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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A>
; <A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
; <A title=biochar-production@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</A>
; <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin
Chisholm</A> ; <A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 18, 2013 6:34
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin,
Crispin and list:<BR><BR> This is to also answer the two following
messages from yourselves. I did not find them helpful - as they assume
the only economics relate to the carbon credit. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=4># Exactly!! The question was about the cost of carbon credits. That was
the purpose of the question... to get some insight into the cost of Carbon
Credits.</FONT> <FONT size=4>It was you, in your 16 Jan posting, who
introduced the Carbon Credit sub-thread.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> They
assume nothing (repeat nothing) about the value to the user in outyear ag
benefits. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=4># EXACTLY!! They assume nothing beyond the question. However, it is an
attempt to start somewhere and determine if there is any chance that Carbon
Credits will be helpful in encouraging the use of TLUD or other char making
stoves, and if the carbon credits will influence people to use biochar. As I
see it now, the value of carbon credits, at the very best is trivial, but in
reality, is insignificant. The Carbon Credits seem to sell for about $6 per
tonne CO2 equivalent (trivial) but after the middlemen, brokers and field
inspectors and speculators make their money, there would be an insignificant
payment per tonne CO2 equivalent actually reaching the Farmer (ie, the Golden
Goose who is supposed to lay the eggs that
hatch into carbon credits :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> Tell me
how farmers in the world will react to news that (for example) land worth zero
today can be brought up to a productivity level the same as other existing ag
land nearby (same rainfall etc.) Let's say that land can, after
applying biochar be worth $500/ha rather than $0/ha. If those
farmers have a discount rate of 5% or 50% will make a big difference on how
much they will be willing to spend per tonne of biochar and how many tonnes
per ha (which could be in rows or holes - not uniformly scattered).
Which discount rate are you using for these out-year benefit
computations? <BR> You can't prove biochar is
worthless by talking to this list only about credits of $6/tonne CO2.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=4># I am not trying to prove that biochar is worthless. I was simply
trying to find out what Carbon Credits were worth. Thanks to Crispin, I found
out. Those interested in determining the worth of biochar can apply whatever
evaluation concepts are important to them. Large multinational agribusiness
corporations with Accountants and MBA on their Staff will look at
discount rates and IRR's, while the small Farmer will probably say "If I spend
$100 on biochar, how long before I will get my money
back?" </FONT><BR><BR>More below.<BR><FONT size=4># Yes, indeed!!
:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR id=zwchr>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>From:
</B>"Kevin" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><BR><B>To:
</B>rongretlarson@comcast.net, biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com,
stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org,
biochar-production@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Sent: </B>Thursday, January 17, 2013
10:29:17 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black
Carbon<BR><BR>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
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dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target=_blank>Kevin Chisholm</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:16
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin and
list: See below<BR><BR>
<HR id=zwchr>
<B>From: </B>"Kevin" <<A href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR><B>To: </B>"Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves" <<A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:34:01 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves]
New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>You mention $16 and $27 per tonne CO2 equivalent. I
presume you are referring to a payment that one would receive when showing
that one has earned a tonne of CO2 equivalent.<BR>
<B>[RWL: Yup - examples only - hopefully
larger.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4># Prices seem to vary all
over the place to purchase carbon credits. What is the present price that a
biochar producer could expect to receive as a carbon Credit for the biochar
he produced? It is one thing to hope for future price increases for Carbon
Credits, but is that realistic? Would you perhaps have a graph that shows
the price trend for CarbonCrdits that you could share with the
Lists?</FONT></EM></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
id=DWT441> </DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
[RWL2a: See my opening remarks. The price trend for credits
has nothing to do with anything under discussion - especially about
black carbon.]</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2a: I am not talking about Black Carbon.
I am simply talking about the value to the Farmer of carbon Credits. You feel
that CC prices will increase... I was trying to see if you had any rational
basis for stating that you hope the price of CC's will increase. A graph
showing an "uptrend" from a low price would suggest further CC increases, and
would certainly suggest that your hope had a rational basis.</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
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<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
id=DWT440> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>1: Where would one apply to get such payments?
