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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Crispin and all, (to be posted
also at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a> )<br>
<br>
I have been reading the previous messages, and now offer some
comments:<br>
<br>
1. The FULL data from the Quad 2 tests were provided to stimulate
discussions, and I am delighted that Crispin and some others are
digging into it as an example of the testing procedures. I do
not run the rests and do not participate in the definition of the
test procedures. Maybe other stove manufacturers could release
(or point to current availability of) full results of tests on
their stoves. I will not study their data from the point of view
of test procedures, but others might.<br>
<br>
2. I accept Crispin's position about the difference between FUEL
efficiency and ENERGY efficiency, but with this observation:
Crispin said something like: "Fuel from the woodpile" or "wood
from the fuel pile" should be what is counted. TLUDs take in
fuel and operate best if the full batch of fuel is pyrolyzed,
leaving behind char that is certainly not like the original
fuel. That original fuel is gone!!<br>
<br>
Therefore, if "fuel put into the stove, minus that SAME fuel that
can be saved" is the amount considered in the FUEL efficiency,
then a TLUD could use more fuel that other stoves. HOWEVER:<br>
<br>
3. This could imply that the stove was operated until the end of
pyrolysis even if that was many minutes after the complete WBT was
conducted. Unfair disadvantage to batch stoves. PARTIAL
SOLUTION that creates havoc is that the SAME stove could be
operated identically with the amount of fuel carefully calculated
to have pyroylsis end within a minute after the WBT was
completed. Fill a TLUD with 3 kg of fuel for one test run, and
then do it with 1 kg for the second test run. In other words,
Crispin's correct statement (that the original loading of 1600
grams of wood) is NOT related to the amount of FUEL used up until
the time of the completion of the WBT.<br>
<br>
4. Because TLUDs can utilize so many different types of dry
biomass EQUALLY WELL, and because reduction of burning of WOOD is
so important, then what if the test was done with maize cobs or
with stalks or with briquettes from true "waste" or with inedible
Jatropha seeds? Then the following would be true:<br>
"No fuel was taken from the woodpile" and "No wood
was taken from the fuel pile."<br>
<br>
So the impact of WOODY fuel savings means the TLUDs are the clear
winners!!! <br>
<br>
Remember, the definition that the fuel is to be some uniform type
of WOOD (to ensure comparability between the stoves) is what has
forced the TLUDs to be tested with wood. How well I remember the
Stove Camps at Aprovecho (I have attended seven thus far) where
the kiln-dried Douglas fir was the only acceptable fuel for the
testing.<br>
<br>
5. About testing of char-making stoves, that include the TLUDs:
<br>
<br>
Granted that char is not the original fuel.<br>
<br>
But the remaining char can have substantially greater value on a
weight basis (and perhaps in other ways also) than the biomass
that was the feedstock. And that char can be for A) burning or
for B) biochar (soil amendment) or for C) carbon
sequestration/climate change/carbon credits. AND B and C can be
cumulative!!!! Or D) it could be thrown away.<br>
<br>
Example: Actual figures: Chip Energy has a Biomass Furnace
(AVUD, not TLUD) that can use pellets (and other dry biomass),
with a resultant yield of much heat plus char. Pellets
purchased retail at under one dollar for 10 pounds will yield 2
pounds of char that is quite respectable for sale as biochar at
one dollar for 2 pounds. THAT Biochar has 5 times the monetary
value by weight compared to pellets. Meanwhile, all of the heat
energy was essentially FREE to heat the Chip Energy building
during the winter months.<br>
<br>
If this example is transformed to be a cookstove (and it is, in
the TLUDs), the HEAT for cooking could be considered free if the
user gives reasonable value to the char as biochar. And do it
with maize cobs in a rural village where the soil is poor and
responds well to the addition of biochar. <br>
<br>
So, concerning FUEL effeciency, W H O R E A L L Y C A R E
S what the numbers are from the WBT xxx.yy?<br>
<br>
Yes, I really do care. and we all should care. but "do not
crucify the TLUDs on a cross of carbon."<br>
<br>
Fix (adjust, not "fix" as in illegal horseracing) the tests any
way that allows for true differences between stoves to be
observed. Just please do not have testing that poisons the
waterhole for those who are working with TLUD and other
micro-gasifier stoves.<br>
<br>
Professional chemical engineer Hugh McLaughlin and I are examining
the issues of testing, and output (if any) should be ready before
ETHOS in late January. The task is not a pleasant one.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 12/6/2012 11:37 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear
Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
am going to discuss the WBT 4.1.2 below, not the UCB-WBT 3.1
which is old now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What
matters is what people who select stoves for their promotion
programmes <i>think</i> the fuel consumption number is. If
people think that conducting 15 back to back water boiling
tests will require a wood pile with a mass of 15 times the
WBT fuel consumption number, then we should provide a
consumption number that is the actual fuel consumed per
replication of the test. We speak of ‘dry fuel’ because of
course the moisture content affects the mass consumed.
