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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Once upon a time, a Traveller was driving along through a
rural District. He noticed that most stop signs, Billboards, Barn Doors, etc
were shot full of bullet holes, but that the bullet holes were in the exact
center of every circle! He was amazed at the shooting accuracy, and stopped at
the local Barber Shop to find out the identity of the Marksman. When he inquired
of the Barber, the Barber replied:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"That's the Village Idiot. He shoots first and draws the
circle after."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>This silly little story contains an important lesson:
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Arial>"When wishing to develop a new product, first find
what The Market wants, and then build The Product around it."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The Patent Literature abounds with brilliant solutions to
problems that the World does not want solved. They "help the Little Old Lady to
cross the street, when she does not want to cross the street." Many of the
Inventors of such products end up broke and disillusioned. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>As it relates to stoves, what does Fatima in Egypt,
Michelle in Haiti, Joe Pattagoniak's Wife in an Inuktatuck Igloo or
Mohammed's Wife in a Grass Hut in Timbuktu want in a stove? Obviously, different
stoves are required for different applications. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>So, we can configure clever stoves that turn our creative
cranks and are fun to make, and we can develop our own testing procedures that
show how clever our clever stoves are, and with such carefully structured tests,
we can prove that "My clever stove is more clever than your clever stove." How
does that tie in with what Fatima et al, AKA "The Market", wants? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>If the test is based on the time to boil a covered pot,
but the Customer uses an uncovered pot... fail. If the Customer uses a covered
pot, but the test uses an open pot... fail. If the Customer wants heat loss to
the living space, and the test penalizes stove shell loss... fail. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Some forms of "Improved Stove" represent the kind of
progress one gets when one moves the outhouse closer to the back door in the
Winter, and further away in the summer. We can build a stove venting into the
living space that has "an 80% reduction in CO, Tars, BC, and ash emissions" and
call it an "Improved stove." Such stoves will kill people living in Homes built
to First World standards. Certainly, there are Markets for which such stoves are
appropriate, but when tests are structured to require ALL stoves to meet the
requirements of a small section of the total stove market, then progress in the
remainder of the</FONT><FONT face=Arial> Market is seriously
retarded.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>A stove producing char is fabulous when the Customer wants
char, but when the Customer does not want char, it is a fail. A stove that boils
water quickly is great if one wants to sterilize water, but it is a fail if the
Customer wants to bake bread, or to simmer a stew for 2 hours without having to
attend the stove every 10-15 minutes. What is the purpose of a "Stove"?
What does the Customer want it to do? Perhaps the Customer wants an "Improved 3
stone fire that burns 5/7 as much wood, so that she doesn't have to find wood on
the weekend? The main requirements of a stove are:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1: It cooks food and/or heats the living
space</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2: It is fuel efficient.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3: Products of combustion do not harm the Occupants of the
living space.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Why aren't stoves rated on the basis of:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1: ... grams of fuel to cook the food or foods for which
the stove was designed?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2: ... stove heat loss to the living space?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3: ... whether or not the level of products of combustion
within the living space were acceptable or not.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Certainly, other "stove factors" are important, such as
initial cost, life, expected life, etc, but dealing with the above
factors in a way that was meaningful to the Customer would certainly be
helpful. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>There is a Classic Story about the Drunk crawling along in
the gutter one night, under a streetlight. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The Cop asks "What are you doing"? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Drunk says: "I lost my cell phone and am looking for
it." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Cop asks: "Where did you lose it?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Drunk says: "On the other side of the
street."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Cop asks: "Why are you looking here?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Drunk says: "Because there is more light
here."</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I see interesting parallels in stove testing... the tests
seem to be set up to give results that are easy to attain in "The Lab", but
which are not necessarily reflective of conditions that are important to
the Customer in "The Field".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>In theory, it is very easy to get Grant Money...
all the Applicant has to do is show the Donor that he is the best
person to do what the Donor wants done. If a Donor favours a particular
Technology, then that particular technology gets favoured. If the Donor favours
a business at a particular state of development, then that is the "business
state" that will be favoured. Donors don't so much support a given technology,
or a state of business development, but rather, they support a "total situation
that is most likely to get done what the donor wants done." Clearly, if the
Donor wants "Job ABC" done, and the Applicant is superb at "Job XYZ", then the
Applicant will not get funded. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=psanders@ilstu.edu href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">Paul Anderson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=wastemin1@verizon.net
href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net">Hugh McLaughlin</A> ; <A
title=solarbobky@yahoo.com href="mailto:solarbobky@yahoo.com">Bob
Fairchild</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 21, 2013 9:51
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Stoves] Example of missed
opportunities was Re: is this new?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Crispin and all,<BR><BR>Good comments by Alex and
Marc and Crispin are below about air flows in TLUDs.<BR><BR>All should note
that Paal Wendelbo's Peko Pe TLUD has had some side-holes in the fuel chamber
wall for 2 decades. Not as much "early secondary air" as Crispin's
Vesto. And Paul Wever has them in his "stove pipe stove".
