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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scientist can identify pyrolytic carbons but I don’t recall what evidence has been put forth for TP soils. Christoph Steiner and others have described a smoldering process of burning crop residues in the Amazons. Various presentations have shown that some Amazonian cultures had a keen understanding of the use of the char and ash from one crop and how it should be applied to improve the productivity of another crop. (See Lehman et. al. eds., Amazonian Dark Earths, Woods et. al. eds., Amazonian Dark Earths: Wm Sombrek’s Vision). The anthropological presentations at the 2010 IBI conference in Brazil did not point to pyrolysis (i.e. low temperature) as a principal tool. It was likely high temperature combustion, or if smoldering, poor combustion rather than pyrolysis that created the bulk of the char which, when composted with other organic matter and blended in the soil became <i>terra preta</i> (Fischer and Glaser 2012, Synergisms between Compost and Biochar for Sustainable Soil Amelioration). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The value of high temperature versus low temperature char and even pyrolyzed, gasified or combusted char, gets blurred when you leave it to process in the physical, chemical and biological environment of the soil. We have yet to see complete analyses of the impact of the microbiology on the biochar, mineral and organic mix influenced by the plants. Depending on the metric used we have seen better results from composted high temperature gasification chars than from blended low temperature pyrolysis chars. We have even seen negative effects of some low temperature chars on biological activity. Those results may seem counter to our understanding of earlier research (e.g. Lehman et. al.) You also have the variable of woody feedstock vs grasses. These have very different cellulosic, lignin and ash compositions. There have been unexpected results with water holding capacity chars from grasses vs. woody chars.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It’s just not that simple. Take any char and a smart gardener and they will learn to use it appropriately by mixing, or promoting an environment for, nutrients, other organics, organisms and soils. (See for example, Biochar in Horticulture, 2012, Horticulture Australia) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Let’s learn how to use all the chars productively and then let the scientists analyze the successful recipes to come up with theories about temperatures, organisms and chemistry. (One of my favorite references for learning about the chemistry of why we cook the way we do is Harold McGee’s On Food and Cooking.) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tom<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 10, 2012 7:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Alex English<br><b>Cc:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear Ron</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Would you agree that the Amazonians made Terra Preta with low temperature char? If so, are there any test results to show that an "intermediate temperature char" would give better results than the "low temperature char?"</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I seem to recall that "high temperature char" and/or "activated char" gives inferior results in a biochar application. Does this impression make sense to you? If so, is there a "preferred char making temperature range"?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Best wishes,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Kevin</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" title="rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:english@kingston.net" title="english@kingston.net">Alex English</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cc:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Monday, December 10, 2012 9:46 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Alex:<br><br> Thanks:<br><br> I see only a few remaining questions related to the thermocouples. My interest is only in being able to report to the soil scientists the temperature at which the char was produced.<br><br> Q1. I think we should be able to say that a time average of a central thermocouple measurement showing a slight drop over time of the highest numbers is a pretty good estimate - that could be reproduced for "any" similar "flaming pyrolysis" approacd. The properties (pH, surface areas, labile component, etc) of such char should be compared (a Master's thesis?) with char produced via other means. I think Nat Mulcahy's non-flaming pyrolysis approach can produce varying temperature char. An all-electric heating approach in any oxygen-free environment , operated at different temperature should also be used to compare the char properties with those from stoves. Maybe that data is already out there?? <br><br> Q2. I think there could be some influence of the initial fuel moisture content. Do you (anyone) have an opinion on that? I am trying to avoid having to always measure temperatures, but still be able to give an indication of the "likely" char temperature, by knowing how long a specific volume or weight of fuel lasted.<br><br> Q3. I wonder if the char temperature as measured by a thermocouple system like yours would also be a function of the fuel itself (species, characteristic size, shape, etc.)<br><br> Q4. I am pretty sure that the top and bottom char will be significantly different in a typical cooking cycle, where a very high flame temperature is desired at first (affecting only the top part of the fuel load), and then a much lower temperature desired later (affecting only the lowest portion of the fuel load). My question, for anyone, is whether an average temperature is at all valuable, if the average (obtained from the total duration of the pyrolysis) covered a wide range of production temperatures. Actually I have heard so many different opinions on the best production temperature - maybe a mixture of char temperatures might be an advantage. Thoughts?<br><br><br>Ron<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center id=zwchr></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>"Alex English" <<a href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a>><br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, December 10, 2012 4:38:56 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Ron,<br><br>On 09/12/2012 8:33 PM, <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Alex etal<br><br> Thanks for the cite. I think I understand most of the plot - which was of amazing duration!. I am especially amazed at how uniform (and high) the flame temperature was in the late time plot, even as the other plots were dropping.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>It is a very steady gas producer. Conditions are constant except for the distance and path composition between the pyrolysis front and the burner. If it can be done over 100cm then why not 200 or 300.<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> a. Since you have this one from 2000, you probably have quite a few more - from which I/we might extract a good bit more information/ Any other similar plots around that you can post?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>No I don't.<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br> b. I am surprised that the "pyrolysis gas temperature" was so much lower than the temperature of the char. Where was the probe for this measurement - and had there been some mixing of secondary air at this point?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>No mixing of secondary air at that point. That occurs in and above in a 5cm burner mixing pipe. The tmperature difference is largely due to the nature of unshielded thermocouples in gas.For the most part thermocouples radiate away heat according to the temperatures of the surfaces that make up the sphere around them. A thermocouple buried in the pellets that are all carbonizing at 700C will give a fairly accurate measurement. A thermocouple in the gas above the top of the pellet bed will radiate to the pellet bed and, in this case the uninsulated container walls. The more that pellet bed shrinks the larger the portion of the radiant sphere that is the cool container walls. The larger the thermocouple, the greater the radiant cooling , the lower the measurement. The higher the temperature the greater the radiant loss, to the forth power. All the gas is also radiating and convecting heat to the container walls. So there are two reasons for a slow drop in gas temperature, and one reason for not trusting either. The same holds true for the absolute value of post combustion measurement. <br><br>There are </span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222;background:white'>gas-</span><em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black;background:white;font-style:normal'>aspirated pyrometers which shield a thermocouple with ceramic layers that approach gas temperatures and give better numbers. We will soon be using an 10 footer to probe the chain grate stoker gasses in carbonizer- pyrolysis-gasifier mode.</span></em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black;background:white'><br><br><em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-style:normal'>Grate fun.</span></em><br><br></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br> c. What is the present disposition of this equipment?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Its in the recoverable bone yard. I should have shown it to Crispin when he was here.....or perhaps not:) <br><br>Alex<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>Nice work<br><br>Ron<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>