Hi Dean,<br>Checking in from the Talamanca... we are definitely interested in taking advantage of your offer. T<b>his to others interested in "TLUDish" ND stove development:</b><br>This opportunity will only be significant if it gives <b>us</b> a chance to interact. Price and distance have been big barriers for me, but if I know I will have a group of very focused<b> practitioners</b> to interact with. I will be there.<br>
chao<br><br>Art<br>Proyecto Estufa Finca<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 9:45 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: TLUDs at ETHOS Re: Jatropha fruit as fuel? - and possible<br>
action (Dean Still)<br>
2. Re: Jatropha fruit as fuel? -- and possible project<br>
(Paul Anderson)<br>
3. Re: Jatropha fruit as fuel? -- and possible project (Otto Formo)<br>
4. Re: New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon (Alex English)<br>
5. Re: Jatropha fruit as fuel? - and possible action<br>
(B.C. Romero Orellana)<br>
6. Re: TLUDs at ETHOS Re: Jatropha fruit as fuel? - and possible<br>
action (Paul Anderson)<br>
7. Re: Jatropha fruit as fuel? -- and possible project<br>
(Paul Anderson)<br>
8. Re: Need help in designing a small refrigerator for rural<br>
huts. (Paul Anderson)<br>
9. Re: New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon (Kevin)<br>
10. Handy boiling point calculator (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<br>
11. Re: New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
(Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<br>
12. Re: New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon (Dean Still)<br>
13. Re: is this new? (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<br>
14. Re: New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon (<a href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com">Carefreeland@aol.com</a>)<br>
15. Re: is this new? (Marc Pare)<br>
16. Re: is this new? (Alex English)<br>
17. Re: New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon (Kevin)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 12:13:46 -0800<br>
From: Dean Still <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>, Discussion of biomass cooking<br>
stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] TLUDs at ETHOS Re: Jatropha fruit as fuel? - and<br>
possible action<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CA+tShZuW96gtVBf-EkQVG-CqL33-aHMNp3o9S8o=5yq=p=<a href="mailto:FvaA@mail.gmail.com">FvaA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Hi Paul,<br>
<br>
You asked about my reporting on ARC experiments with TLUDs at ETHOS.<br>
<br>
Christa, Dale, and I are doing an "Introduction to Stove Design" class<br>
Friday 4pm to 5:30pm at the hotel before the movies are shown.<br>
<br>
I'm also doing a "How to Make Tier 3/4 Stoves" presentation at ETHOS that<br>
summarizes work we have done at Aprovecho on optimizing heat transfer<br>
efficiency, Charcoal, Fan stoves, TLUDs, and improved Rockets.<br>
<br>
Paul, I am thinking that Aprovecho could make a week (or maybe two one week<br>
sessions per year) available to the TLUD community at a low, low cost to<br>
use the emission hoods in the lab and the emission set up in the Test<br>
Kitchen. Do you think that there would be interest?<br>
<br>
Natural draft TLUDs are a great invention and if Aprovecho could help all<br>
of you amazing TLUD inventors we want to do it.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Dean<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:25:04 -0600<br>
From: Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Cc: Nathan Puffer <<a href="mailto:nathan@grotontimberworks.com">nathan@grotontimberworks.com</a>>, David Otto<br>
<<a href="mailto:davidpotto@gmail.com">davidpotto@gmail.com</a>>, Hugh McLaughlin <<a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net">wastemin1@verizon.net</a>>, Bob<br>
Fairchild <<a href="mailto:solarbobky@yahoo.com">solarbobky@yahoo.com</a>>, david covert<br>
<<a href="mailto:dcovert@u.washington.edu">dcovert@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel? -- and possible project<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:50FC60B0.1050104@ilstu.edu">50FC60B0.1050104@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Jonathan,<br>
<br>
You wrote:<br>
> we too have had the experience of getting smoke and incomplete<br>
> gasification from very dry seed that was stored too long in arid<br>
> conditions.<br>
I suspect you meant to say "incomplete combustion of the gases". I<br>
suspect that your very dry fuel did get pyrolyzed all the way to<br>
charcoal. (and I suspect that you are not referring to the<br>
gasification of the char, which should not be allowed to occur inside<br>
of TLUD stoves because the high heat of char-gasification is detrimental<br>
to the metal of the stoves.).<br>
<br>
There seem to be enough Jatropha seeds for both pressing them for oil<br>
AND for using some directly as seed-fuels. Advantages of seed fuels<br>
include:<br>
1. Already packaged with a natural protective coating (seed coat, not<br>
referring to the outer husk/shell)<br>
a. to prevent entry of water (until conditions exist for<br>
sprouting). Moisture content (MC) is reasonably consistent in intact<br>
seeds if you give them a little protection from the rain.<br>
b. clean to the touch when handling the fuel. They<br>
scoop well, and make no dust.<br>
c. giving curved sides that allow passage of the needed<br>
Up-Draft primary air in TLUDs<br>
d. (minor negative) prevent quick ignition, so we solve<br>
that by breaking up a few seeds to be at the top for ignition. But no<br>
need to crack them all.<br>
<br>
2. Packed with energy in the form of carbohydrates (and other "stuff"<br>
like oils that burn).<br>
a. That is why we do not burn most seeds, because they<br>
have value as food.<br>
b. But Jatropha seeds are inedible, so we can burn them.<br>
c. The oils can be vaporized by the heat, meaning the<br>
pyrolysis does not occur for the oils.<br>
d. Therefore, per unit of energy ultimately in the<br>
combustion flame, there is LESS charcoal produced per unit of weight<br>
than is the case of wood and maize cobs, etc.<br>
<br>
3. And specifically Jatropha seeds are about the right size for<br>
collection, storage, handling, air passage. And do not forget that the<br>
outer husk/hull can also be collected and used as fuel.<br>
<br>
4. About the press-cake after oil extraction. What I have seen<br>
(Mozambique and Uganda) does not appeal much to me as a fuel. It needs<br>
further handling, is oily, and oil that does not dry remains slippery<br>
and therefore is not naturally great for making pellets or briquettes<br>
stick together. IF the press cake is being produced, then certainly<br>
consider using it as a fuel. But do not expect it to be easy or clean<br>
or even cheap. Certainly not as inexpensive as the intact seeds.<br>
<br>
Again, I will sing the praises of Jet City Stoveworks (Otto brothers Jon<br>
and David and Prof. David Covert) and of Nathan Puffer (Vermont, not NH)<br>
for their work with whole Jatropha seeds in TLUD-ND (Jiko Safi) and<br>
TLUD-FA stoves, respectively. And also Hugh McLaughlin who has done<br>
experimental work with oil seeds as fuels in TLUDS (used sunflower seeds<br>
as a substitute).<br>
<br>
We hope to see the Jiko Safi at ETHOS next week. Maybe there will be<br>
sufficient interest and attendance that we can build with and upon the<br>
Safi work.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072">+1-309-452-7072</a><br>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
<br>
On 1/20/2013 12:16 PM, Jonathan Otto wrote:<br>
> Alex,<br>
><br>
> You and Ron Larson have the memory of an elephant. Yes, I did make<br>
> early postings to this list seeking help as we tried to develop<br>
> a stove to burn liquid Jatropha oil many years ago. As our German<br>
> colleagues at Siemens demonstrated over sevearl years of interesting<br>
> failures, a cheap, easy-to-maintain stove fueled by plant oils is very<br>
> difficult or maybe impossible. Then, for our efforts in Tanzania, Paul<br>
> Anderson came along, preaching the gospel of TLUD, and we realized<br>
> that extracting J oil as a liquid fuel was both unnecessary and<br>
> inappropriate, when we can gasify these oils from within the seed.<br>
><br>
> Moisture level. We've not done any systematic testing of seed<br>
> moisture levels, but it's rarely an issue since people only harvest J<br>
> seeds when they're completely dry on the vine. Some sun drying helps<br>
> if they get wet. Going back to a comment Dean made recently about<br>
> fuel being too dry to gasify well, we too have had the experience of<br>
> getting smoke and incomplete gasification from very dry seed that was<br>
> stored too long in arid conditions. We need more field experience to<br>
> say anything more useful about this.<br>
><br>
> Carl Beilenberg and J oil for electrical generation. I have fallen<br>
> out of touch with Carl in recent years, so I don't know what my fellow<br>
> Vermonter is up to these days, but you can bet it's highly inventive.<br>
> I do know that he used to run his diesel VW on J oil -- quite a trick<br>
> for such a viscous fuel in our northern climate. Since J seed is<br>
> still not a traded commodity in most places, the economics of using it<br>
> as fuel -- solid or liquid -- can't be definitively determined, or I<br>
> should say, will be highly site-specific. The on-farm price range for<br>
> J seed, excepting ridiculous spikes that occurred during the Jatropha<br>
> silly period of the biofuel bubble after 2005, runs from around<br>
> US$0.12 to $0.25 per-kilo in my experience. Depending on efficiency of<br>
> extraction methods, quality of seed, etc., one can get 1 liter from<br>
> 3.5 kg - 5 kg of seed. Of course, feedstock is only one part of the<br>
> cost equation.<br>
><br>
> Thanks for yoiur interest,<br>
><br>
> Jonathan<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 10:14:42 -0500<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Hi Jonathan,<br>
> Its good to hear about the progress you have made. I can remember your<br>
> early missives to this list, was it a decade ago?<br>
> A few questions... about the stove;<br>
><br>
> At what moisture level (in the whole seed) do you see a drop off in<br>
> emissions performance when burned in the Jiko Safi?<br>
> Is it easy for the users to tell when the seeds are dry enough?<br>
><br>
> ...about biofuel;<br>
> Part of the idea was to provide electricity or shaft power to<br>
> communities or business with a Lister engine on Jatropha oil.<br>
> I remember visiting Carl Bielenberg's workshop where he was doing the<br>
> testing.<br>
> Any success stories there or is diesel always cheaper without a carbon<br>
> consideration?<br>
><br>
> Alex<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 20/01/2013 9:23 AM, Jonathan Otto wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hey Richard,<br>
><br>
> Not sure why you feel my briquetting education has been neglected,<br>
> since that kind of fuel is not mentioned in any of my postings;<br>
> but I certainly subscribe to Dean's comment: we all have a lot to<br>
> learn about such alternative fuels. I would add: and the stoves<br>
> that burn them in a truly clean way. Which brings up the<br>
> question: if a briquette or pellet is burned in an open charcoal<br>
> brazier, do we have a clean energy source? To put in another way,<br>
> there are no 'clean' or 'dirty' fuels; it's combination of fuel<br>
> and stove that must be evaluated together for emissions and other<br>
> performance parameters.<br>
><br>
> My densified fuels question to Otto the Senior or anyone else who<br>
> can enlighten me concerning the logic of pelletizing Jatropha<br>
> presscake. If farmers grow their own energy-dense, uniform-sized<br>
> fuel, i.e., whole Jatropha seed, why complicate matters by<br>
> processing that ready-to-use fuel into another fuel? No matter<br>
> how efficient the pelletizing process, it must require time and<br>
> energy. Why not burn these seeds directly in a micro gasifier<br>
> stove, such as our jiko safi?<br>
><br>
> Let me try to head off some likely comments. I know that there are<br>
> companies in many African and Asian countries engaged in<br>
> commercial scale production of Jatropha (and other biofuel<br>
> crops) for export of biodeisel. Land grabbing and other nefarious<br>
> activities of some of these players are obscene, as once again the<br>
> global north exploits tropical countries for cheap/free land and<br>
> cheap labor to meet its own needs.<br>
