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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Good question Rolf</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I believer there has been little done with it. I
have posited the same question in the past as places like the Marshall Islands
have nothing but</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>soils based on corals and coraline algae and
dressing of humus topsoils built up over the years. Biochar and even charcoal
seem to help</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I have been supplimenting small raised beds on an
off for several year and it seems good.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Michael N Trevor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Majuro </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Marshall Islands</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=energiesnaturals@gmx.de
href="mailto:energiesnaturals@gmx.de">Energies Naturals C.B.</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 13, 2012 8:18
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Stoves] biochar in basic
soils?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hallo all,<BR><BR>this is a question I have asked quite often,
but perhaps never on the list .<BR><BR>Whenever I read about the benefits of
biochar, it is almost always in relation with distinctively acid
soils.<BR><BR>Does anyone know the effect of biochar, itself beeing mostly
basic, on already basic soils ?<BR><BR>Rolf<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Am
13.12.2012 05:10, schrieb Kevin:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:FD6831F4C6CE46F6BAF9782771243268@usera594fda0bf
type="cite">
<META content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv=Context-Type>
<DIV>Dear Tom </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=tmiles@trmiles.com
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Tom Miles</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A
title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 12, 2012 2:18 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] [biochar-policy] Re: Equipment required
for testingstoves</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Charcoal burns in direct contact with air well above 600 C so any
fire at the charcoal stage would be above 500-600C. </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN># There are two issues here:</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN>1: The temperature at which charcoal burns</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN>2: The average temperature experienced by the charcoal remaining
after it was produced.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN>Certainly, charcoal can burn at temperatures well above 600C in
air. Surface temperatures of burning char can be very different than the
core temperature. Consider a flash fire, with high surface
temperatures for a short time. Core temperatures of the wood or char
remaining can be very much lower. This is a very complex heat transfer
problem... unsteady state three dimensional heat transfer to bodies of
irregular shape, with change in phase. What is important is the properties
of the "unburned charcoal" remaining for potential use as
biochar.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN> Higher temperature oxidized chars have great adsorption
properties. They compost readily. Great way to make terra preta.
</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN># Certainly, such "designer chars" could have very superior
properties, but at greater cost. The "bottom line" for the Farmer or
Grower is the "Benefit/Cost Ratio." Additionally, there may be special
soil conditions that such "designer chars" can handle better than "regular
biochar" that works adequately well for most common soil
conditions.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN>Best wishes,</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN>Kevin</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN>Tom </SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN> <A
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A> [<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Kevin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:18
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>; Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves; biochar-policy<BR><B>Cc:</B> Alex English; Tom
Miles<BR><B>Subject:</B> [biochar-policy] Re: [Stoves] Equipment required
for testing stoves </SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P> </P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Dear Ron</SPAN> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN> <A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</A> ; <A
title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">biochar-policy</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN> <A title=english@kingston.net
href="mailto:english@kingston.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Alex
English</A> ; <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Kevin
Chisholm</A> ; <A title=tmiles@trmiles.com
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Tom Miles</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 2:09 AM
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required
for testing stoves </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Lists (adding biochar-policy also), Kevin, Alex,
Tom (who I add, because he speaks Portuguese and might have caught
an answer when we were in Manaus a few years ago)<BR><BR>
See below </SPAN></P>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>From: </SPAN></B><SPAN>"Kevin" <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR><B>To:
</B>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>>, "Alex
English" <<A href="mailto:english@kingston.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">english@kingston.net</A>><BR><B>Cc:
</B>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Monday, December 10, 2012 8:24:34 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves]
Equipment required for testing stoves<BR><BR> </SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Dear Ron </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Would you agree that the Amazonians made Terra Preta with low
temperature char? <BR> <B>[RWL1: I think
others may have an answer - maybe based on spectroscopy. I will
start looking but don't know that field well enough to know what others
may have concluded about these ancient soils. I fear that 500
years (minimum) in soil may hide the initial character that we can
readily see in a University setting. I know from being in several
Amazonian biochar "pits" that it is pretty hard to find a piece big
enough to test. I think it entirely possible that char left over
from simple three-stone fires could have been made at 500-600 C (or
higher). Would you call those temperatures high or low?]