<B>[RWL: Anywhere one can. Numerous stove promoters on this list
already getting some.]</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><EM><FONT
id=DWT442 size=4># OK!! Can you tell the Stoves and Biochar Lists where they
could apply to get Carbon Credit payments for the biochar they
produce?</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2b: I am not in that business. If I were them I probably
would keep that answer to myself - but feel free to ask stove sellers
(which are maybe only for displaced CO2 - not
char.]</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2b: You quoted prices, and "hoped for
prices" for CC's. I know you are not in that business. However, you make
frequent reference and allusion to the potential for CC's to support the use
of biochar. You should not offer such encouragement unless you are able to
point to sources where biochar users can actually apply for such credits. As a
strong promoter of CC's as being a support to the widespread introduction of
biochar, you should be telling the List where they can go to get CC support
for their proposed biochar projects, rather than keeping such information
secret. Now you introduce the bombshell that maybe CC's will not be available
to char!!</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
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<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>2: Who would be eligible to receive such payments?
<B>[RWL: Anyone who can prove they deserve
them.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><FONT size=4><EM># That makes
sense.</EM></FONT> </STRONG>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>3: What conditions must be met, before the payments would
actually be made? <B>[RWL: Whatever is acceptable to the
presumably willing buyer of the credits.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT443 size=4># That does not
make sense at all! Surely there must be some rules or standards that must be
met to ensure that the Carbon Credits are real. If not, then the entire
system is open to fraud.</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2c: I have made no comments about an open market - and those
don't yet exist. Of course, when we have organized markets accepting
char as a vehicle, there will then be stringent rules. IBI and others
are developing them now. The point in this dialog (referring back
to $16 and $11) is that biochar from stoves can have a higher value (because
of black carbon improvements) than biochar from some other sources.]</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2c1: If there is no open market for Carbon Credits now, then the only "sure
thing" for stove and biochar interests to focus on is making better stoves
that rise on their own merits, and to show Farmers how they can make more
money with biochar, rather than counting on something that may, or may not,
be real in the future (CC's) to make stoves and biochar
economic. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2c2 Note that it is not the biochar from stoves that yields black
carbon improvements, but stove design and operation. Crispin has
designed and developed stoves with excellent combustion characteristics that
have remarkably low BC emissions, and they do not produce biochar. Black
Carbon is controlled by good combustion, not by the production of biochar.
Black Carbon, biochar production and Carbon Credits are three very different
and separate and distinct issues.</STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>I am concerned that with the state of the World Economy,
Governments will lose their interest in longer term Climate Change Concerns,
and would put their priorities on addressing short term and more immediate
concerns. <B>[RWL: We disagree.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT444 size=4># What is your
basis for disagreement? Kyoto seems to be dead in the water. At the last
meeting, I believe that most Governments said "We will do something about
controlling CO2 emissions sometime after 2020, but we will not say what we
will do, and when we will do it." Is this a reasonable summation? If you
feel not, what would you feel
is?</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2d: I am more of an optimist than you. Arctic
ice totally disappearing in a year or two could be the wake-up
call. <BR>No yours is not a reasonable summation from my
perspective. A lot of people are working to promote a
meaningful price, And we don't need all governments to
agree; I have hopes for a number of EU countries. And you didn't
do more than repeat an opinion- which happens to differ from mine.
Obviously I can't give proof of anything happening in the next few years - and
that is why we should agree to disagree.</B>]</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2d</STRONG>:<STRONG> I am not looking for either optimism or pessimism, but
rather, the simple reality of the matter. Total disappearance of Arctic
Ice in a year or two is a gross exaggeration. Do you know how cold it gets up
there over teh winter? :-) The Governments of the world have already had their
wake-up call with respect to increased open water in the Arctic Summer, and
they appear to have decided to do little or nothing about it until sometime
after 2020. You flatly state that my summation is not reasonable, but you
refuse to be helpful by providing a summation which you feel is reasonable. Of
course, we do not need all Governments to agree to support Kyoto... just
enough to make a difference. Without the US, Canada and China, it is hard for
the others to make a significant difference. My summation of Kyoto is not
an "opinion"... it is a statement of observed facts.</STRONG><STRONG> I
strongly disagree with your proposal that "... we should agree to
disagree..." I would propose that we seek to determine the reality of the
situation. <BR></STRONG></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>What are your views on the future of Carbon Credit
payments? <B>[RWL: They will slowly creep up in price
(maybe in time to do some good). Biochar credits from
char-making stoves look like the easiest to sell of
any.</B></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial><B></B></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT445 size=4># The recent report
on the important impact of Black Carbon on climate change would seem to
reduce the relative importance of the CO2 parameter. As I understand it,
most "generally accepted Climate Change Models" were calibrated under the
assumption that BC was a minor or insignificant factor, and the model
factors were adjusted to relate observed temperature rise to anthropogenic
CO2. Now that BC could have a "forcing effect" perhaps 2/3 as great as
the present forcing effect attributed to CO2, recalibrating the models
to reflect the increased importance of BC will inherently diminish the
importance of CO2 as a factor in CAGW (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global
Warming). Accordingly, it would seem reasonable to project a
significant decline in "Carbon Credit Revenue" to biochar producers. Does
this seem reasonable? If not, why