><br>
> Yes, those Jatropha oil export ventures produce presscake as a<br>
> by-product which they pelletize and market for fuel. And yes, some<br>
> smaller operations in a few countries like Uganda, are trying to<br>
> make a go of producing Jatropha-based biofuels for local and<br>
> regional energy markets. But for all the publicity, most of it<br>
> appropriately negative, in the 'food vs. fuel' analysis, there's a<br>
> lot more to Jatropha than current attempts to put the oil in<br>
> European cars and jet engines.<br>
><br>
> Far apart from all these recent commercial Jatropha ventures, many<br>
> of which are unprofitable for reasons we can discuss another time<br>
> if anyone's interested, are many millions of farmers in over 110<br>
> countries who use Jatropha as a living hedge and for medicianl<br>
> uses. Seems it's grown in every frost-free area of the world. I've<br>
> found it from Cuba -- it's native to the neo-tropics -- to Mali,<br>
> which has thousands of kilometers of hedges, to Bhutan where<br>
> villagers were obliged to pay a Jatropha tax to monks for lighting<br>
> in floating wick lamps.<br>
><br>
> My guess is that over 99% of all Jatropha seed fall to the ground<br>
> and rot, unused. (One study in a district of Tanzania where<br>
> Jatropha seed is a traded commodity found that only 6% of seed is<br>
> harvested.) As we all search for renewable, sustainably harvested<br>
> biomass to fuel our favorite stoves, can we afford to overlook<br>
> seeds of this ubiquitous, multi-use species?<br>
><br>
> The point of importuning my stove list colleagues on a fine Sunday<br>
> morning is to interest other stove makers to look at Jatropha and<br>
> other energy-rich seeds as a category of fuel worth consideration<br>
> for new stove designs. We are modestly pleased with the<br>
> performance of the jiko safi, but we also know that some of you<br>
> with far deeper understanding of gasification and far more<br>
> experience in stove design could produce a much better model.<br>
> Anyone want to take up this challenge?<br>
><br>
> Over to you,<br>
><br>
> Jonathan<br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org">rstanley@legacyfound.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org">rstanley@legacyfound.org</a>><br>
> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:46:53 -0600<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Dear Ottos,<br>
> Seems you both need training in briquettemaking . Jon you know<br>
> where to go in nchi yeti but Otto, where are you based? Seriously,<br>
> the blends you are finding smelly smokey etc suggests that you get<br>
> in touch with any of hundreds of others who can train you.<br>
> Richard Stanley<br>
> Monte Rico,<br>
> Guatemala<br>
><br>
> Sent from my iPhone<br>
><br>
> On Jan 19, 2013, at 18:10, Otto Formo <<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Josh and Jonathan (Otto),<br>
><br>
> Yes, we are talking about the presscake of Jatropha and it was<br>
> processed into pellets localy in Zambia, quite easily and with<br>
> "simple" tools - (no waste of energy)<br>
><br>
> We had the same experience as your colleagues using briquettes<br>
> made out of ricehusks and sawdust.<br>
> They even started to glow like charcoal early in the<br>
> gasification process and produced smoky and smouldery combustion.<br>
><br>
> Thast why we prefer to use pellets of best possible quality.<br>
><br>
> I hope you are correct about the gasification of jatropha<br>
> pellets will destroy the phorbol esters and other problematic<br>
> compounds instead of emitting them.<br>
> Iam a bit worried about the forced draft units, while they<br>
> seems to blow some parts of the ash and gases into the open<br>
> air or room.<br>
><br>
> May be the char from Jatropha could have a pestecide effect as<br>
> well?<br>
><br>
> Otto<br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 18:23:35 -0500<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com">yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com">yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Otto - FYI jatropha presscake (the mealy material left over<br>
> once oil has been pressed out of the seeds) can be directly<br>
> pelletized without further processing. It's pretty easy to<br>
> pelletize, even with a small, cheaper (e.g. benchtop) pellet<br>
> press. The mealy presscake still contains some of the oil<br>
> (think coffee grounds) and it pelletizes well without worry<br>
> over moisture content or having to use a binder.<br>
><br>
> The pellets burn in a TLUD similar to wood or other pellets,<br>
> at least by visual observation and temperature recording. I<br>
> have colleagues that have tried to make cooking briquettes<br>
> with jatropha seedcake and had a very smoky, smouldery<br>
> combustion. I believe there are concerns of some potentially<br>
> toxic emissions (phorbol esters, other compounds?). I have not<br>
> tested the emissions from TLUD charring jatropha pellets, but<br>
> there was no visible smoke and the gasifier seemed to operate<br>
> fine as it does with other types of pellets. It would be<br>
> interesting to know if firing jatropha pellets in a TLUD<br>
> destroys the phorbol esters and other problematic compounds<br>
> instead of emitting them.<br>
><br>
> I first tried to char un-pelletized jatropha seedcake in the<br>
> TLUD - because it is mealy like coffee grounds no draft could<br>
> get through and it was a total fail - lots of smoke poured<br>
> out! This brought the fire department to our Colorado backyard<br>
> during a fire ban. Whoops.<br>
><br>
> Also FYI char made from TLUD jatropha pellets performed<br>
> similar for herbicide uptake from simulated natural water as<br>
> chars made in the same way from pine pellets, bagasse pellets,<br>
> and bamboo pieces.<br>
><br>
> Josh<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Otto<br>
> <<a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a>>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Otto,<br>
><br>
> Whole Jatropha seeds can be picked from hedges on-farm and<br>
> used directly in our jiko safi gasification stove without<br>
> any further effort (except maybe for some sun drying if<br>
> harvested during a damp season) ... the most<br>
> decentralized, efficient sustainable fuel system I can<br>
> imagine.<br>
><br>
> Sure, urban jiko safi users will need to buy their fuel<br>
> seeds, so a commercial system for transport and retail<br>
> sale of seed will be needed eventually, likely mimicking<br>
> some aspects of the charcoal trade. But it's just whole,<br>
> unprocessed seed.<br>
><br>
> Concerning pelletized Jatropha fuel, I would like to<br>
> understand the advantages you find in going through the<br>
> costs and effort (including energy losses) of processing<br>
> seeds to expel the oil, then probably milling the press<br>
> cake and shells (?) to uniform size/texture, then<br>
> extruding or otherwise forming the mixture into pellets,<br>
> and finally distribute the fuel, some of which will go<br>
> back to the same farmers that grew the Jatropha seed in<br>
> the first place?<br>
><br>
> I know there are technical advantages to gasification of<br>
> uniform-sized pellets, but it seems to me that round or<br>
> ovoid shaped seeds like Jatropha, castor (I know, more<br>
> poisons!), shea or croton megalocarpus provide this same<br>
> advantage, without going through the pelletization<br>
> process.What am I missing?<br>
><br>
> Otto, the minor<br>
><br>
> P.S. It's too late for me to retire 'on time'<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:23:37 +0100<br>
><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Jonathan,<br>
><br>
> We have got some samples of pelletized jatropha shells and<br>
> seeds from Zambia, after the oil has been extracted and we<br>
> feel that is the way forward.<br>
><br>
> We will update you on the progress, so you will be albe to<br>
> retire "on time".................:)<br>
> We are not so worried about PM in natural draft gasifiers,<br>
> but thanks for the concern.<br>
><br>
> Otto........................<br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 09:03:35 -0500<br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Otto-<br>
><br>
> You 'would guess' wrong.<br>
><br>
> 'We should be very careful advising people' about such<br>
> unsupported conclusions.<br>
><br>
> The challenges of gasifying oils found in seeds, notably<br>
> the oils of Jatropha seed, in a cookstove are far<br>
> different from working with most pellets formulations.<br>
><br>
> I keenly look forward to news of your all-fuel stoves that<br>
> will handle J seeds, and the results of your tests. I<br>
> sincerely hope you develop this soon, so I can finally<br>
> retire in peace.<br>
><br>
> Oh, and when you do tests, please include particulates in<br>
> your emissions testing, so we can finally end all this<br>
> hand wringing about 'these types of fuel'.<br>
><br>
> >From the cheeky other Otto,<br>
><br>
> Jonathan<br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 23:23:48 +0100<br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Dear stovers,<br>
><br>
> I would guess that "any" gasifier will burn jatropha seeds<br>
> or pellets cleanly and efficient, as long as the moisture<br>
> content are less than 10%.<br>
><br>
> We have in the pipeline to test a new design of natural<br>
> draft gasifiers, using jatropha seeds and pellets, for<br>
> emmissions and toxcic fumes.<br>
><br>
> We should be very carefull adviceing people using these<br>
> types of fuel, before it has been carefully tested by<br>
> independent institutions.<br>
><br>
> Have a nice weekend.<br>
><br>
> Otto (not the famous one..........:)<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:19:11 -0500<br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Dear Jonathan<br>
><br>
> I am interested in the general layout and dimensions of a<br>
> stove that will burn the seeds well. Are you sharing at<br>
> this time anything regarding the design?<br>
><br>
> Thanks<br>
> Crispin<br>
> ++++++++<br>
><br>
> Dear Joyce and stovers all,<br>
><br>
> My regrets for not responding to this request 6 months<br>
> ago. I admit that it got lost in my messy inbox which I<br>
> have now reduced from 6000 messages to a mere 2400, and in<br>
> the process uncovered Joyce's email.<br>
><br>
> Burning Jatropha seeds whole or in briquettes in open<br>
> cooking arrangements is a bad idea. It produces a smoky,<br>
> smelly fire and probably exposes cooks to toxic<br>
> emissions. I even question burning Jatropha oil in lamps<br>
> in enclosed areas for the same reason. Maybe others know<br>
> of emissions studies.<br>
> [snip]<br>
><br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 22:47:32 +0100<br>
From: Otto Formo <<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: Stoves Bioenergylist <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:nathan@grotontimberworks.com">nathan@grotontimberworks.com</a>, <a href="mailto:dcovert@u.washington.edu">dcovert@u.washington.edu</a>,<br>
<a href="mailto:davidpotto@gmail.com">davidpotto@gmail.com</a>, Huge McLaughlin <<a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net">wastemin1@verizon.net</a>>, Bob<br>
Fairchild <<a href="mailto:solarbobky@yahoo.com">solarbobky@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel? -- and possible project<br>
Message-ID: <BAY162-W9645340E688726665A91AEA100@phx.gbl><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
I dont know to much about the presscake of Jatropha from Mosambique or Uganda, but the pellets we were introduced to in Zambia, does not remind me about any of the discription given by Paul.The pellets are dry and easy to handle and far from sticky.<br>
May be we have discovered the "secret" combination .................:)<br>
Have any of you considered to mix it with sawdust, a well known metode to "control" oil spill, or any other suitable biomass?<br>
Otto<br>
<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:25:04 -0600<br>
From: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
CC: <a href="mailto:nathan@grotontimberworks.com">nathan@grotontimberworks.com</a>; <a href="mailto:davidpotto@gmail.com">davidpotto@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net">wastemin1@verizon.net</a>; <a href="mailto:solarbobky@yahoo.com">solarbobky@yahoo.com</a>; <a href="mailto:dcovert@u.washington.edu">dcovert@u.washington.edu</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel? -- and possible project<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jonathan,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You wrote:<br>
