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Hallo all,<br>
<br>
this is a question I have asked quite often, but perhaps never on
the list .<br>
<br>
Whenever I read about the benefits of biochar, it is almost always
in relation with distinctively acid soils.<br>
<br>
Does anyone know the effect of biochar, itself beeing mostly basic,
on already basic soils ?<br>
<br>
Rolf<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 13.12.2012 05:10, schrieb Kevin:
<blockquote
cite="mid:FD6831F4C6CE46F6BAF9782771243268@usera594fda0bf"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div> Dear Tom </div>
<blockquote>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="tmiles@trmiles.com" href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">Tom
Miles</a> </div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="rongretlarson@comcast.net"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves'</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 12, 2012 2:18 AM</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] [biochar-policy] Re: Equipment
required for testingstoves</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Charcoal burns in direct contact with air well above
600 C so any fire at the charcoal stage would be above
500-600C. </span></p>
<p><span></span> </p>
<p><span># There are two issues here:</span></p>
<p><span>1: The temperature at which charcoal burns</span></p>
<p><span>2: The average temperature experienced by the
charcoal remaining after it was produced.</span></p>
<p><span>Certainly, charcoal can burn at temperatures well
above 600C in air. Surface temperatures of burning char
can be very different than the core temperature. Consider
a flash fire, with high surface temperatures for a short
time. Core temperatures of the wood or char remaining can
be very much lower. This is a very complex heat transfer
problem... unsteady state three dimensional heat transfer
to bodies of irregular shape, with change in phase. What
is important is the properties of the "unburned charcoal"
remaining for potential use as biochar.</span></p>
<p><span></span> </p>
<p><span> Higher temperature oxidized chars have great
adsorption properties. They compost readily. Great way to
make terra preta. </span></p>
<p><span></span> </p>
<p><span># Certainly, such "designer chars" could have very
superior properties, but at greater cost. The "bottom
line" for the Farmer or Grower is the "Benefit/Cost
Ratio." Additionally, there may be special soil conditions
that such "designer chars" can handle better than "regular
biochar" that works adequately well for most common soil
conditions.</span></p>
<p><span></span> </p>
<p><span>Best wishes,</span></p>
<p><span></span> </p>
<p><span>Kevin</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>Tom </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><b><span>From:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Kevin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>;
Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; biochar-policy<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alex English; Tom Miles<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [biochar-policy] Re: [Stoves]
Equipment required for testing stoves </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p><span>Dear Ron</span> </p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span>----- Original Message ----- </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>From:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="rongretlarson@comcast.net"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>To:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>Cc:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="english@kingston.net"
href="mailto:english@kingston.net">Alex
English</a> ; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin
Chisholm</a> ; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="tmiles@trmiles.com"
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">Tom Miles</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>Sent:</span></b><span> Tuesday, December
11, 2012 2:09 AM </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>Subject:</span></b><span> Re: [Stoves]
Equipment required for testing stoves </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Lists (adding biochar-policy also), Kevin,
Alex, Tom (who I add, because he speaks
Portuguese and might have caught an answer when
we were in Manaus a few years ago)<br>
<br>
See below </span></p>
<div><span> </span></div>
<p><b><span>From: </span></b><span>"Kevin" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>,
"Alex English" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, December 10, 2012 8:24:34
PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Equipment required
for testing stoves<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<div>
<p><span>Dear Ron </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Would you agree that the Amazonians made
Terra Preta with low temperature char? <br>
<b>[RWL1: I think others may have an
answer - maybe based on spectroscopy. I
will start looking but don't know that field
well enough to know what others may have
concluded about these ancient soils. I fear
that 500 years (minimum) in soil may hide
the initial character that we can readily
see in a University setting. I know from
being in several Amazonian biochar "pits"
that it is pretty hard to find a piece big
enough to test. I think it entirely
possible that char left over from simple
three-stone fires could have been made at
500-600 C (or higher). Would you call those
temperatures high or low?] </b> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span># KC1: Obviously, I am speculating,
but I would speculate that Terra Preta was
made with charcoal from a number of sources:</span></b><span>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span>1: Char residue remaining after
charring or burning of "wood waste from
initial jungle clearing.</span></strong><span>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span>2: Char residue remaining from
charring or burning of agricultural waste
and weeds</span></strong><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span>3: Char and ash residue from
cooking fires and possibly smudge pots</span></strong><span>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span>4: Organic fertilizer
supplements, from humanure, composted food
scraps, and probably dredgings from oxbow
lakes.</span></strong><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span>I would consider 500-600 C to be
a "low temperature char." I haven't seen any
references to the existence of bellows
technology in ancient Amazonia, that would
be necessary to produce significantly higher
temperatures.</span></strong><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span>It is likely that the Amazonian
Terrapretians would have quickly noticed if
such low temperature char additions to their
agricultural practises were causing poor
results. If that was the case, they likely
would have taken steps to avoid application
of char to fields. They would be looking for
short term benefits or harm. Given that they
used char on a widespread basis, and that it
was basically low temperature char, it would
thus seem that Terra Preta worked with low
temperature char, and it worked relatively
quickly, not requiring an aging period of
several years.</span></strong><span> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span><br>
<br>
<br>
If so, are there any test results to show that
an "intermediate temperature char" would give
better results than the "low temperature char?"<br>
<b>[RWL2: I think that people like Dr.