not?</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2e: Re sentence #1: Tami Bond, in the quoted article
(which this started out to be about) put major emphasis on CO2.</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>#KC2e1:
And well she might! The fundamental thrust of the Report was to show that BC
was a significant factor in GW or Climate Change. She (and her co-Authors)
certainly do this. They were not investing the importance of CO2... they were
investigating the importance of BC, and they simply acced what the IPCC said
about CO2 importance.</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> Re
your second sentence, all the models lump effects together under
CO2e, not simply CO2. </B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>#KC2e2:
This is where Tami's work can have a very disturbing effect on Climate Change
Modeling. Very disturbing. It throws a huge monkey wrench into the works. More
specifically, since the effects that were all lumped together as CO2e (ie, CO2
equivalent), without giving proper weight to the importance of BC, then all
such modelling will have to be "re-visited", to include the effects of BC.
More specifically still, all such models were "trained" without significant
recognition of the importance of BC, and various factors were developed to
make the models fit the observations. BC, as "the new kid on the Climate
Change Modeling BBlock", is a real "game changer." The BC data presently has a
large degree of uncertainty... when further research reduces present
uncertainty, instead of being merely "the New Kid on the Block", BC might
actually be "The Elephant in the Room." Also of possibly great significance is
the potential that this BC work may lend significant support to the Svendmark
Hypothesis. See: <A
href="http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis">http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis</A>
</B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>and <A
href="http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/">http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/</A> for
further elaboration.</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>Re the
last "reasonable" - You have it all wrong. I presume because you are
still a climate denier and are looking for every way possible to make your
denier view seem more reasonable.</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2e3: Rather than playing "The Denier
card", I would suggest that you could advance your position more if you
provided palpable fact that showed where my views
are wrong.</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT446 size=4># Concerning carbon
credits for biochar from char-making stoves, would you have an approximate
idea of the value of the carbon credits per tonne for such biochar? Would
you have an approximate idea of the annual tonnage of biochar that is sold
in connection with a carbon credit
payment.</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
[RWL2f: Re #1, See my opening remarks. To repeat
- there is no single value appropriate to all buyers and sellers of
credits. </B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B># KC2f1:
Of course not!! </B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>1:
There is the price that the "End User"</STRONG> <STRONG>pays "The
Retailer" for Carbon Credits</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>2:
There is the price that "The Retailer" buys the CC's from the "manufacturer or
generator or producer of CC's"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>3:
There is the "net price" that the producer of CC's receives, after deduction
of required inspection, testing, and approval costs.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>In
addition, there are are probably "volume discounts" the reflect the cost of
conducting the transaction. Clearly, the unit cost of carbon credits to
offset a single trip in an airplane will be greater than the unit cost of a
large CC purchase by a coal fired power plant.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> This
is a voluntary market - not a tax. If we were talking a subsidy, I
think $100/tonne char ($35/tonne CO2) would make a huge difference - and
is totally justified on strictly moral/ethical grounds (thinking of all
our obligations to our children and grand-children and to developing
countries. </B><B> The US will benefit a lot more from paying such a
subsidy</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B># KC2f2:
Given the state of the US Economy, such a subsidy is very unlikely. The US is
already more than $44 billion over its permissable debt ceiling. See: <A
href="http://www.usdebtclock.org/">http://www.usdebtclock.org/</A></B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> - as
the economy will suffer much worse from ocean rise, varied rainfall, size of
storms, etc.</B><B><BR></DIV></B>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B># KC2f3:
The US Agricultural Economy suffered seriously from drought last year, and is
likely to suffer greatly during this coming crop year. See: <A
href="http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202">http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202</A></B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>Are
you saying that CarbonCredits, (and greatly increased use of biochar)
could reverse this drought situation and bring things back to "normal"? If the
US had been using biochar in the 1920's, could this have prevented the "Dust
Bowl of the 1930's"?</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> </B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
Re #2 sentence - I have no idea and doubt anyone does. I do hear
people saying that char is in short supply. Such data will be partly
available with an open market.</B> <BR></DIV><STRONG></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2f4: Is it possible that char is in short supply simply because there is
insufficient information to justify its widespread use, and potential
producers are (sensibly) cautious about getting into production because of
lack of evidence of an adequate market? Or, perhaps the biochar producers are
selling most oftheir biochar into "niche markets", where they can get more for
it, than the "Farm level" potential Customer can afford to
pay? </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
Your whole line of questioning has nothing to do with BC from stoves and
whether BC should be an important reason for near term action to promote
cleaner char-making stoves.</STRONG>] </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2f5: No. My entire line of questioning was around the cost of carbon
credits. Remember, of course, that it was you who introduced Carbon Credits
into this thread.<BR></DIV></STRONG>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT447 size=4># As we all
know, "adequate carbon credit payments" could lead to a huge increase
in biochar production and use. However, if it is unreasonable to believe
that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon, then stoves
and biochar must rise on their own inherent merits, without such support.