<br>
we too have had the experience of getting<br>
smoke and incomplete gasification from very dry seed that was<br>
stored too long in arid conditions.<br>
<br>
<br>
I suspect you meant to say "incomplete combustion of the gases".<br>
I suspect that your very dry fuel did get pyrolyzed all the way to<br>
charcoal. (and I suspect that you are not referring to the<br>
gasification of the char, which should not be allowed to occur<br>
inside of TLUD stoves because the high heat of char-gasification<br>
is detrimental to the metal of the stoves.).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
There seem to be enough Jatropha seeds for both pressing them for<br>
oil AND for using some directly as seed-fuels. Advantages of seed<br>
fuels include:<br>
<br>
1. Already packaged with a natural protective coating (seed coat,<br>
not referring to the outer husk/shell)<br>
<br>
a. to prevent entry of water (until conditions exist<br>
for sprouting). Moisture content (MC) is reasonably consistent in<br>
intact seeds if you give them a little protection from the rain.<br>
<br>
b. clean to the touch when handling the fuel. They<br>
scoop well, and make no dust.<br>
<br>
c. giving curved sides that allow passage of the<br>
needed Up-Draft primary air in TLUDs<br>
<br>
d. (minor negative) prevent quick ignition, so we<br>
solve that by breaking up a few seeds to be at the top for<br>
ignition. But no need to crack them all.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2. Packed with energy in the form of carbohydrates (and other<br>
"stuff" like oils that burn).<br>
<br>
a. That is why we do not burn most seeds, because<br>
they have value as food.<br>
<br>
b. But Jatropha seeds are inedible, so we can burn<br>
them.<br>
<br>
c. The oils can be vaporized by the heat, meaning the<br>
pyrolysis does not occur for the oils.<br>
<br>
d. Therefore, per unit of energy ultimately in the<br>
combustion flame, there is LESS charcoal produced per unit of<br>
weight than is the case of wood and maize cobs, etc.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
3. And specifically Jatropha seeds are about the right size for<br>
collection, storage, handling, air passage. And do not forget<br>
that the outer husk/hull can also be collected and used as fuel.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
4. About the press-cake after oil extraction. What I have seen<br>
(Mozambique and Uganda) does not appeal much to me as a fuel. It<br>
needs further handling, is oily, and oil that does not dry remains<br>
slippery and therefore is not naturally great for making pellets<br>
or briquettes stick together. IF the press cake is being<br>
produced, then certainly consider using it as a fuel. But do not<br>
expect it to be easy or clean or even cheap. Certainly not as<br>
inexpensive as the intact seeds.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Again, I will sing the praises of Jet City Stoveworks (Otto<br>
brothers Jon and David and Prof. David Covert) and of Nathan<br>
Puffer (Vermont, not NH) for their work with whole Jatropha seeds<br>
in TLUD-ND (Jiko Safi) and TLUD-FA stoves, respectively. And also<br>
Hugh McLaughlin who has done experimental work with oil seeds as<br>
fuels in TLUDS (used sunflower seeds as a substitute).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We hope to see the Jiko Safi at ETHOS next week. Maybe there will<br>
be sufficient interest and attendance that we can build with and<br>
upon the Safi work.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +1-309-452-7072 end_of_the_skype_highlighting<br>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
On 1/20/2013 12:16 PM, Jonathan Otto wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Alex,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You and Ron Larson have the memory of an elephant. Yes, I<br>
did make early postings to this list seeking help as we tried to<br>
develop a stove to burn liquid Jatropha oil many years ago.<br>
As our German colleagues at Siemens demonstrated over sevearl<br>
years of interesting failures, a cheap, easy-to-maintain stove<br>
fueled by plant oils is very difficult or maybe impossible.<br>
Then, for our efforts in Tanzania, Paul Anderson came along,<br>
preaching the gospel of TLUD, and we realized that extracting J<br>
oil as a liquid fuel was both unnecessary and inappropriate,<br>
when we can gasify these oils from within the seed.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Moisture level. We've not done any systematic testing of seed<br>
moisture levels, but it's rarely an issue since people only<br>
harvest J seeds when they're completely dry on the vine. Some<br>
sun drying helps if they get wet. Going back to a comment Dean<br>
made recently about fuel being too dry to gasify well, we too<br>
have had the experience of getting smoke and incomplete<br>
gasification from very dry seed that was stored too long in arid<br>
conditions. We need more field experience to say anything more<br>
useful about this.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Carl Beilenberg and J oil for electrical generation. I have<br>
fallen out of touch with Carl in recent years, so I don't know<br>
what my fellow Vermonter is up to these days, but you can bet<br>
it's highly inventive. I do know that he used to run his<br>
diesel VW on J oil -- quite a trick for such a viscous fuel in<br>
our northern climate. Since J seed is still not a traded<br>
commodity in most places, the economics of using it as fuel --<br>
solid or liquid -- can't be definitively determined, or I should<br>
say, will be highly site-specific. The on-farm price range for<br>
J seed, excepting ridiculous spikes that occurred during the<br>
Jatropha silly period of the biofuel bubble after 2005, runs<br>
from around US$0.12 to $0.25 per-kilo in my experience.<br>
Depending on efficiency of extraction methods, quality of seed,<br>
etc., one can get 1 liter from 3.5 kg - 5 kg of seed. Of course,<br>
feedstock is only one part of the cost equation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks for yoiur interest,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jonathan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 10:14:42 -0500<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a><br>
<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Jonathan,<br>
<br>
Its good to hear about the progress you have made. I can<br>
remember your early missives to this list, was it a decade<br>
ago?<br>
<br>
A few questions... about the stove;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At what moisture level (in the whole seed) do you see a drop<br>
off in emissions performance when burned in the Jiko Safi?<br>
<br>
Is it easy for the users to tell when the seeds are dry<br>
enough?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
...about biofuel;<br>
<br>
Part of the idea was to provide electricity or shaft power<br>
to communities or business with a Lister engine on Jatropha<br>
oil.<br>
<br>
I remember visiting Carl Bielenberg's workshop where he was<br>
doing the testing.<br>
<br>
Any success stories there or is diesel always cheaper<br>
without a carbon consideration?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 20/01/2013 9:23 AM, Jonathan Otto wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hey Richard,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not sure why you feel my briquetting education has been<br>
neglected, since that kind of fuel is not mentioned in any<br>
of my postings; but I certainly subscribe to Dean's<br>
comment: we all have a lot to learn about such alternative<br>
fuels. I would add: and the stoves that burn them in a<br>
truly clean way. Which brings up the question: if a<br>
briquette or pellet is burned in an open charcoal brazier,<br>
do we have a clean energy source? To put in another way,<br>
there are no 'clean' or 'dirty' fuels; it's combination of<br>
fuel and stove that must be evaluated together for<br>
emissions and other performance parameters.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
My densified fuels question to Otto the Senior or anyone<br>
else who can enlighten me concerning the logic<br>
of pelletizing Jatropha presscake. If farmers grow their<br>
own energy-dense, uniform-sized fuel, i.e., whole Jatropha<br>
seed, why complicate matters by processing that<br>
ready-to-use fuel into another fuel? No matter<br>
how efficient the pelletizing process, it must require<br>
time and energy. Why not burn these seeds directly in a<br>
micro gasifier stove, such as our jiko safi?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Let me try to head off some likely comments. I know that<br>
there are companies in many African and Asian countries<br>
engaged in commercial scale production of Jatropha (and<br>
other biofuel crops) for export of biodeisel. Land<br>
grabbing and other nefarious activities of some of these<br>
players are obscene, as once again the global<br>
north exploits tropical countries for cheap/free land and<br>
cheap labor to meet its own needs.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Yes, those Jatropha oil export ventures produce presscake<br>
as a by-product which they pelletize and market for fuel.<br>
And yes, some smaller operations in a few countries<br>
like Uganda, are trying to make a go of producing<br>
Jatropha-based biofuels for local and regional energy<br>
markets. But for all the publicity, most of it<br>
appropriately negative, in the 'food vs. fuel'<br>
analysis, there's a lot more to Jatropha than current<br>
attempts to put the oil in European cars and jet engines.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Far apart from all these recent commercial Jatropha<br>
ventures, many of which are unprofitable for reasons we<br>
can discuss another time if anyone's interested, are many<br>
millions of farmers in over 110 countries who use<br>
Jatropha as a living hedge and for medicianl uses. Seems<br>
it's grown in every frost-free area of the world. I've<br>
found it from Cuba -- it's native to the neo-tropics -- to<br>
Mali, which has thousands of kilometers of hedges, to<br>
Bhutan where villagers were obliged to pay a Jatropha tax<br>
to monks for lighting in floating wick lamps.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
My guess is that over 99% of all Jatropha seed fall to the<br>
ground and rot, unused. (One study in a district of<br>
Tanzania where Jatropha seed is a traded commodity found<br>
that only 6% of seed is harvested.) As we all search for<br>
renewable, sustainably harvested biomass to fuel our<br>
favorite stoves, can we afford to overlook seeds of this<br>
ubiquitous, multi-use species?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The point of importuning my stove list colleagues on a<br>
fine Sunday morning is to interest other stove makers to<br>
look at Jatropha and other energy-rich seeds as a category<br>
of fuel worth consideration for new stove designs. We are<br>
modestly pleased with the performance of the jiko safi,<br>
but we also know that some of you with far deeper<br>
understanding of gasification and far more experience in<br>
stove design could produce a much better model. Anyone<br>
want to take up this challenge?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Over to you,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jonathan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org">rstanley@legacyfound.org</a><br>
<br>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:46:53 -0600<br>
<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Ottos,<br>
Seems you both need training in briquettemaking .<br>
Jon you know where to go in nchi yeti but Otto, where<br>
are you based? Seriously, the blends you are finding<br>
smelly smokey etc suggests that you get in touch with<br>
any of hundreds of others who can train you.<br>
Richard Stanley<br>
Monte Rico,<br>
Guatemala<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jan 19, 2013, at 18:10, Otto Formo <<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Josh and Jonathan (Otto),<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Yes, we are talking about the presscake of<br>
Jatropha and it was processed into pellets<br>
localy in Zambia, quite easily and with "simple"<br>
tools - (no waste of energy)<br>
<br>
<br>
We had the same experience as your colleagues<br>
using briquettes made out of ricehusks and<br>
sawdust.<br>
They even started to glow like charcoal early<br>
in the gasification process and produced smoky<br>
