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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Dean</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Could you please confirm if the $15 carbon credit is per
ton of CO2 avoided, OR if it is per ton of C avoided.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Also, could you please elaborate a bit on the difference
between the "Involuntary" and the "Voluntary" market? Am I correct in assuming
that the "involuntary" market happens when there is legislation in place
requiring CO2 emitters to purchase Carbon Credits, while the "Voluntary" market
happens when people (such as Air Travellers) voluntarily purchase carbon
credits?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thanks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=deankstill@gmail.com href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">Dean
Still</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=biochar-production@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</A>
; <A title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:26
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi All,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The involuntary market can pay higher amounts per ton of avoided carbon.
A stove project I admire in Central America just sold credits at around $15
per ton. When saving tons per year the earnings are meaningful and provide a
support for the endeavor.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dean</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Kevin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target=_blank>Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
target=_blank>biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A> ; <A
title=biochar-production@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com"
target=_blank>biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A
title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>Kevin Chisholm</A> ; <A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target=_blank>Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 18, 2013 6:34
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin, Crispin and
list:<BR><BR> This is to also answer the two following
messages from yourselves. I did not find them helpful - as they
assume the only economics relate to the carbon credit. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=4># Exactly!!
The question was about the cost of carbon credits. That was the purpose of
the question... to get some insight into the cost of Carbon
Credits.</FONT> <FONT size=4>It was you, in your 16 Jan posting, who
introduced the Carbon Credit sub-thread.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> They assume nothing
(repeat nothing) about the value to the user in outyear ag
benefits. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=4># EXACTLY!!
They assume nothing beyond the question. However, it is an attempt to
start somewhere and determine if there is any chance that Carbon Credits
will be helpful in encouraging the use of TLUD or other char making
stoves, and if the carbon credits will influence people to use biochar. As
I see it now, the value of carbon credits, at the very best is trivial,
but in reality, is insignificant. The Carbon Credits seem to sell for
about $6 per tonne CO2 equivalent (trivial) but after the middlemen,
brokers and field inspectors and speculators make their money, there would
be an insignificant payment per tonne CO2 equivalent actually reaching the
Farmer (ie, the Golden Goose who is supposed to lay the eggs
that hatch into carbon credits :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> Tell me how farmers
in the world will react to news that (for example) land worth zero today
can be brought up to a productivity level the same as other existing ag
land nearby (same rainfall etc.) Let's say that land can,
after applying biochar be worth $500/ha rather than $0/ha. If
those farmers have a discount rate of 5% or 50% will make a big difference
on how much they will be willing to spend per tonne of biochar and how
many tonnes per ha (which could be in rows or holes - not uniformly
scattered). Which discount rate are you using for these out-year
benefit computations? <BR> You can't prove biochar
is worthless by talking to this list only about credits of $6/tonne
CO2.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=4># I am not
trying to prove that biochar is worthless. I was simply trying to find out
what Carbon Credits were worth. Thanks to Crispin, I found out. Those
interested in determining the worth of biochar can apply whatever
evaluation concepts are important to them. Large multinational
agribusiness corporations with Accountants and MBA on their Staff
will look at discount rates and IRR's, while the small Farmer will
probably say "If I spend $100 on biochar, how long before I will get my
money back?" </FONT><BR><BR>More below.<BR><FONT size=4># Yes,
indeed!! :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>From: </B>"Kevin"
<<A href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR><B>To: </B><A
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>, <A
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
target=_blank>biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A>, <A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>, <A
href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com"
target=_blank>biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</A><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:29:17 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves]
New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial>Dear
Ron</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target=_blank>Kevin Chisholm</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 17, 2013
12:16 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin and
list: See below<BR><BR>
<HR>
<B>From: </B>"Kevin" <<A href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR><B>To: </B>"Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:34:01 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re:
[Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<BR><BR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>You mention $16 and $27 per tonne CO2 equivalent.