<BR><BR>My experiments with them were not conclusive about any advantage, so I
have opted to not use them, partly to have less work in fabrication (no extra
holes to make) and partly because the entering air enters as PRIMARY AIR when
the fuel bed is above the level of each hole, which translates into less
control. I will probably re-visit this topic when time and funds
permit.<BR><BR>MAIN POINT: This is a great example of missed
opportunities because there has never been seriously funded research on the
multitude of controllable variables in TLUD stoves!!! We can see
the possible variations. But we cannot prove them one way or the other
simply by funding them out of the pocketbooks of Paal, Paul, Crispin and
others. YEARS AGO we should have resolved the issues of the Vesto stove
being operated as a TLUD, or as a different type of stove. The
Peko Pe features should be better understood. As should the issues
of Nurhuda's stove, and Belonio's, and Anderson's and others. Even
people who have resisted TLUD technology for years are becoming involved and
still there is nearly zero coordination. And any financial support seems
to be by-passing the people with experience with micro-gasifiers, and instead
is seeking isolated academic modelling that (I suspect) will take years to
have academic results. So be it, but let's also give some funds to the
practitioners. <BR><BR><U>With all due respect</U> for the need for proper
"technology neutral" distribution of funding, I am getting very tired of
"technology neutral" that gives equal (or more) weight to giving money (big
money) to "business-ready" operations that can start cranking out stoves to be
counted toward the 100 million by 2020. Instead, the leading technology
for lowest emissions from solid-fuel cookstoves is TLUD (and other
micro-gasification), and it is not yet getting BASIC support that is
needed. <BR><BR>This is how it looks from my vantage point. I hope
that the above is a "reasoned statement", not a "rant." And I am forever
an optimist and have hopes that the situation will improve.<BR><BR>I
look forward to seeing many of you at ETHOS in Seattle and/or at the GACC
Forum in Cambodia.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>*************<BR>Alex English wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Crispin,<BR>Its been a while since I saw the Vesto.
It looks from the pictures like there are secondary air holes all the way up
the central tube. Is that current?<BR>Seems like the top rows would just be
adding tramp air (unemployed air).<BR><BR>Alex<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE>On
1/20/2013 9:06 PM, Marc Pare wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:CAPJQZbwAP4K3w4mvJOFGKDR34kO0bM1J_KTdCL8b7UB-bx7egg@mail.gmail.com
type="cite">That cutaway is beautiful! Great example of "let the product
speak for itself"
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Since seeing counterflow in action, I understand exactly what you're
describing with the air flows. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I didn't understand your emphasis on keeping the flame near the bed
with a "descending burner" until this paragraph:
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0px">
<DIV><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 14px">The
secondary air is send across the surface to keep a deck of flame going at
the height of the holes. This obviates the need for adding a circular disk
at the top to ’keep the flame going’. Adding a ‘concentrator’ as Paul
calls it takes more material and moves the fire too far away from the heat
of the pyrolysis bed leading to unwanted flame-outs from time to
time. </SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR clear=all>
<DIV>I've seen these instabilities quite often in small-scale pyrolyzers.
Great to see a practical measure to prevent their tendency to "smoke
bomb".</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>What's on the "to-do" list for this class of design, Crispin? Are you
looking to push it into other applications? Apply the principles to improve
existing design? (like you mentioned with advancing the Anglo
SupraNova)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Marc Paré<BR>B.S. Mechanical Engineering<BR>Georgia Institute of
Technology | Université de Technologie de Compiègne<BR><BR>my cv, etc. | <A
href="http://notwandering.com" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">http://notwandering.com</A></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
target=_blank moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Marc and Ron and All interested in air flows</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">This
is a response to questions about air and Marc’s tube.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Here
is an old photo of secondary air entering the combustion chamber of a
Vesto pushing the flame to the centre. This accomplishes the
following:</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Keeps
the fire away from the wall, reducing the temperature it has to survive (a
lot)</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Keeps
the flame going</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Not
allowing it to spread to one side away from the smoke on the other side
that might otherwise ‘get away’.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Provides
turbulent mixing of flame, hot secondary air and smoke</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Allows
for preheating to a significant degree (250-500
C)</SPAN><BR></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>See
Crispin's message at the Stoves Listserv archives.<BR>
<P>
<HR>
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