and smouldery combustion.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thast why we prefer to use pellets of best<br>
possible quality.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I hope you are correct about the gasification of<br>
jatropha pellets will destroy the phorbol<br>
esters and other problematic compounds instead<br>
of emitting them.<br>
Iam a bit<br>
worried about the forced draft units, while<br>
they seems to blow some parts of the ash and<br>
gases into the open air or room.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
May be the char from Jatropha could have a<br>
pestecide effect as well?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 18:23:35 -0500<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com">yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto - FYI jatropha presscake (the mealy<br>
material left over once oil has been pressed<br>
out of the seeds) can be directly pelletized<br>
without further processing. It's pretty easy<br>
to pelletize, even with a small, cheaper (e.g.<br>
benchtop) pellet press. The mealy presscake<br>
still contains some of the oil (think coffee<br>
grounds) and it pelletizes well without worry<br>
over moisture content or having to use a<br>
binder.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The pellets burn in a TLUD similar to<br>
wood or other pellets, at least by visual<br>
observation and temperature recording. I<br>
have colleagues that have tried to make<br>
cooking briquettes with jatropha seedcake<br>
and had a very smoky, smouldery combustion.<br>
I believe there are concerns of some<br>
potentially toxic emissions (phorbol esters,<br>
other compounds?). I have not tested the<br>
emissions from TLUD charring jatropha<br>
pellets, but there was no visible smoke and<br>
the gasifier seemed to operate fine as it<br>
does with other types of pellets. It would<br>
be interesting to know if firing jatropha<br>
pellets in a TLUD destroys the phorbol<br>
esters and other problematic compounds<br>
instead of emitting them.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I first tried to char un-pelletized<br>
jatropha seedcake in the TLUD - because it<br>
is mealy like coffee grounds no draft could<br>
get through and it was a total fail - lots<br>
of smoke poured out! This brought the fire<br>
department to our Colorado backyard during a<br>
fire ban. Whoops.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Also FYI char made from TLUD jatropha<br>
pellets performed similar for herbicide<br>
uptake from simulated natural water as chars<br>
made in the same way from pine pellets,<br>
bagasse pellets, and bamboo pieces.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Josh<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Jan 19,<br>
2013 at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Otto <<a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto,<br>
<br>
Whole<br>
Jatropha seeds can be picked<br>
from hedges on-farm and used<br>
directly in our jiko safi<br>
gasification stove without any<br>
further effort (except maybe for<br>
some sun drying if<br>
harvested during a damp season)<br>
? the most decentralized,<br>
efficient sustainable fuel<br>
system I can imagine.<br>
<br>
Sure,<br>
urban jiko safi users will need<br>
to buy their fuel seeds, so a<br>
commercial system for transport<br>
and retail sale of seed will be<br>
needed eventually, likely<br>
mimicking some aspects of the<br>
charcoal trade. But it?s just<br>
whole, unprocessed seed.<br>
<br>
Concerning<br>
pelletized Jatropha fuel, I<br>
would like to understand the<br>
advantages you find in going<br>
through the costs and effort<br>
(including energy losses) of<br>
processing seeds to expel the<br>
oil, then probably milling the<br>
press cake and shells (?) to<br>
uniform size/texture, then<br>
extruding or otherwise forming<br>
the mixture into pellets, and<br>
finally distribute the fuel,<br>
some of which will go back to<br>
the same farmers that grew the<br>
Jatropha seed in the first<br>
place?<br>
<br>
I<br>
know there are technical<br>
advantages to gasification of<br>
uniform-sized pellets, but it<br>
seems to me that round or<br>
ovoid shaped seeds like<br>
Jatropha, castor (I know, more<br>
poisons!), shea or croton<br>
megalocarpus provide this<br>
same advantage, without<br>
going through the<br>
pelletization process.<br>
What am I missing?<br>
<br>
Otto,<br>
the minor<br>
<br>
P.S.<br>
It's too late for me to retire<br>
'on time'<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a><br>
<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:23:37<br>
+0100<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha<br>
fruit as fuel?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jonathan,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We have got some<br>
samples of pelletized<br>
jatropha shells and seeds<br>
from Zambia, after the oil<br>
has been extracted and we<br>
feel that is the way<br>
forward.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We will update you on<br>
the progress, so you will<br>
be albe to retire "on<br>
time".................:)<br>
<br>
We are not so worried<br>
about PM in natural draft<br>
gasifiers, but thanks for<br>
the concern.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto........................<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a><br>
<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013<br>
09:03:35 -0500<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves]<br>
Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You 'would guess'<br>
wrong.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
'We should be very<br>
careful advising<br>
people' about such<br>
unsupported<br>
conclusions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The challenges of<br>
gasifying oils found<br>
in seeds, notably the<br>
oils of Jatropha seed,<br>
in a cookstove are far<br>
different from working<br>
with most pellets<br>
formulations.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I keenly look forward<br>
to news of your<br>
all-fuel stoves that<br>
will handle J<br>
seeds, and the results<br>
of your tests. I<br>
sincerely hope<br>
you develop this soon,<br>
so I can finally<br>
retire in peace.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Oh, and when you do<br>
tests, please include<br>
particulates in your<br>
emissions testing, so<br>
we can finally end all<br>
this hand wringing<br>
about 'these types of<br>
fuel'.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>From the cheeky<br>
other Otto,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jonathan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a><br>
<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan<br>
2013 23:23:48 +0100<br>
<br>
Subject: Re:<br>
[Stoves] Jatropha<br>
fruit as fuel?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
stovers,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I would guess<br>
that "any"<br>
gasifier will<br>
burn jatropha<br>
seeds or pellets<br>
cleanly and<br>
efficient, as<br>
long as the<br>
moisture content<br>
are less than<br>
10%.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We have in<br>
the pipeline to<br>
test a new<br>
design of<br>
natural draft<br>
gasifiers, using<br>
jatropha seeds<br>
and pellets, for<br>
emmissions and<br>
toxcic fumes.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We should be<br>
very carefull<br>
adviceing people<br>
using these<br>
types of fuel,<br>
before it has<br>
been carefully<br>
tested by<br>
independent<br>
institutions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Have a nice<br>
weekend.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto (not the<br>
famous<br>
one..........:)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
Date: Fri, 18<br>
Jan 2013<br>
10:19:11 -0500<br>
<br>
Subject: Re:<br>
[Stoves]<br>
Jatropha fruit<br>
as fuel?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
Jonathan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I am<br>
interested in<br>
the general<br>
layout and<br>
dimensions of<br>
a stove that<br>
will burn the<br>
seeds well.<br>
Are you<br>
sharing at<br>
this time<br>
anything<br>
regarding the<br>
design?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Crispin<br>
<br>
<br>
++++++++<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
Joyce and<br>
stovers all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
My regrets for<br>
not responding<br>
to this<br>
request 6<br>
months ago.<br>
I admit that<br>
it got lost in<br>
my messy inbox<br>
which I have<br>
now reduced<br>
from 6000<br>
messages to a<br>
mere 2400, and<br>
in the process<br>
uncovered Joyce's<br>
email.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Burning<br>
Jatropha seeds<br>
whole or in<br>
briquettes in<br>
open cooking<br>
arrangements<br>
is a bad<br>
idea. It<br>
produces a<br>
smoky, smelly<br>
fire and<br>
probably<br>
exposes cooks<br>
to toxic<br>
emissions. I<br>
even question<br>
burning<br>
Jatropha oil<br>
in lamps in<br>
enclosed areas<br>
for the same<br>
reason. Maybe<br>
others know of<br>
emissions<br>
studies.<br>
<br>
[snip]<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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PhD Candidate, Environmental Engineering<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:32:57 -0500<br>
From: Alex English <<a href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:50FC7099.6090403@kingston.net">50FC7099.6090403@kingston.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dan,<br>
It is being studied widely. Everything from pesticides, PCB's and<br>
miscelaneous hydrocarbons to specific heavy metals. Biochar gets<br>
compared straight up with Granular Activated Carbons, with some added<br>
agronomic benefits. That is where it could scale up in the near term.<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
On 20/01/2013 12:12 AM, <a href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com">Carefreeland@aol.com</a> wrote:<br>
> I wonder if anyone has tried to clean up contaminated land with<br>
> biochar? What effect would it have on heavy metals or oil based<br>
> contaminants? Lots of prime real estate worthless because of trace<br>
> contaminants.<br>
> Dan Dimiduk<br>
> In a message dated 1/18/2013 5:34:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,<br>
> <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> writes:<br>
><br>
> Kevin, Crispin and list:<br>
><br>
> This is to also answer the two following messages from<br>
> yourselves. I did not find them helpful - as they assume the only<br>
> economics relate to the carbon credit. They assume nothing<br>
> (repeat nothing) about the value to the user in outyear ag<br>
> benefits. Tell me how farmers in the world will react to news<br>
> that (for example) land worth zero today can be brought up to a<br>
> productivity level the same as other existing ag land nearby (same<br>
> rainfall etc.) Let's say that land can, after applying biochar<br>
> be worth $500/ha rather than $0/ha. If those farmers have a<br>
> discount rate of 5% or 50% will make a big difference on how much<br>
> they will be willing to spend per tonne of biochar and how many<br>
> tonnes per ha (which could be in rows or holes - not uniformly<br>
> scattered). Which discount rate are you using for these out-year<br>
> benefit computations?<br>
> You can't prove biochar is worthless by talking to this list<br>
> only about credits of $6/tonne CO2.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:38:02 -0600<br>
From: "B.C. Romero Orellana" <<a href="mailto:bcromero@gmail.com">bcromero@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel? - and possible action<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CALBRRfUw6yNx=pV5=<a href="mailto:Ehodsq5Pte_VT5b62e_WTizhQxD49Y4bA@mail.gmail.com">Ehodsq5Pte_VT5b62e_WTizhQxD49Y4bA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Dear all: can be used the by product of jathropha oil production waste to<br>
made briquets and use a hood to remove the smoke.?<br>
<br>
It can be possible if the women do not move the stove from room to room<br>
every other day Is that the case in the places that you are trying to use<br>
it?<br>
<br>
2013/1/20 Dean Still <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
> Hi All,<br>
><br>
> I'm finding that Tier 3 performance is very demanding, hard to achieve.<br>
> The TLUD and the prepared fuel (I find that only small pellets burn cleanly<br>
> enough) have to be in harmony to meet the Tier 3 level at high and low<br>