Correcting for it is reasonable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Is
there any doubt that people think the ‘fuel consumption’
recorded by the end of the test is the amount of fuel
consumed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here
is the text from the CREEC laboratory at the bottom of the
Quad 2 TLUD test:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">The Quad 2 stove boils 5L of water
in 27 minutes, uses 636 g of wood to boil and simmer (cook)
5L and has an energy use of 11713KJ.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This
gives the impression to any careful reader that the fuel
consumed per WBT is 636 g. The actual fuel needed each time
the stove is operated is about 1600 g. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Most
interestingly the energy consumption is 11,713 Joules. It is
energy efficient. The dry fuel equivalent of that amount of
energy is indeed 636 dry g of fuel (gum tree). So why the
large difference? It is because of the charcoal produced,
not burned, and unburnable in that stove. This was what Jim
Jetter and others have been discussing with me off-list. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
suggested fuel consumption definition attempts to describe,
for many different stove types, how to determine the new
fuel you would need per replication to keep on repeating an
experiment, in this case the WBT 4.1.2.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Because
some stoves can use fuel remaining from the previous cooking
cycle. In that is the case, the each test should <i>start</i>
with that same ‘left over fuel’ from a previous cycle. If
you claim that the remaining char can be used in the same
stove next time, prove it by starting the test with the
typical amount left from an earlier identical cycle. The
advantage of this approach is it corrects for fuel heat
determination errors that are almost impossible to correct
in a simple lab. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Suppose
starting a stove wasted, each time, 250 g of fuel just to
get the fire going properly. That is not unused fuel, it is
needed each time because of some characteristics of the
stove. We count it even though the energy needed to cook on
the established fire starts counting when the pot goes on.
The ‘energy needed’ is the figure used to calculate the
thermal efficiency from the fire to the pot. It is a
valuable metric for the design who needs to know how the
stove structure is performing. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As
seen when calculating the CO2, CO and other gas outputs, the
difference between fuel consumption and energy production is
real.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Simply
stated, a stove can be energy efficient but fuel
inefficient.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">+++++++++++++<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Dear Crispin,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"
lang="EN">"Fuel consumption : The mass quantity of new, raw
fuel required to replicate any prescribed performance cycle,
per replication, ignoring the results of the first cycle in
any series of such replications. Combustible material in any
condition remaining from one replication which may be used
by the same device as fuel in the next should be so used
unless it is common practice in the target community not to
do so in which case the test may be conducted with new raw
fuel only."</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Not sure if this applies here but it seems to
me the error is at the start (heating up stove body, getting
the fire lite etc) and at the end (measuring flaming fuel
left over). To test stoves we can continue the burn for a
long time (simmering and boiling) using a –lot- more fuel
reduces these two errors at the ends and may give a better
indication of stove efficiency. If we can’t get the bias
and precision needed when trying to simulate a ‘meal’ we may
need to go to these longer times – and I think we should.
You say that when you say </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"
lang="EN">: The mass quantity of new, raw fuel required to
replicate any prescribed performance cycle. </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD"
lang="EN">It’s the amount of fuel (time burning) that is
adjusted. To determine efficiencies at start and end is
entirely another procedure. As I see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD"
lang="EN">Frank</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0mm 0mm 0mm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Stoves [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 06, 2012 4:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] FW: ETHOS 2013: Where is
the New Data on Stove Performance in the Field?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear
Jim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
am just getting to your message of Nov 30. I have not been
ignoring the conversation. I have just read it and respond
as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Snipped the long but useful message.<br>
<br>
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