Johannes Lehmann and Evelyn Krull may be
getting to an answer for some specific soil
and species. I keep looking for it.<br>
My note below to Alex was to make it
easier for users to know what is being used
Some of my favorite biochar scientists like
Drs. Julie Major and Christoph Steiner were
forced to use char bought off the side of a
remote Amazonian road. <br>
I haven't seen any data emphasizing
tests with a range of temperatures. Drs.
Stephen Joseph (low) and Hugh McLaughlin
(high) recommend different temperature
regimes.] </b> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>#KC2: Is it perhaps likely that "basic
low temperature biochar" is good for general
agricultural applications, but that
intermediate and high temperature chars may be
better for addressing special agricultural
problems. </span></b><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>I seem to recall that "high temperature
char" and/or "activated char" gives inferior
results in a biochar application. <br>
<b>[RWL3: How about giving a cite for
that?] </b> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>#KC3: Unfortunately, I cannot point to a
specific cite.</span></b><span><br>
<br>
Does this impression make sense to you? <br>
<b>[RWL4: No - certainly not as a
universal truth/] </b> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>#KC4: Universal truths are scarce and
hard to find. :-) If you put yourself in the
circumstances of an Amazonian Terrapretian of
3,000 years ago, what would you do
differently?</span></b><span><br>
<br>
If so, is there a "preferred char making
temperature range"? <br>
<b>[RWL5: I am sure that it depends a lot
on the intended recipient soil - and probably
on the plant species. #KC5:1 Certainly!
Jungle woods can vary in density from balsa at
about 10 lb/cubic foot, to Lignum Vitae, at
about 68 pounds per cubic foot.</b> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>My focus in this exchange below with
Alex is to give soil researchers and stove
users a better idea of even getting close to
knowing what char-T they are using. </span></b><span>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>#KC5:2 Char making temperature is easy
to determine. It should thus be very easy to
determine the importance, or lack thereof, of
char making temperature. It would be very good
to know this, to reduce variables in a test
analysis.</span></b><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span> There is a good bit of information out
there relating pH to production temperature -
but pH also depends on fuel size and ash
content and pH changes over time. Who knows
what else leads to a "preference"? <br>
And we also hear from Dr. Spokas that
what happens after char production is maybe as
much or more important. I think it is
absolutely amazing that we hear so many good
reports (and few bad reports) when we know so
little even about the char-production
temperature - and even the wood species, etc,
etc, etc. Ron] </span></b><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>#KC: With that many "good reports" and
so few "bad reports", and with so many char
variables, this would tend to downplay the
importance of char variables. The "bad
reports", presuming that they were competently
done, could provide very important insights
into what works, and what doesn't.</span></b><span>
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span>Best wishes,</span><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Kevin</span><span> </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Best wishes, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Kevin </span></p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span>----- Original Message ----- </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>From:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="rongretlarson@comcast.net"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>To:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="english@kingston.net"
href="mailto:english@kingston.net">Alex
English</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>Cc:</span></b><span> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>Sent:</span></b><span> Monday,
December 10, 2012 9:46 PM </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>Subject:</span></b><span> Re: [Stoves]
Equipment required for testing stoves </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Alex:<br>
<br>
Thanks:<br>
<br>
I see only a few remaining questions related
to the thermocouples. My interest is only in
being able to report to the soil scientists
the temperature at which the char was
produced.<br>
<br>
Q1. I think we should be able to say that
a time average of a central thermocouple
measurement showing a slight drop over time of
the highest numbers is a pretty good estimate
- that could be reproduced for "any" similar
"flaming pyrolysis" approacd. The properties
(pH, surface areas, labile component, etc) of
such char should be compared (a Master's
thesis?) with char produced via other means.