> power. It's all possible but exacting.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
><br>
> Dean<br>
><br>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Stovers,<br>
>><br>
>> Excellent discussion. Jon's message below puts it into perspective. I<br>
>> oversimplify what Crispin has said in the past: There are no bad fuels,<br>
>> just bad stoves. (Exaggeration has its impact!! Basically, I agree with<br>
>> Crispin.)<br>
>><br>
>> And Paal Wendelbo always says: Start with the fuel. And Jon points<br>
>> out the abundant Jatropha seeds. I add that "abundance" in nature is not<br>
>> the same as abundant in supply, meaning that it fuel needs to be<br>
>> collected. So we have the chicken and egg problem of which comes first.<br>
>> Leaving that aside, please note.<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Jatropha and other oil-seeds not only yield pyrolytic gases and char<br>
>> and heat, they also yield great amounts of vaporized oils that are<br>
>> combustible. That difference is vastly important for the TLUD gasifier<br>
>> (all micro-gasifiers) operations. That means, MUCH MORE SECONDARY AIR is<br>
>> needed. It is not sufficient to simply turn down the primary air. And on<br>
>> this basis, I believe that ONLY gasifier stoves are viable candidates to<br>
>> have sufficiently clean combustion for Jatropha-seed fuel.<br>
>><br>
>> 2. We cannot ignore the need for some chemical analysis of the emissions<br>
>> from the stoves AFTER the good combustion of the gases. Can any bad stuff<br>
>> survive the high heat of the combustion stage in a gasifier stove?<br>
>><br>
>> 3. Two known and proven and accomplished ways of successfully using<br>
>> Jatropha (oil-seed) seed fuel in a TLUD stove. Natural draft (TLUD-ND) is<br>
>> accomplished by the Jiko Safi by Jet City Stoveworks. It has a central<br>
>> pipe for additional secondary air. More holes for secondary air to mix<br>
>> into (with less distance to move horiziontally) the volume of fuel rich<br>
>> gases. Someone suggested removing that central pipe. That does not<br>
>> work. That was tried before the success came with the central pipe.<br>
>> Step back for actual success, repeat what was not successful earlier, and<br>
>> make no progress. Anyone is welcome to try it again.<br>
>><br>
>> 4. TLUD-FA (forced air or fan-asssisted) with Jatropha seed fuel has<br>
>> also been successful. It was done by Nathan Puffer and seen as<br>
>> Gasifier/CHAB stove camp in 2010 at NESFI in MA. Done. It can be<br>
>> improved. But there are no funds to undertake its refinement. And then<br>
>> it has the higher price factor that puts these stoves out of purchasing<br>
>> reach of those who need them. AND you have to get the fuel supply chain<br>
>> functioning. Nathan (of New Hampshire) is active for a couple of decades<br>
>> in Kenya, and his latest work is with the natural draft TChar TLUD-ND in<br>
>> Kenya. Financial assistance would be appreciated and appropriate. (I will<br>
>> be mentioning more about his TChar work in my presentation at ETHOS next<br>
>> week. I might entitle my presentation: "Unsung Heros of TLUD Stoves",<br>
>> but I cannot find many who have been "Sung").<br>
>><br>
>> Jonathan concluded:<br>
>><br>
>> The point of importuning my stove list colleagues on a fine Sunday<br>
>> morning is to interest other stove makers to look at Jatropha and other<br>
>> energy-rich seeds as a category of fuel worth consideration for new stove<br>
>> designs. We are modestly pleased with the performance of the jiko safi,<br>
>> but we also know that some of you with far deeper understanding of<br>
>> gasification and far more experience in stove design could produce a much<br>
>> better model. Anyone want to take up this challenge?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Yes, but there needs to be some financial support. Personally, I am<br>
>> pressed too thinly for money and time to undertake anything without serious<br>
>> co-workers/partners/associates/backers. Solutions that are needed do not<br>
>> grow on trees (although the fuels do). So far I have not seen any GACC<br>
>> funding that can be directed to the R&D efforts for stoves such as<br>
>> Jatropha-seed TLUDs. That is NOT the mission of the GACC. Other sources,<br>
>> maybe exist. On the other hand, GACC support for an EXISTING product<br>
>> (the Jiko Safi) could stimulate sufficient business that the owners can<br>
>> also do some refinements that would soon be evident in the second wave of<br>
>> production. If we are going to get the NEEDED stoves, we must acknowledge<br>
>> that there will be improvements on the existing stoves. If that means R&D,<br>
>> then that must happen. But we just need to have it done by companies that<br>
>> are sufficiently funded to be successful enough to study, learn, and<br>
>> improve their stoves.<br>
>><br>
>> Summary: This topic keeps coming up, and it is time to do something<br>
>> about it.<br>
>> 1. Support for Jiko Safi stove (Jet City Stoveworks -- the Otto brothers<br>
>> plus)(Tanzania base)<br>
>> 2. I will assist, and can bring Awamu Biomass Energy Ltd (Uganda) into<br>
>> participation<br>
>> 3. Nathan Puffer (focus on Kenya efforts)<br>
>> 4. Others (self-nominate here)<br>
>> 5. Some sources of funding (we do not know who you are, so please speak<br>
>> up)<br>
>> 6. Others (who will gladly join when some funding is available.)<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
>> Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
>> Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
>><br>
>> On 1/20/2013 8:23 AM, Jonathan Otto wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hey Richard,<br>
>><br>
>> Not sure why you feel my briquetting education has been neglected, since<br>
>> that kind of fuel is not mentioned in any of my postings; but I certainly<br>
>> subscribe to Dean's comment: we all have a lot to learn about such<br>
>> alternative fuels. I would add: and the stoves that burn them in a truly<br>
>> clean way. Which brings up the question: if a briquette or pellet is<br>
>> burned in an open charcoal brazier, do we have a clean energy source? To<br>
>> put in another way, there are no 'clean' or 'dirty' fuels; it's combination<br>
>> of fuel and stove that must be evaluated together for emissions and other<br>
>> performance parameters.<br>
>><br>
>> My densified fuels question to Otto the Senior or anyone else who can<br>
>> enlighten me concerning the logic of pelletizing Jatropha presscake. If<br>
>> farmers grow their own energy-dense, uniform-sized fuel, i.e., whole<br>
>> Jatropha seed, why complicate matters by processing that ready-to-use fuel<br>
>> into another fuel? No matter how efficient the pelletizing process,<br>
>> it must require time and energy. Why not burn these seeds directly in a<br>
>> micro gasifier stove, such as our jiko safi?<br>
>><br>
>> Let me try to head off some likely comments. I know that there are<br>
>> companies in many African and Asian countries engaged in commercial<br>
>> scale production of Jatropha (and other biofuel crops) for export<br>
>> of biodeisel. Land grabbing and other nefarious activities of some of these<br>
>> players are obscene, as once again the global north exploits tropical<br>
>> countries for cheap/free land and cheap labor to meet its own needs.<br>
>><br>
>> Yes, those Jatropha oil export ventures produce presscake as a by-product<br>
>> which they pelletize and market for fuel. And yes, some smaller operations<br>
>> in a few countries like Uganda, are trying to make a go of producing<br>
>> Jatropha-based biofuels for local and regional energy markets. But for all<br>
>> the publicity, most of it appropriately negative, in the 'food vs. fuel'<br>
>> analysis, there's a lot more to Jatropha than current attempts to put the<br>
>> oil in European cars and jet engines.<br>
>><br>
>> Far apart from all these recent commercial Jatropha ventures, many<br>
>> of which are unprofitable for reasons we can discuss another time if<br>
>> anyone's interested, are many millions of farmers in over 110<br>
>> countries who use Jatropha as a living hedge and for medicianl uses. Seems<br>
>> it's grown in every frost-free area of the world. I've found it from<br>
>> Cuba -- it's native to the neo-tropics -- to Mali, which has thousands of<br>
>> kilometers of hedges, to Bhutan where villagers were obliged to pay a<br>
>> Jatropha tax to monks for lighting in floating wick lamps.<br>
>><br>
>> My guess is that over 99% of all Jatropha seed fall to the ground and<br>
>> rot, unused. (One study in a district of Tanzania where Jatropha seed is a<br>
>> traded commodity found that only 6% of seed is harvested.) As we all<br>
>> search for renewable, sustainably harvested biomass to fuel our favorite<br>
>> stoves, can we afford to overlook seeds of this ubiquitous, multi-use<br>
>> species?<br>
>><br>
>> The point of importuning my stove list colleagues on a fine Sunday<br>
>> morning is to interest other stove makers to look at Jatropha and other<br>
>> energy-rich seeds as a category of fuel worth consideration for new stove<br>
>> designs. We are modestly pleased with the performance of the jiko safi,<br>
>> but we also know that some of you with far deeper understanding of<br>
>> gasification and far more experience in stove design could produce a much<br>
>> better model. Anyone want to take up this challenge?<br>
>><br>
>> Over to you,<br>
>><br>
>> Jonathan<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>><br>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
>> <a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
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<br>
--<br>
Carolina Romero<br>
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<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:53:42 -0600<br>
From: Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
To: Dean Still <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] TLUDs at ETHOS Re: Jatropha fruit as fuel? - and<br>
possible action<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:50FC7576.6030901@ilstu.edu">50FC7576.6030901@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Dean,<br>
<br>
I look forward to hearing your results. Let's hope that your session<br>
does not get scheduled for the same time as mine. But such problems<br>
happen.<br>
<br>
We can discuss options on having camps. Sounds interesting. Be sure<br>
to bring some numbers about the costs and all that stuff.<br>
<br>
Looking ahead in 2013, there will probably be another Gasifier/Biochar<br>
stove camp in Tennessee (dates not yet even discussed), but not at NESFI<br>
in MA this summer because the large North American Biochar Conference<br>
will be in that area in October.<br>
<br>
See you in Seattle.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
<br>
On 1/20/2013 2:13 PM, Dean Still wrote:<br>
> Hi Paul,<br>
><br>
> You asked about my reporting on ARC experiments with TLUDs at ETHOS.<br>
><br>
> Christa, Dale, and I are doing an "Introduction to Stove Design" class<br>
> Friday 4pm to 5:30pm at the hotel before the movies are shown.<br>
><br>
> I'm also doing a "How to Make Tier 3/4 Stoves" presentation at ETHOS<br>
> that summarizes work we have done at Aprovecho on optimizing heat<br>
> transfer efficiency, Charcoal, Fan stoves, TLUDs, and improved Rockets.<br>
><br>
> Paul, I am thinking that Aprovecho could make a week (or maybe two one<br>
> week sessions per year) available to the TLUD community at a low, low<br>
> cost to use the emission hoods in the lab and the emission set up in<br>
> the Test Kitchen. Do you think that there would be interest?<br>
><br>
> Natural draft TLUDs are a great invention and if Aprovecho could help<br>
> all of you amazing TLUD inventors we want to do it.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
><br>
> Dean<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:00:10 -0600<br>
From: Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:nathan@grotontimberworks.com">nathan@grotontimberworks.com</a>, <a href="mailto:davidpotto@gmail.com">davidpotto@gmail.com</a>, Huge<br>
McLaughlin <<a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net">wastemin1@verizon.net</a>>, Bob Fairchild<br>
<<a href="mailto:solarbobky@yahoo.com">solarbobky@yahoo.com</a>>, Otto Formo <<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>>,<br>
<a href="mailto:dcovert@u.washington.edu">dcovert@u.washington.edu</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel? -- and possible project<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:50FC76FA.70009@ilstu.edu">50FC76FA.70009@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dear Otto,<br>
