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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Tom </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tmiles@trmiles.com href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">Tom Miles</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A>
; <A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 12, 2012 2:18
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] [biochar-policy]
Re: Equipment required for testingstoves</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Charcoal
burns in direct contact with air well above 600 C so any fire at the charcoal
stage would be above 500-600C. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">#
There are two issues here:</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">1:
The temperature at which charcoal burns</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">2:
The average temperature experienced by the charcoal remaining after it was
produced.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Certainly,
charcoal can burn at temperatures well above 600C in air. Surface temperatures
of burning char can be very different than the core temperature.
Consider a flash fire, with high surface temperatures for a short time. Core
temperatures of the wood or char remaining can be very much lower. This is a
very complex heat transfer problem... unsteady state three dimensional heat
transfer to bodies of irregular shape, with change in phase. What is important
is the properties of the "unburned charcoal" remaining for potential use as
biochar.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> Higher
temperature oxidized chars have great adsorption properties. They compost
readily. Great way to make terra preta. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">#
Certainly, such "designer chars" could have very superior properties, but at
greater cost. The "bottom line" for the Farmer or Grower is the
"Benefit/Cost Ratio." Additionally, there may be special soil conditions that
such "designer chars" can handle better than "regular biochar" that works
adequately well for most common soil conditions.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Best
wishes,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Kevin</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Tom<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A>
[mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Kevin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:18 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>;
Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; biochar-policy<BR><B>Cc:</B> Alex
English; Tom Miles<BR><B>Subject:</B> [biochar-policy] Re: [Stoves] Equipment
required for testing stoves<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<DIV id=ygrp-msg>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dear
Ron</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> ; <A title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=english@kingston.net href="mailto:english@kingston.net">Alex
English</A> ; <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin Chisholm</A> ; <A
title=tmiles@trmiles.com href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">Tom Miles</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Tuesday,
December 11, 2012 2:09 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [Stoves]
Equipment required for testing stoves<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Lists (adding
biochar-policy also), Kevin, Alex, Tom (who I add, because he
speaks Portuguese and might have caught an answer when we were in Manaus a
few years ago)<BR><BR> See below<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">
<HR id=zwchr align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">From:
</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">"Kevin" <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR><B>To:
</B>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>>,
"Alex English" <<A
href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</A>><BR><B>Cc:
</B>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Monday, December 10, 2012 8:24:34 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves]
Equipment required for testing stoves<BR><BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Dear
Ron<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Would you agree that
the Amazonians made Terra Preta with low temperature char?
<BR> <B>[RWL1: I think others may have an
answer - maybe based on spectroscopy. I will start looking but don't
know that field well enough to know what others may have concluded about
these ancient soils. I fear that 500 years (minimum) in soil may hide
the initial character that we can readily see in a University setting.
I know from being in several Amazonian biochar "pits" that it is pretty hard
to find a piece big enough to test. I think it entirely possible that
char left over from simple three-stone fires could have been made at 500-600
C (or higher). Would you call those temperatures high or low?]
</B><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"># KC1: Obviously, I
am speculating, but I would speculate that Terra Preta was made with
charcoal from a number of sources:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">1: Char residue
remaining after charring or burning of "wood waste from initial jungle
clearing.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">2: Char residue
remaining from charring or burning of agricultural waste and
weeds</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">3: Char and ash
residue from cooking fires and possibly smudge pots</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">4: Organic
fertilizer supplements, from humanure, composted food scraps, and probably
dredgings from oxbow lakes.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">I would consider
500-600 C to be a "low temperature char." I haven't seen any references to
the existence of bellows technology in ancient Amazonia, that would be
necessary to produce significantly higher temperatures.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">It is likely that
the Amazonian Terrapretians would have quickly noticed if such low
temperature char additions to their agricultural practises were causing poor
results. If that was the case, they likely would have taken steps to avoid
application of char to fields. They would be looking for short term benefits
or harm. Given that they used char on a widespread basis, and that it was
basically low temperature char, it would thus seem that Terra Preta worked
with low temperature char, and it worked relatively quickly, not requiring
an aging period of several years.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR><BR><BR>If
so, are there any test results to show that an "intermediate
temperature char" would give better results than the "low temperature
char?"<BR> <B>[RWL2: I think that people
like Dr. Johannes Lehmann and Evelyn Krull may be getting to an answer for
some specific soil and species. I keep looking for
it.<BR> My note below to Alex was to make it easier
for users to know what is being used Some of my favorite biochar
scientists like Drs. Julie Major and Christoph Steiner were forced to use
char bought off the side of a remote Amazonian road. <BR>
I haven't seen any data emphasizing tests with a range of
temperatures. Drs. Stephen Joseph (low) and Hugh McLaughlin
(high) recommend different temperature regimes.]
</B><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">#KC2: Is it perhaps
likely that "basic low temperature biochar" is good for general agricultural
applications, but that intermediate and high temperature chars may be better
for addressing special agricultural problems. </SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">I seem to recall
that "high temperature char" and/or "activated char" gives inferior results
in a biochar application. <BR> <B>[RWL3: How
about giving a cite for that?] </B><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">#KC3: Unfortunately,
I cannot point to a specific cite.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR><BR>Does this
impression make sense to you? <BR> <B>[RWL4: No -
certainly not as a universal truth/] </B><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">#KC4: Universal
truths are scarce and hard to find. :-) If you put yourself in the
circumstances of an Amazonian Terrapretian of 3,000 years ago, what would
you do differently?</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR><BR>If so, is
there a "preferred char making temperature range"?
<BR> <B>[RWL5: I am sure that it depends a lot on
the intended recipient soil - and probably on the plant species.