</B></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN># KC1: Obviously, I am speculating, but I would speculate
that Terra Preta was made with charcoal from a number of
sources:</SPAN></B><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><STRONG><SPAN>1: Char residue remaining after charring or
burning of "wood waste from initial jungle
clearing.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><STRONG><SPAN>2: Char residue remaining from charring or burning of
agricultural waste and weeds</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><STRONG><SPAN>3: Char and ash residue from cooking fires and possibly
smudge pots</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><STRONG><SPAN>4: Organic fertilizer supplements, from humanure,
composted food scraps, and probably dredgings from oxbow
lakes.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><STRONG><SPAN>I would consider 500-600 C to be a "low temperature
char." I haven't seen any references to the existence of bellows
technology in ancient Amazonia, that would be necessary to produce
significantly higher temperatures.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><STRONG><SPAN>It is likely that the Amazonian Terrapretians would
have quickly noticed if such low temperature char additions to their
agricultural practises were causing poor results. If that was the case,
they likely would have taken steps to avoid application of char to
fields. They would be looking for short term benefits or harm. Given
that they used char on a widespread basis, and that it was basically low
temperature char, it would thus seem that Terra Preta worked with low
temperature char, and it worked relatively quickly, not requiring an
aging period of several years.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN>
</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN><BR><BR><BR>If so, are there any test results to
show that an "intermediate temperature char" would give better
results than the "low temperature
char?"<BR> <B>[RWL2: I think that
people like Dr. Johannes Lehmann and Evelyn Krull may be getting to an
answer for some specific soil and species. I keep looking for
it.<BR> My note below to Alex was to make it
easier for users to know what is being used Some of my favorite
biochar scientists like Drs. Julie Major and Christoph Steiner were
forced to use char bought off the side of a remote Amazonian road.
<BR> I haven't seen any data emphasizing tests
with a range of temperatures. Drs. Stephen Joseph (low) and
Hugh McLaughlin (high) recommend different temperature regimes.]
</B></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>#KC2: Is it perhaps likely that "basic low temperature
biochar" is good for general agricultural applications, but that
intermediate and high temperature chars may be better for addressing
special agricultural problems. </SPAN></B><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>I seem to recall that "high temperature char" and/or "activated
char" gives inferior results in a biochar application.
<BR> <B>[RWL3: How about giving a cite for
that?] </B></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>#KC3: Unfortunately, I cannot point to a specific
cite.</SPAN></B><SPAN><BR><BR>Does this impression make sense to you?
<BR> <B>[RWL4: No - certainly not as a universal
truth/] </B></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>#KC4: Universal truths are scarce and hard to find. :-) If
you put yourself in the circumstances of an Amazonian Terrapretian of
3,000 years ago, what would you do
differently?</SPAN></B><SPAN><BR><BR>If so, is there a "preferred char
making temperature range"? <BR>
<B>[RWL5: I am sure that it depends a lot on the intended
recipient soil - and probably on the plant species. #KC5:1
Certainly! Jungle woods can vary in density from balsa at about 10
lb/cubic foot, to Lignum Vitae, at about 68 pounds per cubic foot.</B>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>My focus in this exchange below with Alex is to give soil
researchers and stove users a better idea of even getting close to
knowing what char-T they are using. </SPAN></B><SPAN>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>#KC5:2 Char making temperature is easy to determine. It
should thus be very easy to determine the importance, or lack thereof,
of char making temperature. It would be very good to know this, to
reduce variables in a test analysis.</SPAN></B><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN> There is a good bit of information out there relating
pH to production temperature - but pH also depends on fuel size and ash
content and pH changes over time. Who knows what else leads
to a "preference"? <BR> And we also hear from
Dr. Spokas that what happens after char production is maybe as
much or more important. I think it is absolutely amazing
that we hear so many good reports (and few bad reports) when we know so
little even about the char-production temperature - and even the wood
species, etc, etc, etc. Ron]
</SPAN></B><SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>#KC: With that many "good reports" and so few "bad reports",
and with so many char variables, this would tend to downplay the
importance of char variables. The "bad reports", presuming that they
were competently done, could provide very important insights into what
works, and what doesn't.</SPAN></B><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Best wishes,</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Kevin</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Best wishes, </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Kevin </SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN> <A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN> <A title=english@kingston.net
href="mailto:english@kingston.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Alex
English</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</A>
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Monday, December 10, 2012 9:46 PM
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Re: [Stoves] Equipment required
for testing stoves </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Alex:<BR><BR> Thanks:<BR><BR> I see only a few
remaining questions related to the thermocouples. My interest is
only in being able to report to the soil scientists the temperature at
which the char was produced.<BR><BR> Q1. I
think we should be able to say that a time average of a central
thermocouple measurement showing a slight drop over time of the
highest numbers is a pretty good estimate - that could be reproduced
for "any" similar "flaming pyrolysis" approacd. The properties
(pH, surface areas, labile component, etc) of such char should be
compared (a Master's thesis?) with char produced via other
means. I think Nat Mulcahy's non-flaming pyrolysis approach can
produce varying temperature char. An all-electric heating
approach in any oxygen-free environment , operated at different
temperature should also be used to compare the char properties with
those from stoves. Maybe that data is already out there??