<br>
Sounds like you have a formula for those pellets. Maybe others can<br>
replicate it. (I was not making pellets, I just had contact with the<br>
press-cake). Or is it possible to get any of those pellets?<br>
<br>
How can we proceed with this?<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
<br>
On 1/20/2013 3:47 PM, Otto Formo wrote:<br>
> Dear all,<br>
><br>
> I dont know to much about the presscake of Jatropha from Mosambique or<br>
> Uganda, but the pellets we were introduced to in Zambia, does not<br>
> remind me about any of the discription given by Paul.<br>
> The pellets are dry and easy to handle and far from sticky.<br>
><br>
> May be we have discovered the "secret" combination .................:)<br>
><br>
> Have any of you considered to mix it with sawdust, a well known metode<br>
> to "control" oil spill, or any other suitable biomass?<br>
><br>
> Otto<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:25:04 -0600<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> CC: <a href="mailto:nathan@grotontimberworks.com">nathan@grotontimberworks.com</a>; <a href="mailto:davidpotto@gmail.com">davidpotto@gmail.com</a>;<br>
> <a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net">wastemin1@verizon.net</a>; <a href="mailto:solarbobky@yahoo.com">solarbobky@yahoo.com</a>; <a href="mailto:dcovert@u.washington.edu">dcovert@u.washington.edu</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel? -- and possible project<br>
><br>
> Jonathan,<br>
><br>
> You wrote:<br>
><br>
> we too have had the experience of getting smoke and incomplete<br>
> gasification from very dry seed that was stored too long in arid<br>
> conditions.<br>
><br>
> I suspect you meant to say "incomplete combustion of the gases". I<br>
> suspect that your very dry fuel did get pyrolyzed all the way to<br>
> charcoal. (and I suspect that you are not referring to the<br>
> gasification of the char, which should not be allowed to occur inside<br>
> of TLUD stoves because the high heat of char-gasification is<br>
> detrimental to the metal of the stoves.).<br>
><br>
> There seem to be enough Jatropha seeds for both pressing them for oil<br>
> AND for using some directly as seed-fuels. Advantages of seed fuels<br>
> include:<br>
> 1. Already packaged with a natural protective coating (seed coat, not<br>
> referring to the outer husk/shell)<br>
> a. to prevent entry of water (until conditions exist for<br>
> sprouting). Moisture content (MC) is reasonably consistent in intact<br>
> seeds if you give them a little protection from the rain.<br>
> b. clean to the touch when handling the fuel. They<br>
> scoop well, and make no dust.<br>
> c. giving curved sides that allow passage of the needed<br>
> Up-Draft primary air in TLUDs<br>
> d. (minor negative) prevent quick ignition, so we solve<br>
> that by breaking up a few seeds to be at the top for ignition. But<br>
> no need to crack them all.<br>
><br>
> 2. Packed with energy in the form of carbohydrates (and other "stuff"<br>
> like oils that burn).<br>
> a. That is why we do not burn most seeds, because they<br>
> have value as food.<br>
> b. But Jatropha seeds are inedible, so we can burn them.<br>
> c. The oils can be vaporized by the heat, meaning the<br>
> pyrolysis does not occur for the oils.<br>
> d. Therefore, per unit of energy ultimately in the<br>
> combustion flame, there is LESS charcoal produced per unit of weight<br>
> than is the case of wood and maize cobs, etc.<br>
><br>
> 3. And specifically Jatropha seeds are about the right size for<br>
> collection, storage, handling, air passage. And do not forget that<br>
> the outer husk/hull can also be collected and used as fuel.<br>
><br>
> 4. About the press-cake after oil extraction. What I have seen<br>
> (Mozambique and Uganda) does not appeal much to me as a fuel. It<br>
> needs further handling, is oily, and oil that does not dry remains<br>
> slippery and therefore is not naturally great for making pellets or<br>
> briquettes stick together. IF the press cake is being produced, then<br>
> certainly consider using it as a fuel. But do not expect it to be<br>
> easy or clean or even cheap. Certainly not as inexpensive as the<br>
> intact seeds.<br>
><br>
> Again, I will sing the praises of Jet City Stoveworks (Otto brothers<br>
> Jon and David and Prof. David Covert) and of Nathan Puffer (Vermont,<br>
> not NH) for their work with whole Jatropha seeds in TLUD-ND (Jiko<br>
> Safi) and TLUD-FA stoves, respectively. And also Hugh McLaughlin who<br>
> has done experimental work with oil seeds as fuels in TLUDS (used<br>
> sunflower seeds as a substitute).<br>
><br>
> We hope to see the Jiko Safi at ETHOS next week. Maybe there will be<br>
> sufficient interest and attendance that we can build with and upon the<br>
> Safi work.<br>
><br>
> Paul<br>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
> <a href="mailto:Email%3Apsanders@ilstu.edu">Email:psanders@ilstu.edu</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> Skype: paultlud Phone:+1-309-452-7072 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +1-309-452-7072 end_of_the_skype_highlighting<br>
> Website:<a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a> <<a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">http://www.drtlud.com</a>><br>
> On 1/20/2013 12:16 PM, Jonathan Otto wrote:<br>
><br>
> Alex,<br>
><br>
> You and Ron Larson have the memory of an elephant. Yes, I did make<br>
> early postings to this list seeking help as we tried to develop<br>
> a stove to burn liquid Jatropha oil many years ago. As our German<br>
> colleagues at Siemens demonstrated over sevearl years of<br>
> interesting failures, a cheap, easy-to-maintain stove fueled<br>
> by plant oils is very difficult or maybe impossible. Then, for our<br>
> efforts in Tanzania, Paul Anderson came along, preaching the<br>
> gospel of TLUD, and we realized that extracting J oil as a liquid<br>
> fuel was both unnecessary and inappropriate, when we can gasify<br>
> these oils from within the seed.<br>
><br>
> Moisture level. We've not done any systematic testing of seed<br>
> moisture levels, but it's rarely an issue since people only<br>
> harvest J seeds when they're completely dry on the vine. Some sun<br>
> drying helps if they get wet. Going back to a comment Dean made<br>
> recently about fuel being too dry to gasify well, we too have had<br>
> the experience of getting smoke and incomplete gasification from<br>
> very dry seed that was stored too long in arid conditions. We<br>
> need more field experience to say anything more useful about this.<br>
><br>
> Carl Beilenberg and J oil for electrical generation. I have<br>
> fallen out of touch with Carl in recent years, so I don't know<br>
> what my fellow Vermonter is up to these days, but you can bet it's<br>
> highly inventive. I do know that he used to run his diesel VW on<br>
> J oil -- quite a trick for such a viscous fuel in our northern<br>
> climate. Since J seed is still not a traded commodity in most<br>
> places, the economics of using it as fuel -- solid or liquid --<br>
> can't be definitively determined, or I should say, will be highly<br>
> site-specific. The on-farm price range for J seed, excepting<br>
> ridiculous spikes that occurred during the Jatropha silly period<br>
> of the biofuel bubble after 2005, runs from around US$0.12 to<br>
> $0.25 per-kilo in my experience. Depending on efficiency of<br>
> extraction methods, quality of seed, etc., one can get 1 liter<br>
> from 3.5 kg - 5 kg of seed. Of course, feedstock is only one part<br>
> of the cost equation.<br>
><br>
> Thanks for yoiur interest,<br>
><br>
> Jonathan<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 10:14:42 -0500<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Hi Jonathan,<br>
> Its good to hear about the progress you have made. I can remember<br>
> your early missives to this list, was it a decade ago?<br>
> A few questions... about the stove;<br>
><br>
> At what moisture level (in the whole seed) do you see a drop off<br>
> in emissions performance when burned in the Jiko Safi?<br>
> Is it easy for the users to tell when the seeds are dry enough?<br>
><br>
> ...about biofuel;<br>
> Part of the idea was to provide electricity or shaft power to<br>
> communities or business with a Lister engine on Jatropha oil.<br>
> I remember visiting Carl Bielenberg's workshop where he was doing<br>
> the testing.<br>
> Any success stories there or is diesel always cheaper without a<br>
> carbon consideration?<br>
><br>
> Alex<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 20/01/2013 9:23 AM, Jonathan Otto wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hey Richard,<br>
><br>
> Not sure why you feel my briquetting education has been<br>
> neglected, since that kind of fuel is not mentioned in any of<br>
> my postings; but I certainly subscribe to Dean's comment: we<br>
> all have a lot to learn about such alternative fuels. I would<br>
> add: and the stoves that burn them in a truly clean<br>
> way. Which brings up the question: if a briquette or<br>
> pellet is burned in an open charcoal brazier, do we have a<br>
> clean energy source? To put in another way, there are no<br>
> 'clean' or 'dirty' fuels; it's combination of fuel and stove<br>
> that must be evaluated together for emissions and other<br>
> performance parameters.<br>
><br>
> My densified fuels question to Otto the Senior or anyone else<br>
> who can enlighten me concerning the logic of pelletizing<br>
> Jatropha presscake. If farmers grow their<br>
> own energy-dense, uniform-sized fuel, i.e., whole Jatropha<br>
> seed, why complicate matters by processing that ready-to-use<br>
> fuel into another fuel? No matter how efficient the<br>
> pelletizing process, it must require time and energy. Why not<br>
> burn these seeds directly in a micro gasifier stove, such as<br>
> our jiko safi?<br>
><br>
> Let me try to head off some likely comments. I know that there<br>
> are companies in many African and Asian countries engaged in<br>
> commercial scale production of Jatropha (and other biofuel<br>
> crops) for export of biodeisel. Land grabbing and other<br>
> nefarious activities of some of these players are obscene, as<br>
> once again the global north exploits tropical countries for<br>
> cheap/free land and cheap labor to meet its own needs.<br>
><br>
> Yes, those Jatropha oil export ventures produce presscake as a<br>
> by-product which they pelletize and market for fuel. And yes,<br>
> some smaller operations in a few countries like Uganda, are<br>
> trying to make a go of producing Jatropha-based biofuels for<br>
> local and regional energy markets. But for all the publicity,<br>
> most of it appropriately negative, in the 'food vs. fuel'<br>
> analysis, there's a lot more to Jatropha than current attempts<br>
> to put the oil in European cars and jet engines.<br>
><br>
> Far apart from all these recent commercial Jatropha ventures,<br>
> many of which are unprofitable for reasons we can discuss<br>
> another time if anyone's interested, are many millions of<br>
> farmers in over 110 countries who use Jatropha as a living<br>
> hedge and for medicianl uses. Seems it's grown in every<br>
> frost-free area of the world. I've found it from Cuba --<br>
> it's native to the neo-tropics -- to Mali, which has thousands<br>
> of kilometers of hedges, to Bhutan where villagers were<br>
> obliged to pay a Jatropha tax to monks for lighting in<br>
> floating wick lamps.<br>
><br>
> My guess is that over 99% of all Jatropha seed fall to the<br>
> ground and rot, unused. (One study in a district of Tanzania<br>
> where Jatropha seed is a traded commodity found that only 6%<br>
> of seed is harvested.) As we all search for renewable,<br>
> sustainably harvested biomass to fuel our favorite stoves, can<br>
> we afford to overlook seeds of this ubiquitous, multi-use<br>
> species?<br>
><br>
> The point of importuning my stove list colleagues on a fine<br>
> Sunday morning is to interest other stove makers to look at<br>
> Jatropha and other energy-rich seeds as a category of<br>
> fuel worth consideration for new stove designs. We are<br>
> modestly pleased with the performance of the jiko safi, but we<br>
> also know that some of you with far deeper understanding of<br>
> gasification and far more experience in stove design could<br>
> produce a much better model. Anyone want to take up this<br>
> challenge?<br>
><br>
> Over to you,<br>
><br>
