Hi Paul and Art,<div><br></div><div>Let's make a date at ETHOS to have a week long TLUD emissions testing seminar. TLUD designers can use the two hoods and the Test Kitchen to look at best solutions. We can write up the results. I'll supply the coffee.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Dean<br><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 5:51 AM, Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>Crispin and all,<br>
<br>
Good comments by Alex and Marc and Crispin are below about air
flows in TLUDs.<br>
<br>
All should note that Paal Wendelbo's Peko Pe TLUD has had some
side-holes in the fuel chamber wall for 2 decades. Not as much
"early secondary air" as Crispin's Vesto. And Paul Wever has
them in his "stove pipe stove". <br>
<br>
My experiments with them were not conclusive about any advantage,
so I have opted to not use them, partly to have less work in
fabrication (no extra holes to make) and partly because the
entering air enters as PRIMARY AIR when the fuel bed is above the
level of each hole, which translates into less control. I will
probably re-visit this topic when time and funds permit.<br>
<br>
MAIN POINT: This is a great example of missed opportunities
because there has never been seriously funded research on the
multitude of controllable variables in TLUD stoves!!! We can see
the possible variations. But we cannot prove them one way or the
other simply by funding them out of the pocketbooks of Paal, Paul,
Crispin and others. YEARS AGO we should have resolved the issues
of the Vesto stove being operated as a TLUD, or as a different
type of stove. The Peko Pe features should be better
understood. As should the issues of Nurhuda's stove, and
Belonio's, and Anderson's and others. Even people who have
resisted TLUD technology for years are becoming involved and still
there is nearly zero coordination. And any financial support
seems to be by-passing the people with experience with
micro-gasifiers, and instead is seeking isolated academic
modelling that (I suspect) will take years to have academic
results. So be it, but let's also give some funds to the
practitioners. <br>
<br>
<u>With all due respect</u> for the need for proper "technology
neutral" distribution of funding, I am getting very tired of
"technology neutral" that gives equal (or more) weight to giving
money (big money) to "business-ready" operations that can start
cranking out stoves to be counted toward the 100 million by 2020.
Instead, the leading technology for lowest emissions from
solid-fuel cookstoves is TLUD (and other micro-gasification), and
it is not yet getting BASIC support that is needed. <br>
<br>
This is how it looks from my vantage point. I hope that the above
is a "reasoned statement", not a "rant." And I am forever an
optimist and have hopes that the situation will improve.<br>
<br>
I look forward to seeing many of you at ETHOS in Seattle and/or at
the GACC Forum in Cambodia.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
*************<br>
Alex English wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Crispin,<br>
Its been a while since I saw the Vesto. It looks from the
pictures like there are secondary air holes all the way up the
central tube. Is that current?<br>
Seems like the top rows would just be adding tramp air
(unemployed air).<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 1/20/2013 9:06 PM, Marc Pare wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">That cutaway is beautiful! Great example of "let the
product speak for itself"
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since seeing counterflow in action, I understand exactly what
you're describing with the air flows. </div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>I didn't understand your emphasis on keeping the flame near
the bed with a "descending burner" until this paragraph:
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:14.44444465637207px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
secondary air is send across the surface to keep a deck
of flame going at the height of the holes. This obviates
the need for adding a circular disk at the top to ’keep
the flame going’. Adding a ‘concentrator’ as Paul calls
it takes more material and moves the fire too far away
from the heat of the pyrolysis bed leading to unwanted
flame-outs from time to time. </span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br clear="all">
<div>I've seen these instabilities quite often in
small-scale pyrolyzers. Great to see a practical measure
to prevent their tendency to "smoke bomb".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
What's on the "to-do" list for this class of design,
Crispin? Are you looking to push it into other
applications? Apply the principles to improve existing
design? (like you mentioned with advancing the Anglo
SupraNova)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Marc Paré<br>
B.S. Mechanical Engineering<br>
Georgia Institute of Technology | Université de
Technologie de Compiègne<br>
<br>
my cv, etc. | <a href="http://notwandering.com" target="_blank">http://notwandering.com</a></div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 9:42 AM,
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dear
Marc and Ron and All interested in air flows</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">This
is a response to questions about air and Marc’s
tube.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Here
is an old photo of secondary air entering the
combustion chamber of a Vesto pushing the flame
to the centre. This accomplishes the following:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Keeps
the fire away from the wall, reducing the
temperature it has to survive (a lot)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Keeps
the flame going</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Not
allowing it to spread to one side away from the
smoke on the other side that might otherwise
‘get away’.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Provides
turbulent mixing of flame, hot secondary air and
smoke</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Allows
for preheating to a significant degree (250-500
C)</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
See Crispin's message at the Stoves Listserv archives.<br>
</div>
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