#KC5:1 Certainly! Jungle woods can vary in density from balsa at about 10
lb/cubic foot, to Lignum Vitae, at about 68 pounds per cubic
foot.</B><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">My focus in this
exchange below with Alex is to give soil researchers and stove users a
better idea of even getting close to knowing what char-T they are
using. </SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">#KC5:2 Char making
temperature is easy to determine. It should thus be very easy to determine
the importance, or lack thereof, of char making temperature. It would be
very good to know this, to reduce variables in a test
analysis.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> There is a
good bit of information out there relating pH to production temperature -
but pH also depends on fuel size and ash content and pH changes over
time. Who knows what else leads to a "preference"?
<BR> And we also hear from Dr. Spokas that what
happens after char production is maybe as much or more
important. I think it is absolutely amazing that we hear so many
good reports (and few bad reports) when we know so little even about the
char-production temperature - and even the wood species, etc, etc,
etc. Ron] </SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">#KC: With that many
"good reports" and so few "bad reports", and with so many char variables,
this would tend to downplay the importance of char variables. The "bad
reports", presuming that they were competently done, could provide very
important insights into what works, and what doesn't.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Best
wishes,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Kevin</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Best
wishes,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Kevin<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=english@kingston.net href="mailto:english@kingston.net"
target=_blank>Alex English</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Monday, December 10, 2012 9:46 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing
stoves<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Alex:<BR><BR>
Thanks:<BR><BR> I see only a few remaining questions related to the
thermocouples. My interest is only in being able to report to the
soil scientists the temperature at which the char was
produced.<BR><BR> Q1. I think we should be able to
say that a time average of a central thermocouple measurement showing a
slight drop over time of the highest numbers is a pretty good estimate -
that could be reproduced for "any" similar "flaming pyrolysis"
approacd. The properties (pH, surface areas, labile component, etc)
of such char should be compared (a Master's thesis?) with char
produced via other means. I think Nat Mulcahy's non-flaming
pyrolysis approach can produce varying temperature char. An
all-electric heating approach in any oxygen-free environment , operated at
different temperature should also be used to compare the char properties
with those from stoves. Maybe that data is already out there??
<BR><BR> Q2. I think there could be some influence of
the initial fuel moisture content. Do you (anyone) have an opinion
on that? I am trying to avoid having to always measure
temperatures, but still be able to give an indication of the "likely" char
temperature, by knowing how long a specific volume or weight of fuel
lasted.<BR><BR> Q3. I wonder if the char
temperature as measured by a thermocouple system like yours would also be
a function of the fuel itself (species, characteristic size, shape,
etc.)<BR><BR> Q4. I am pretty sure that the top and
bottom char will be significantly different in a typical cooking cycle,
where a very high flame temperature is desired at first (affecting only
the top part of the fuel load), and then a much lower temperature desired
later (affecting only the lowest portion of the fuel load). My
question, for anyone, is whether an average temperature is at all
valuable, if the average (obtained from the total duration of the
pyrolysis) covered a wide range of production temperatures. Actually
I have heard so many different opinions on the best production temperature
- maybe a mixture of char temperatures might be an advantage.
Thoughts?<BR><BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">
<HR id=zwchr align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">From:
</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">"Alex English"
<<A
href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</A>><BR><B>To:
</B><A
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>,
"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Monday, December 10, 2012 4:38:56 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves]
Equipment required for testing stoves<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Ron,<BR><BR>On
09/12/2012 8:33 PM, <A href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Alex
etal<BR><BR> Thanks for the cite. I think I understand most
of the plot - which was of amazing duration!. I am
especially amazed at how uniform (and high) the flame temperature was in
the late time plot, even as the other plots were
dropping.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">It is a very
steady gas producer. Conditions are constant except for the distance and
path composition between the pyrolysis front and the burner. If it can be
done over 100cm then why not 200 or 300.<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">
a. Since you have this one from 2000, you probably have quite
a few more - from which I/we might extract a good bit more
information/ Any other similar plots around that you can
post?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">No I
don't.<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR>
b. I am surprised that the "pyrolysis gas temperature" was so
much lower than the temperature of the char. Where was the probe for this
measurement - and had there been some mixing of secondary air at this
point?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">No mixing of
secondary air at that point. That occurs in and above in a 5cm burner
mixing pipe. The tmperature difference is largely due to the nature
of unshielded thermocouples in gas.For the most part thermocouples radiate
away heat according to the temperatures of the surfaces that make up the
sphere around them. A thermocouple buried in the pellets that are all
carbonizing at 700C will give a fairly accurate measurement. A
thermocouple in the gas above the top of the pellet bed will radiate to
the pellet bed and, in this case the uninsulated container walls. The more
that pellet bed shrinks the larger the portion of the radiant sphere that
is the cool container walls. The larger the thermocouple, the greater the
radiant cooling , the lower the measurement. The higher the temperature
the greater the radiant loss, to the forth power. All the gas is also
radiating and convecting heat to the container walls. So there are two
reasons for a slow drop in gas temperature, and one reason for not
trusting either. The same holds true for the absolute value of post
combustion measurement. <BR><BR>There are </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: #222222">gas-</SPAN><EM><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: black">aspirated
pyrometers which shield a thermocouple with ceramic layers that approach
gas temperatures and give better numbers. We will soon be using an 10
footer to probe the chain grate stoker gasses in carbonizer-
pyrolysis-gasifier mode.</SPAN></EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: black"><BR><BR><EM><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Grate
fun.</SPAN></EM><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR>
c. What is the present disposition of this
equipment?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Its in the
recoverable bone yard. I should have shown it to Crispin when he was
here.....or perhaps not:) <BR><BR>Alex<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR>Nice
work<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">
<HR align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
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