> Jonathan<br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org">rstanley@legacyfound.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org">rstanley@legacyfound.org</a>><br>
> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:46:53 -0600<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Dear Ottos,<br>
> Seems you both need training in briquettemaking . Jon you know<br>
> where to go in nchi yeti but Otto, where are you based?<br>
> Seriously, the blends you are finding smelly smokey etc<br>
> suggests that you get in touch with any of hundreds of others<br>
> who can train you.<br>
> Richard Stanley<br>
> Monte Rico,<br>
> Guatemala<br>
><br>
> Sent from my iPhone<br>
><br>
> On Jan 19, 2013, at 18:10, Otto Formo<br>
> <<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Josh and Jonathan (Otto),<br>
><br>
> Yes, we are talking about the presscake of Jatropha and it<br>
> was processed into pellets localy in Zambia, quite easily<br>
> and with "simple" tools - (no waste of energy)<br>
><br>
> We had the same experience as your colleagues using<br>
> briquettes made out of ricehusks and sawdust.<br>
> They even started to glow like charcoal early in the<br>
> gasification process and produced smoky and smouldery<br>
> combustion.<br>
><br>
> Thast why we prefer to use pellets of best possible quality.<br>
><br>
> I hope you are correct about the gasification of jatropha<br>
> pellets will destroy the phorbol esters and other<br>
> problematic compounds instead of emitting them.<br>
> Iam a bit worried about the forced draft units, while they<br>
> seems to blow some parts of the ash and gases into the<br>
> open air or room.<br>
><br>
> May be the char from Jatropha could have a pestecide<br>
> effect as well?<br>
><br>
> Otto<br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 18:23:35 -0500<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com">yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com">yeah.yeah.right.on@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Otto - FYI jatropha presscake (the mealy material left<br>
> over once oil has been pressed out of the seeds) can be<br>
> directly pelletized without further processing. It's<br>
> pretty easy to pelletize, even with a small, cheaper (e.g.<br>
> benchtop) pellet press. The mealy presscake still contains<br>
> some of the oil (think coffee grounds) and it pelletizes<br>
> well without worry over moisture content or having to use<br>
> a binder.<br>
><br>
> The pellets burn in a TLUD similar to wood or other<br>
> pellets, at least by visual observation and temperature<br>
> recording. I have colleagues that have tried to make<br>
> cooking briquettes with jatropha seedcake and had a very<br>
> smoky, smouldery combustion. I believe there are concerns<br>
> of some potentially toxic emissions (phorbol esters, other<br>
> compounds?). I have not tested the emissions from TLUD<br>
> charring jatropha pellets, but there was no visible smoke<br>
> and the gasifier seemed to operate fine as it does with<br>
> other types of pellets. It would be interesting to know if<br>
> firing jatropha pellets in a TLUD destroys the phorbol<br>
> esters and other problematic compounds instead of emitting<br>
> them.<br>
><br>
> I first tried to char un-pelletized jatropha seedcake in<br>
> the TLUD - because it is mealy like coffee grounds no<br>
> draft could get through and it was a total fail - lots of<br>
> smoke poured out! This brought the fire department to our<br>
> Colorado backyard during a fire ban. Whoops.<br>
><br>
> Also FYI char made from TLUD jatropha pellets performed<br>
> similar for herbicide uptake from simulated natural water<br>
> as chars made in the same way from pine pellets, bagasse<br>
> pellets, and bamboo pieces.<br>
><br>
> Josh<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Otto<br>
> <<a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Otto,<br>
><br>
> Whole Jatropha seeds can be picked from hedges on-farm<br>
> and used directly in our jiko safi gasification stove<br>
> without any further effort (except maybe for some sun<br>
> drying if harvested during a damp season) ... the most<br>
> decentralized, efficient sustainable fuel system I can<br>
> imagine.<br>
><br>
> Sure, urban jiko safi users will need to buy their<br>
> fuel seeds, so a commercial system for transport and<br>
> retail sale of seed will be needed eventually, likely<br>
> mimicking some aspects of the charcoal trade. But it's<br>
> just whole, unprocessed seed.<br>
><br>
> Concerning pelletized Jatropha fuel, I would like to<br>
> understand the advantages you find in going through<br>
> the costs and effort (including energy losses) of<br>
> processing seeds to expel the oil, then probably<br>
> milling the press cake and shells (?) to uniform<br>
> size/texture, then extruding or otherwise forming the<br>
> mixture into pellets, and finally distribute the fuel,<br>
> some of which will go back to the same farmers that<br>
> grew the Jatropha seed in the first place?<br>
><br>
> I know there are technical advantages to gasification<br>
> of uniform-sized pellets, but it seems to me that<br>
> round or ovoid shaped seeds like Jatropha, castor (I<br>
> know, more poisons!), shea or croton megalocarpus<br>
> provide this same advantage, without going through the<br>
> pelletization process.What am I missing?<br>
><br>
> Otto, the minor<br>
><br>
> P.S. It's too late for me to retire 'on time'<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:23:37 +0100<br>
><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Jonathan,<br>
><br>
> We have got some samples of pelletized jatropha shells<br>
> and seeds from Zambia, after the oil has been<br>
> extracted and we feel that is the way forward.<br>
><br>
> We will update you on the progress, so you will be<br>
> albe to retire "on time".................:)<br>
> We are not so worried about PM in natural draft<br>
> gasifiers, but thanks for the concern.<br>
><br>
> Otto........................<br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 09:03:35 -0500<br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Otto-<br>
><br>
> You 'would guess' wrong.<br>
><br>
> 'We should be very careful advising people' about such<br>
> unsupported conclusions.<br>
><br>
> The challenges of gasifying oils found in<br>
> seeds, notably the oils of Jatropha seed, in a<br>
> cookstove are far different from working with<br>
> most pellets formulations.<br>
><br>
> I keenly look forward to news of your all-fuel stoves<br>
> that will handle J seeds, and the results of your<br>
> tests. I sincerely hope you develop this soon, so I<br>
> can finally retire in peace.<br>
><br>
> Oh, and when you do tests, please include particulates<br>
> in your emissions testing, so we can finally end all<br>
> this hand wringing about 'these types of fuel'.<br>
><br>
> >From the cheeky other Otto,<br>
><br>
> Jonathan<br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 23:23:48 +0100<br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Dear stovers,<br>
><br>
> I would guess that "any" gasifier will burn jatropha<br>
> seeds or pellets cleanly and efficient, as long as the<br>
> moisture content are less than 10%.<br>
><br>
> We have in the pipeline to test a new design of<br>
> natural draft gasifiers, using jatropha seeds and<br>
> pellets, for emmissions and toxcic fumes.<br>
><br>
> We should be very carefull adviceing people using<br>
> these types of fuel, before it has been carefully<br>
> tested by independent institutions.<br>
><br>
> Have a nice weekend.<br>
><br>
> Otto (not the famous one..........:)<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:19:11 -0500<br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jatropha fruit as fuel?<br>
><br>
> Dear Jonathan<br>
><br>
> I am interested in the general layout and dimensions<br>
> of a stove that will burn the seeds well. Are you<br>
> sharing at this time anything regarding the design?<br>
><br>
> Thanks<br>
> Crispin<br>
> ++++++++<br>
><br>
> Dear Joyce and stovers all,<br>
><br>
> My regrets for not responding to this request 6 months<br>
> ago. I admit that it got lost in my messy inbox<br>
> which I have now reduced from 6000 messages to a mere<br>
> 2400, and in the process uncovered Joyce's email.<br>
><br>
> Burning Jatropha seeds whole or in briquettes in open<br>
> cooking arrangements is a bad idea. It produces a<br>
> smoky, smelly fire and probably exposes cooks to toxic<br>
> emissions. I even question burning Jatropha oil in<br>
> lamps in enclosed areas for the same reason. Maybe<br>
> others know of emissions studies.<br>
> [snip]<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________ Stoves<br>
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> --<br>
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> PhD Candidate, Environmental Engineering<br>
> University of Colorado-Boulder<br>
> Visiting Researcher, North Carolina State University<br>
><br>
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> Aqueous Solutions<br>
> <a href="http://www.aqsolutions.org" target="_blank">www.aqsolutions.org</a> <<a href="http://www.aqsolutions.org/" target="_blank">http://www.aqsolutions.org/</a>><br>
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<br>
Message: 8<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:19:29 -0600<br>
From: Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Need help in designing a small refrigerator for<br>
rural huts.<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:50FC7B81.3010106@ilstu.edu">50FC7B81.3010106@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dear Anil,<br>
<br>
On 1/17/2013 10:19 PM, nari phaltan wrote:<br>
><br>
> We would like to explore the possibility of using the heat of lanstove<br>
> (1500 W, flue gas temperature ~ 350degrees Celsius) to also run a<br>
> batchwise absorption refrigerator unit which can cool a box of 1.5' X<br>
> 1.5' X 1.5' to about 10^0 C for 10-15 hours. In the old times there<br>
> were Icyballs but they used Ammonia/water mixture which is hazardous.<br>
> I believe many new mixtures may have come now.<br>
><br>
The issue is the cooling unit. There are a variety of ways to provide<br>
the heat.<br>
<br>
Will you proceed with this refrigeration R&D? I am interested also.<br>
And want a unit that can cool the milk from the evening milking of<br>
cows. That milk is often not suitable for pick-up (spoils) the next<br>
morning along with the milk from the morning milking of cows.<br>
<br>
But what we need is refrigeration assistance, not heat assistance.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
> We would like to explore the possibility of using the heat of lanstove<br>
> (1500 W, flue gas temperature ~ 350degrees Celsius) to also run a<br>
> batchwise absorption refrigerator unit which can cool a box of 1.5' X<br>
> 1.5' X 1.5' to about 10^0 C for 10-15 hours. In the old times there<br>
> were Icyballs but they used Ammonia/water mixture which is hazardous.<br>
> I believe many new mixtures may have come now.<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 9<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:35:31 -0400<br>
From: "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
To: "Ron Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a>,<br>
<a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a>, <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
Message-ID: <1FB4ED3D06844CC28B858A5302DEB6D1@usera594fda0bf><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear Ron<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
To: Kevin<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a> ; <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> ; <a href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a> ; Kevin Chisholm ; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 6:34 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
<br>
Kevin, Crispin and list:<br>
<br>
This is to also answer the two following messages from yourselves. I did not find them helpful - as they assume the only economics relate to the carbon credit.<br>
<br>
# Exactly!! The question was about the cost of carbon credits. That was the purpose of the question... to get some insight into the cost of Carbon Credits. It was you, in your 16 Jan posting, who introduced the Carbon Credit sub-thread.<br>
<br>
They assume nothing (repeat nothing) about the value to the user in outyear ag benefits.<br>
<br>