I presume you are referring to a payment that one would receive when
showing that one has earned a tonne of CO2
equivalent.<BR> <B>[RWL: Yup - examples
only - hopefully larger.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4># Prices seem to vary
all over the place to purchase carbon credits. What is the present price
that a biochar producer could expect to receive as a carbon Credit for
the biochar he produced? It is one thing to hope for future price
increases for Carbon Credits, but is that realistic? Would you perhaps
have a graph that shows the price trend for CarbonCrdits that you could
share with the Lists?</FONT></EM></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
[RWL2a: See my opening remarks. The price trend for
credits has nothing to do with anything under discussion -
especially about black carbon.]</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2a: I am not talking about Black
Carbon. I am simply talking about the value to the Farmer of carbon
Credits. You feel that CC prices will increase... I was trying to see if
you had any rational basis for stating that you hope the price of CC's
will increase. A graph showing an "uptrend" from a low price would suggest
further CC increases, and would certainly suggest that your hope had a
rational basis.</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial>1:
Where would one apply to get such payments? <B>[RWL:
Anywhere one can. Numerous stove promoters on this list already
getting some.]</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4># OK!! Can you tell the Stoves and Biochar Lists where they could
apply to get Carbon Credit payments for the biochar they
produce?</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2b: I am not in that business. If I were them I
probably would keep that answer to myself - but feel free to ask stove
sellers (which are maybe only for displaced CO2 - not
char.]</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2b: You quoted prices, and "hoped for
prices" for CC's. I know you are not in that business. However, you make
frequent reference and allusion to the potential for CC's to support the
use of biochar. You should not offer such encouragement unless you are
able to point to sources where biochar users can actually apply for such
credits. As a strong promoter of CC's as being a support to the widespread
introduction of biochar, you should be telling the List where they can go
to get CC support for their proposed biochar projects, rather than keeping
such information secret. Now you introduce the bombshell that maybe CC's
will not be available to char!!</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial>2: Who
would be eligible to receive such payments?
<B>[RWL: Anyone who can prove they deserve
them.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><FONT size=4><EM># That makes
sense.</EM></FONT> </STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial>3:
What conditions must be met, before the payments would actually be
made? <B>[RWL: Whatever is acceptable to the
presumably willing buyer of the credits.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4># That does not make
sense at all! Surely there must be some rules or standards that must be
met to ensure that the Carbon Credits are real. If not, then the entire
system is open to fraud.</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2c: I have made no comments about an open market - and those
don't yet exist. Of course, when we have organized markets accepting
char as a vehicle, there will then be stringent rules. IBI and
others are developing them now. The point in this dialog
(referring back to $16 and $11) is that biochar from stoves can have a
higher value (because of black carbon improvements) than biochar from some
other sources.]</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># KC2c1: If there
is no open market for Carbon Credits now, then the only "sure thing" for
stove and biochar interests to focus on is making better stoves that rise
on their own merits, and to show Farmers how they can make more money with
biochar, rather than counting on something that may, or may not, be
real in the future (CC's) to make stoves and biochar
economic. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># KC2c2 Note
that it is not the biochar from stoves that yields black carbon
improvements, but stove design and operation. Crispin has designed
and developed stoves with excellent combustion characteristics that have
remarkably low BC emissions, and they do not produce biochar. Black Carbon
is controlled by good combustion, not by the production of biochar. Black
Carbon, biochar production and Carbon Credits are three very different and
separate and distinct issues.</STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial>I am
concerned that with the state of the World Economy, Governments will
lose their interest in longer term Climate Change Concerns, and would
put their priorities on addressing short term and more immediate
concerns. <B>[RWL: We disagree.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4># What is your basis for
disagreement? Kyoto seems to be dead in the water. At the last meeting,
I believe that most Governments said "We will do something about
controlling CO2 emissions sometime after 2020, but we will not say what
we will do, and when we will do it." Is this a reasonable summation? If
you feel not, what would you feel
is?</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2d: I am more of an optimist than you.
Arctic ice totally disappearing in a year or two could be the wake-up
call. <BR>No yours is not a reasonable summation from my
perspective. A lot of people are working to promote a
meaningful price, And we don't need all governments to
agree; I have hopes for a number of EU countries. And you
didn't do more than repeat an opinion- which happens to differ from
mine. Obviously I can't give proof of anything happening in the next
few years - and that is why we should agree to disagree.</B>]</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2d</STRONG>:<STRONG> I am not looking for either optimism or pessimism,
but rather, the simple reality of the matter. Total disappearance
of Arctic Ice in a year or two is a gross exaggeration. Do you know
how cold it gets up there over teh winter? :-) The Governments of the
world have already had their wake-up call with respect to increased open
water in the Arctic Summer, and they appear to have decided to do little
or nothing about it until sometime after 2020. You flatly state that my
summation is not reasonable, but you refuse to be helpful by providing a
summation which you feel is reasonable. Of course, we do not need all
Governments to agree to support Kyoto... just enough to make a difference.
Without the US, Canada and China, it is hard for the others to make a
significant difference. My summation of Kyoto is not an "opinion"...
it is a statement of observed facts.</STRONG><STRONG> I strongly
disagree with your proposal that "... we should agree to disagree..."
I would propose that we seek to determine the reality of the situation.
<BR></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial>What
are your views on the future of Carbon Credit payments?