<BR><BR> Q2. I think there could be some influence
of the initial fuel moisture content. Do you (anyone) have an
opinion on that? I am trying to avoid having to always
measure temperatures, but still be able to give an indication of the
"likely" char temperature, by knowing how long a specific volume or
weight of fuel lasted.<BR><BR> Q3. I wonder if
the char temperature as measured by a thermocouple system like yours
would also be a function of the fuel itself (species,
characteristic size, shape, etc.)<BR><BR> Q4. I am
pretty sure that the top and bottom char will be significantly
different in a typical cooking cycle, where a very high flame
temperature is desired at first (affecting only the top part of the
fuel load), and then a much lower temperature desired later (affecting
only the lowest portion of the fuel load). My question,
for anyone, is whether an average temperature is at all valuable, if
the average (obtained from the total duration of the pyrolysis)
covered a wide range of production temperatures. Actually I have
heard so many different opinions on the best production temperature -
maybe a mixture of char temperatures might be an advantage.
Thoughts?<BR><BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR></SPAN></P>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<P><B><SPAN>From: </SPAN></B><SPAN>"Alex English" <<A
href="mailto:english@kingston.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">english@kingston.net</A>><BR><B>To: </B><A
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>, "Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Monday, December 10, 2012 4:38:56 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re:
[Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves </SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Ron,<BR><BR>On 09/12/2012 8:33 PM, <A
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> wrote:
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>Alex etal<BR><BR> Thanks for the cite. I think
I understand most of the plot - which was of amazing
duration!. I am especially amazed at how uniform (and
high) the flame temperature was in the late time plot, even as the
other plots were dropping. </SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><SPAN>It is a very steady gas producer. Conditions are constant
except for the distance and path composition between the pyrolysis
front and the burner. If it can be done over 100cm then why not 200 or
300.<BR><BR></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN> a. Since you have this
one from 2000, you probably have quite a few more - from which I/we
might extract a good bit more information/ Any other similar
plots around that you can post? </SPAN></P></DIV>
<P><SPAN>No I don't.<BR><BR></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN><BR> b. I am surprised
that the "pyrolysis gas temperature" was so much lower than the
temperature of the char. Where was the probe for this measurement -
and had there been some mixing of secondary air at this point?
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P><SPAN>No mixing of secondary air at that point. That occurs in and
above in a 5cm burner mixing pipe. The tmperature difference is
largely due to the nature of unshielded thermocouples in gas.For the
most part thermocouples radiate away heat according to the
temperatures of the surfaces that make up the sphere around them. A
thermocouple buried in the pellets that are all carbonizing at 700C
will give a fairly accurate measurement. A thermocouple in the gas
above the top of the pellet bed will radiate to the pellet bed and, in
this case the uninsulated container walls. The more that pellet bed
shrinks the larger the portion of the radiant sphere that is the cool
container walls. The larger the thermocouple, the greater the radiant
cooling , the lower the measurement. The higher the temperature the
greater the radiant loss, to the forth power. All the gas is also
radiating and convecting heat to the container walls. So there are two
reasons for a slow drop in gas temperature, and one reason for not
trusting either. The same holds true for the absolute value of
post combustion measurement. <BR><BR>There are
</SPAN><SPAN>gas-</SPAN><EM><SPAN>aspirated pyrometers which shield a
thermocouple with ceramic layers that approach gas temperatures and
give better numbers. We will soon be using an 10 footer to probe the
chain grate stoker gasses in carbonizer- pyrolysis-gasifier
mode.</SPAN></EM><SPAN><BR><BR><EM><SPAN>Grate
fun.</SPAN></EM><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN><BR> c. What is the present
disposition of this equipment? </SPAN></P></DIV>
<P><SPAN>Its in the recoverable bone yard. I should have shown it to
Crispin when he was here.....or perhaps not:)
<BR><BR>Alex<BR><BR></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN><BR>Nice work<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P><SPAN> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
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</SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
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</SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN>__._,_.___ </SPAN></P></DIV>
<TABLE>
<TBODY>
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