Holding onto a false hope can only result in
disappointment.</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2g: Re #1 - We agree. The reason that
this is not happening is that too many do not see the ethics and morality of
moving faster (on this I presume we disagree)</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2g1: Another, more likely, explanation is
that the direct economics of biochar are not apparent to the
Farmer.<BR></FONT>
Re#2 - Agree with last part of sentence - and not with the first
on timing.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2g2: Perhaps you are right. If you have a rational basis for your
belief that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon, please
share with the List. That "good news" could very well precipitate a
rush into biochar.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><STRONG>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Re #3 - Disagree. Assuming failure,
as you seem to be doing, is a self-fulfilling prophecy - to stop all progress
and accept ocean rise, etc with costs much greater than the costs of
credits.
Ron]<BR></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2g3: I do not assume failure... all I warn of is that if "adequate CC
payments will not be available, then biochar, and stove systems that depended
on them for their financial success, will have to find another justification
to assure viability. "</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2g4: I remind you that it is totally impossible for CC's to prevent ocean
rise. Totally, absolutely, and utterly impossible.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Best
wishes,</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4>Best
wishes,</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4>Kevin</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><STRONG>Ron]</STRONG><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Thanks very much.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 16, 2013
11:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dean and
list:<BR><BR> Tami's is one huge report (232 pages
in a major journal sounds like a world record). I spent quite a few
hours today trying to grasp the topic - and know now I had better give
up. The Black Carbon problem is going to take experts like Tami to
bring its importance into the world of stoves. There may be an
argument that if a stove can prove $16/.tonne CO2, you might have a
chance at proving up to (or even more than?) $27/tonne CO2e, if you are in
the right place on the globe. (These numbers based on numbers given
in terms of W/sqm.) I recommend casual readers getting
quickly to the figures at the extreme end of the report/paper. There
is a lot of useful numercal geographic and sources comparisons
there.<BR><BR> As Crispin has indicated the intentional
large scale annual burning of large parts of Africa look like a good place
to instead harvest and get useful energy and biiochar instead (through
stoves and more).<BR><BR> Congratulations on arranging
to have Tami be the ETHOS key-noter. I think she may have been
at the first!<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR>
<HR id=zwchr>
<B>From: </B>"Dean Still" <deankstill@gmail.com><BR><B>To:
</B>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR><B>Sent: </B>Wednesday, January
16, 2013 2:05:27 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon<BR><BR>Dear Friends,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Tami is the keynote speaker at ETHOS this year and it will be
interesting to hear what she's been learning!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>All Best,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dean<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
target=_blank>crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dear Friends<U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>A new and I would say major major paper on the
atmospheric impact of black carbon particles is available for download.
We know at least two of the authors here on ‘Stoves’. Profs Tami Bond
and Philip Hopke (the aethalometer builder who said he was a minor
contributor) are frequent contributors on the subject of emissions
testing.<U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The paper is important because it is the first really
detailed examination of the effects of atmospheric heating by Black
Carbon (BC). <U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The abstract is at <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract</SPAN></A>
and the paper is at <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf</SPAN></A><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">It is not
behind a paywall but it is large (40 MB). Times to get your hands dirty
with BC!<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Regards<SPAN
class=HOEnZb><FONT
color=#888888><U></U><U></U></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P><SPAN
class=HOEnZb><FONT color=#888888>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Crispin<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P
class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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