<B>[RWL: They will slowly creep up in price (maybe in time
to do some good). Biochar credits from char-making stoves
look like the easiest to sell of any.</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><B></B></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4># The recent report on
the important impact of Black Carbon on climate change would seem to
reduce the relative importance of the CO2 parameter. As I understand it,
most "generally accepted Climate Change Models" were calibrated under
the assumption that BC was a minor or insignificant factor, and the
model factors were adjusted to relate observed temperature rise to
anthropogenic CO2. Now that BC could have a "forcing effect"
perhaps 2/3 as great as the present forcing effect attributed to
CO2, recalibrating the models to reflect the increased importance
of BC will inherently diminish the importance of CO2 as a factor in CAGW
(Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming). Accordingly, it would
seem reasonable to project a significant decline in "Carbon Credit
Revenue" to biochar producers. Does this seem reasonable? If not, why
not?</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2e: Re sentence #1: Tami Bond, in the quoted
article (which this started out to be about) put major emphasis on
CO2.</B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>#KC2e1: And well she
might! The fundamental thrust of the Report was to show that BC was a
significant factor in GW or Climate Change. She (and her co-Authors)
certainly do this. They were not investing the importance of CO2... they
were investigating the importance of BC, and they simply acced what the
IPCC said about CO2 importance.</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> Re your second
sentence, all the models lump effects together under CO2e, not
simply CO2. </B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>#KC2e2: This is where
Tami's work can have a very disturbing effect on Climate Change Modeling.
Very disturbing. It throws a huge monkey wrench into the works. More
specifically, since the effects that were all lumped together as CO2e (ie,
CO2 equivalent), without giving proper weight to the importance of BC,
then all such modelling will have to be "re-visited", to include the
effects of BC. More specifically still, all such models were "trained"
without significant recognition of the importance of BC, and various
factors were developed to make the models fit the observations. BC, as
"the new kid on the Climate Change Modeling BBlock", is a real "game
changer." The BC data presently has a large degree of uncertainty... when
further research reduces present uncertainty, instead of being merely "the
New Kid on the Block", BC might actually be "The Elephant in the Room."
Also of possibly great significance is the potential that this BC work may
lend significant support to the Svendmark Hypothesis. See: <A
href="http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis"
target=_blank>http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis</A>
</B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>and <A
href="http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/"
target=_blank>http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/</A> for
further elaboration.</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>Re the last
"reasonable" - You have it all wrong. I presume because you are
still a climate denier and are looking for every way possible to make your
denier view seem more reasonable.</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2e3: Rather than playing "The Denier
card", I would suggest that you could advance your position more if you
provided palpable fact that showed where my views
are wrong.</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4># Concerning carbon
credits for biochar from char-making stoves, would you have an
approximate idea of the value of the carbon credits per tonne for such
biochar? Would you have an approximate idea of the annual tonnage of
biochar that is sold in connection with a carbon credit
payment.</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
[RWL2f: Re #1, See my opening remarks. To
repeat - there is no single value appropriate to all buyers and
sellers of credits. </B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B># KC2f1: Of course
not!! </B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>1: There
is the price that the "End User"</STRONG> <STRONG>pays "The
Retailer" for Carbon Credits</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>2: There is the
price that "The Retailer" buys the CC's from the "manufacturer or
generator or producer of CC's"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>3: There is the
"net price" that the producer of CC's receives, after deduction of
required inspection, testing, and approval costs.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>In addition,
there are are probably "volume discounts" the reflect the cost of
conducting the transaction. Clearly, the unit cost of carbon credits
to offset a single trip in an airplane will be greater than the unit cost
of a large CC purchase by a coal fired power plant.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> This is a
voluntary market - not a tax. If we were talking a subsidy, I
think $100/tonne char ($35/tonne CO2) would make a huge difference -
and is totally justified on strictly moral/ethical grounds (thinking
of all our obligations to our children and grand-children and to
developing countries. </B><B> The US will benefit a lot more
from paying such a subsidy</B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B># KC2f2: Given the
state of the US Economy, such a subsidy is very unlikely. The US is
already more than $44 billion over its permissable debt ceiling. See: <A
href="http://www.usdebtclock.org/"
target=_blank>http://www.usdebtclock.org/</A></B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> - as the economy
will suffer much worse from ocean rise, varied rainfall, size of storms,
etc.</B><B><BR></B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B># KC2f3: The US
Agricultural Economy suffered seriously from drought last year, and is
likely to suffer greatly during this coming crop year. See: <A
href="http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202"
target=_blank>http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202</A></B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>Are you saying
that CarbonCredits, (and greatly increased use of biochar) could reverse
this drought situation and bring things back to "normal"? If the US had
been using biochar in the 1920's, could this have prevented the "Dust Bowl
of the 1930's"?</B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> </B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
Re #2 sentence - I have no idea and doubt anyone does. I do
hear people saying that char is in short supply. Such data will be
partly available with an open market.</B>
<BR></DIV><STRONG></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># KC2f4: Is it
possible that char is in short supply simply because there is insufficient
information to justify its widespread use, and potential producers are
(sensibly) cautious about getting into production because of lack of
evidence of an adequate market? Or, perhaps the biochar producers are
selling most oftheir biochar into "niche markets", where they can get more
for it, than the "Farm level" potential Customer can afford to
pay? </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
Your whole line of questioning has nothing to do with BC from stoves and
whether BC should be an important reason for near term action to promote
cleaner char-making stoves.</STRONG>] </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># KC2f5: No. My
entire line of questioning was around the cost of carbon credits.