I think Nat Mulcahy's non-flaming pyrolysis
approach can produce varying temperature
char. An all-electric heating approach in any
oxygen-free environment , operated at
different temperature should also be used to
compare the char properties with those from
stoves. Maybe that data is already out
there?? <br>
<br>
Q2. I think there could be some influence
of the initial fuel moisture content. Do you
(anyone) have an opinion on that? I am
trying to avoid having to always measure
temperatures, but still be able to give an
indication of the "likely" char temperature,
by knowing how long a specific volume or
weight of fuel lasted.<br>
<br>
Q3. I wonder if the char temperature as
measured by a thermocouple system like yours
would also be a function of the fuel itself
(species, characteristic size, shape, etc.)<br>
<br>
Q4. I am pretty sure that the top and
bottom char will be significantly different in
a typical cooking cycle, where a very high
flame temperature is desired at first
(affecting only the top part of the fuel
load), and then a much lower temperature
desired later (affecting only the lowest
portion of the fuel load). My question, for
anyone, is whether an average temperature is
at all valuable, if the average (obtained from
the total duration of the pyrolysis) covered a
wide range of production temperatures.
Actually I have heard so many different
opinions on the best production temperature -
maybe a mixture of char temperatures might be
an advantage. Thoughts?<br>
<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<div><span> </span></div>
<p><b><span>From: </span></b><span>"Alex English"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a>><br>
<b>To: </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>,
"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, December 10, 2012
4:38:56 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Equipment
required for testing stoves </span></p>
<div>
<p><span>Ron,<br>
<br>
On 09/12/2012 8:33 PM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>
wrote: </span></p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span>Alex etal<br>
<br>
Thanks for the cite. I think I
understand most of the plot - which was of
amazing duration!. I am especially
amazed at how uniform (and high) the flame
temperature was in the late time plot,
even as the other plots were dropping. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><span>It is a very steady gas producer.
Conditions are constant except for the
distance and path composition between the
pyrolysis front and the burner. If it can be
done over 100cm then why not 200 or 300.<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<div>
<p><span> a. Since you have this one from
2000, you probably have quite a few more -
from which I/we might extract a good bit
more information/ Any other similar plots
around that you can post? </span></p>
</div>
<p><span>No I don't.<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<div>
<p><span><br>
b. I am surprised that the "pyrolysis
gas temperature" was so much lower than the
temperature of the char. Where was the probe
for this measurement - and had there been
some mixing of secondary air at this point?
</span></p>
</div>
<p><span>No mixing of secondary air at that point.
That occurs in and above in a 5cm burner
mixing pipe. The tmperature difference is
largely due to the nature of unshielded
thermocouples in gas.For the most part
thermocouples radiate away heat according to
the temperatures of the surfaces that make up
the sphere around them. A thermocouple buried
in the pellets that are all carbonizing at
700C will give a fairly accurate measurement.
A thermocouple in the gas above the top of the
pellet bed will radiate to the pellet bed and,
in this case the uninsulated container walls.
The more that pellet bed shrinks the larger
the portion of the radiant sphere that is the
cool container walls. The larger the
thermocouple, the greater the radiant cooling
, the lower the measurement. The higher the
temperature the greater the radiant loss, to
the forth power. All the gas is also radiating
and convecting heat to the container walls. So
there are two reasons for a slow drop in gas
temperature, and one reason for not trusting
either. The same holds true for the absolute
value of post combustion measurement. <br>
<br>
There are </span><span>gas-</span><em><span>aspirated
pyrometers which shield a thermocouple with
ceramic layers that approach gas
temperatures and give better numbers. We
will soon be using an 10 footer to probe the
chain grate stoker gasses in carbonizer-
pyrolysis-gasifier mode.</span></em><span><br>
<br>
<em><span>Grate fun.</span></em><br>
<br>
</span><span> </span></p>
<div>
<p><span><br>
c. What is the present disposition of
this equipment? </span></p>
</div>
<p><span>Its in the recoverable bone yard. I
should have shown it to Crispin when he was
here.....or perhaps not:) <br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<div>
<p><span><br>
Nice work<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div><span> </span></div>
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<p><span>__._,_.___ </span></p>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
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