
Therefore I designed a terracotta vase to contain the
hot biochar.<br>
A pot placed on top of the vase prevents oxygen from
entering.<br>
The vase shown in the drawing below can hold six
liters of biochar.<br>
This is the volume of rice hull biochar produced in my
150 gasifier.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Terrecotta%20Vase/Drawing/Terracotta%20Vase.pdf"
target="_blank">https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Terrecotta%20Vase/Drawing/Terracotta%20Vase.pdf</a><br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
Paul Olivier<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Wed,
Dec 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, Frank Shields <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com" target="_blank">frank@compostlab.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:black">Hi Crispin,<br>
<br>
Weighing the fuel when removed (hot and burning) and
dry weight after<br>
soaking with water, draining (screen) and drying is
not a convenient<br>
procedure to determine moisture left -and prone to
error - but only method I<br>
can think of at the moment.<br>
Water puts out a fire by taking away its heat. So
wondering if there is<br>
another method that could be used? Combination
nitrogen gas and pieces of<br>
steel in a tumbler? Must be some way besides water.<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
<br>
Frank Shields<br>
Control Laboratories, Inc.<br>
42 Hangar Way<br>
Watsonville, CA 95076<br>
(831) 724-5422 tel<br>
(831) 724-3188 fax<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.biocharlab.com" target="_blank">www.biocharlab.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Stoves [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
On Behalf Of<br>
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br>
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:26 AM<br>
To: Stoves<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing
stoves<br>
<br>
Dear Frank<br>
<br>
You are on the right track, in my view. The assumed
energy for the wood and<br>
char is a major source of imprecision in the test.<br>
<br>
As for quenching with water: unfortunately we need
to know the residual<br>
moisture content of the fuel 'as removed'. That
varies a lot depending on<br>
the stove type. Quenching it with nitrogen is an
alternative.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Crispin<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: "Frank Shields" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com" target="_blank">frank@compostlab.com</a>><br>
Sender: "Stoves" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:19:39<br>
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<<a
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Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
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Subject: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing
stoves<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
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