Remember, of course, that it was you who introduced Carbon Credits into
this thread.<BR></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4># As we all know,
"adequate carbon credit payments" could lead to a huge increase in
biochar production and use. However, if it is unreasonable to believe
that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon, then
stoves and biochar must rise on their own inherent merits, without such
support. Holding onto a false hope can only result in
disappointment.</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2g: Re #1 - We agree. The reason that
this is not happening is that too many do not see the ethics and morality
of moving faster (on this I presume we disagree)</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2g1: Another, more likely, explanation
is that the direct economics of biochar are not apparent to the
Farmer.<BR></FONT>
Re#2 - Agree with last part of sentence - and not with the
first on timing.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># KC2g2: Perhaps
you are right. If you have a rational basis for your belief that
"adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon, please share
with the List. That "good news" could very well precipitate a
rush into biochar.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><STRONG>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Re #3 - Disagree. Assuming
failure, as you seem to be doing, is a self-fulfilling prophecy - to stop
all progress and accept ocean rise, etc with costs much greater than the
costs of credits.
Ron]<BR></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># KC2g3: I do not
assume failure... all I warn of is that if "adequate CC payments will not
be available, then biochar, and stove systems that depended on them for
their financial success, will have to find another justification to assure
viability. "</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># KC2g4: I remind
you that it is totally impossible for CC's to prevent ocean rise. Totally,
absolutely, and utterly impossible.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Best wishes,</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4>Best
wishes,</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4>Kevin</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><STRONG>Ron]</STRONG><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial>Thanks
very much.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 16, 2013
11:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper
on atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dean and
list:<BR><BR> Tami's is one huge report (232
pages in a major journal sounds like a world record). I spent
quite a few hours today trying to grasp the topic - and know now I had
better give up. The Black Carbon problem is going to take
experts like Tami to bring its importance into the world of
stoves. There may be an argument that if a stove can prove
$16/.tonne CO2, you might have a chance at proving up to (or
even more than?) $27/tonne CO2e, if you are in the right place on the
globe. (These numbers based on numbers given in terms of
W/sqm.) I recommend casual readers getting quickly
to the figures at the extreme end of the report/paper. There is
a lot of useful numercal geographic and sources comparisons
there.<BR><BR> As Crispin has indicated the
intentional large scale annual burning of large parts of Africa look
like a good place to instead harvest and get useful energy and
biiochar instead (through stoves and more).<BR><BR>
Congratulations on arranging to have Tami be the ETHOS
key-noter. I think she may have been at the
first!<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR>
<HR>
<B>From: </B>"Dean Still" <<A href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com"
target=_blank>deankstill@gmail.com</A>><BR><B>To: </B>"Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:05:27 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re:
[Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<BR><BR>Dear Friends,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Tami is the keynote speaker at ETHOS this year and it will be
interesting to hear what she's been learning!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>All Best,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dean<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
target=_blank>crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dear Friends<U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>A new and I would say major major paper on the
atmospheric impact of black carbon particles is available for
download. We know at least two of the authors here on ‘Stoves’.
Profs Tami Bond and Philip Hopke (the aethalometer builder who said
he was a minor contributor) are frequent contributors on the subject
of emissions testing.<U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The paper is important because it is the first
really detailed examination of the effects of atmospheric heating by
Black Carbon (BC). <U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The abstract is at <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract</SPAN></A>
and the paper is at <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf</SPAN></A><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">It is not
behind a paywall but it is large (40 MB). Times to get your hands
dirty with BC!<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Regards<SPAN><FONT
color=#888888><U></U><U></U></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P><SPAN><FONT
color=#888888>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Crispin<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P
class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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