# EXACTLY!! They assume nothing beyond the question. However, it is an attempt to start somewhere and determine if there is any chance that Carbon Credits will be helpful in encouraging the use of TLUD or other char making stoves, and if the carbon credits will influence people to use biochar. As I see it now, the value of carbon credits, at the very best is trivial, but in reality, is insignificant. The Carbon Credits seem to sell for about $6 per tonne CO2 equivalent (trivial) but after the middlemen, brokers and field inspectors and speculators make their money, there would be an insignificant payment per tonne CO2 equivalent actually reaching the Farmer (ie, the Golden Goose who is supposed to lay the eggs that hatch into carbon credits :-)<br>
<br>
Tell me how farmers in the world will react to news that (for example) land worth zero today can be brought up to a productivity level the same as other existing ag land nearby (same rainfall etc.) Let's say that land can, after applying biochar be worth $500/ha rather than $0/ha. If those farmers have a discount rate of 5% or 50% will make a big difference on how much they will be willing to spend per tonne of biochar and how many tonnes per ha (which could be in rows or holes - not uniformly scattered). Which discount rate are you using for these out-year benefit computations?<br>
You can't prove biochar is worthless by talking to this list only about credits of $6/tonne CO2.<br>
<br>
# I am not trying to prove that biochar is worthless. I was simply trying to find out what Carbon Credits were worth. Thanks to Crispin, I found out. Those interested in determining the worth of biochar can apply whatever evaluation concepts are important to them. Large multinational agribusiness corporations with Accountants and MBA on their Staff will look at discount rates and IRR's, while the small Farmer will probably say "If I spend $100 on biochar, how long before I will get my money back?"<br>
<br>
More below.<br>
# Yes, indeed!! :-)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
From: "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>, <a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a>, <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>, <a href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:29:17 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
?<br>
Dear Ron<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
Cc: Kevin Chisholm<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:16 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
<br>
Kevin and list: See below<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
From: "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:34:01 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
?<br>
Dear Ron<br>
<br>
You mention $16 and $27 per tonne CO2 equivalent. I presume you are referring to a payment that one would receive when showing that one has earned a tonne of CO2 equivalent.<br>
[RWL: Yup - examples only - hopefully larger.]<br>
# Prices seem to vary all over the place to purchase carbon credits. What is the present price that a biochar producer could expect to receive as a carbon Credit for the biochar he produced? It is one thing to hope for future price increases for Carbon Credits, but is that realistic? Would you perhaps have a graph that shows the price trend for CarbonCrdits that you could share with the Lists?<br>
<br>
[RWL2a: See my opening remarks. The price trend for credits has nothing to do with anything under discussion - especially about black carbon.]<br>
# KC2a: I am not talking about Black Carbon. I am simply talking about the value to the Farmer of carbon Credits. You feel that CC prices will increase... I was trying to see if you had any rational basis for stating that you hope the price of CC's will increase. A graph showing an "uptrend" from a low price would suggest further CC increases, and would certainly suggest that your hope had a rational basis.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
1: Where would one apply to get such payments? [RWL: Anywhere one can. Numerous stove promoters on this list already getting some.]<br>
<br>
# OK!! Can you tell the Stoves and Biochar Lists where they could apply to get Carbon Credit payments for the biochar they produce?<br>
[RWL2b: I am not in that business. If I were them I probably would keep that answer to myself - but feel free to ask stove sellers (which are maybe only for displaced CO2 - not char.]<br>
# KC2b: You quoted prices, and "hoped for prices" for CC's. I know you are not in that business. However, you make frequent reference and allusion to the potential for CC's to support the use of biochar. You should not offer such encouragement unless you are able to point to sources where biochar users can actually apply for such credits. As a strong promoter of CC's as being a support to the widespread introduction of biochar, you should be telling the List where they can go to get CC support for their proposed biochar projects, rather than keeping such information secret. Now you introduce the bombshell that maybe CC's will not be available to char!!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2: Who would be eligible to receive such payments? [RWL: Anyone who can prove they deserve them.]<br>
# That makes sense.<br>
<br>
<br>
3: What conditions must be met, before the payments would actually be made? [RWL: Whatever is acceptable to the presumably willing buyer of the credits.]<br>
# That does not make sense at all! Surely there must be some rules or standards that must be met to ensure that the Carbon Credits are real. If not, then the entire system is open to fraud.<br>
[RWL2c: I have made no comments about an open market - and those don't yet exist. Of course, when we have organized markets accepting char as a vehicle, there will then be stringent rules. IBI and others are developing them now. The point in this dialog (referring back to $16 and $11) is that biochar from stoves can have a higher value (because of black carbon improvements) than biochar from some other sources.]<br>
<br>
# KC2c1: If there is no open market for Carbon Credits now, then the only "sure thing" for stove and biochar interests to focus on is making better stoves that rise on their own merits, and to show Farmers how they can make more money with biochar, rather than counting on something that may, or may not, be real in the future (CC's) to make stoves and biochar economic.<br>
<br>
# KC2c2 Note that it is not the biochar from stoves that yields black carbon improvements, but stove design and operation. Crispin has designed and developed stoves with excellent combustion characteristics that have remarkably low BC emissions, and they do not produce biochar. Black Carbon is controlled by good combustion, not by the production of biochar. Black Carbon, biochar production and Carbon Credits are three very different and separate and distinct issues.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I am concerned that with the state of the World Economy, Governments will lose their interest in longer term Climate Change Concerns, and would put their priorities on addressing short term and more immediate concerns. [RWL: We disagree.]<br>
# What is your basis for disagreement? Kyoto seems to be dead in the water. At the last meeting, I believe that most Governments said "We will do something about controlling CO2 emissions sometime after 2020, but we will not say what we will do, and when we will do it." Is this a reasonable summation? If you feel not, what would you feel is?<br>
[RWL2d: I am more of an optimist than you. Arctic ice totally disappearing in a year or two could be the wake-up call.<br>
No yours is not a reasonable summation from my perspective. A lot of people are working to promote a meaningful price, And we don't need all governments to agree; I have hopes for a number of EU countries. And you didn't do more than repeat an opinion- which happens to differ from mine. Obviously I can't give proof of anything happening in the next few years - and that is why we should agree to disagree.]<br>
<br>
# KC2d: I am not looking for either optimism or pessimism, but rather, the simple reality of the matter. Total disappearance of Arctic Ice in a year or two is a gross exaggeration. Do you know how cold it gets up there over teh winter? :-) The Governments of the world have already had their wake-up call with respect to increased open water in the Arctic Summer, and they appear to have decided to do little or nothing about it until sometime after 2020. You flatly state that my summation is not reasonable, but you refuse to be helpful by providing a summation which you feel is reasonable. Of course, we do not need all Governments to agree to support Kyoto... just enough to make a difference. Without the US, Canada and China, it is hard for the others to make a significant difference. My summation of Kyoto is not an "opinion"... it is a statement of observed facts. I strongly disagree with your proposal that "... we should agree to disagree..." I would propose that we seek to determin<br>
e the reality of the situation.<br>
<br>
<br>
What are your views on the future of Carbon Credit payments? [RWL: They will slowly creep up in price (maybe in time to do some good). Biochar credits from char-making stoves look like the easiest to sell of any.<br>
# The recent report on the important impact of Black Carbon on climate change would seem to reduce the relative importance of the CO2 parameter. As I understand it, most "generally accepted Climate Change Models" were calibrated under the assumption that BC was a minor or insignificant factor, and the model factors were adjusted to relate observed temperature rise to anthropogenic CO2. Now that BC could have a "forcing effect" perhaps 2/3 as great as the present forcing effect attributed to CO2, recalibrating the models to reflect the increased importance of BC will inherently diminish the importance of CO2 as a factor in CAGW (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming). Accordingly, it would seem reasonable to project a significant decline in "Carbon Credit Revenue" to biochar producers. Does this seem reasonable? If not, why not?<br>
[RWL2e: Re sentence #1: Tami Bond, in the quoted article (which this started out to be about) put major emphasis on CO2.<br>
<br>
#KC2e1: And well she might! The fundamental thrust of the Report was to show that BC was a significant factor in GW or Climate Change. She (and her co-Authors) certainly do this. They were not investing the importance of CO2... they were investigating the importance of BC, and they simply acced what the IPCC said about CO2 importance.<br>
<br>
Re your second sentence, all the models lump effects together under CO2e, not simply CO2.<br>
<br>
#KC2e2: This is where Tami's work can have a very disturbing effect on Climate Change Modeling. Very disturbing. It throws a huge monkey wrench into the works. More specifically, since the effects that were all lumped together as CO2e (ie, CO2 equivalent), without giving proper weight to the importance of BC, then all such modelling will have to be "re-visited", to include the effects of BC. More specifically still, all such models were "trained" without significant recognition of the importance of BC, and various factors were developed to make the models fit the observations. BC, as "the new kid on the Climate Change Modeling BBlock", is a real "game changer." The BC data presently has a large degree of uncertainty... when further research reduces present uncertainty, instead of being merely "the New Kid on the Block", BC might actually be "The Elephant in the Room." Also of possibly great significance is the potential that this BC work may lend significant support to the Svendmar<br>
k Hypothesis. See: <a href="http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis" target="_blank">http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis</a><br>
and <a href="http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/" target="_blank">http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/</a> for further elaboration.<br>
<br>
Re the last "reasonable" - You have it all wrong. I presume because you are still a climate denier and are looking for every way possible to make your denier view seem more reasonable.<br>
# KC2e3: Rather than playing "The Denier card", I would suggest that you could advance your position more if you provided palpable fact that showed where my views are wrong.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
# Concerning carbon credits for biochar from char-making stoves, would you have an approximate idea of the value of the carbon credits per tonne for such biochar? Would you have an approximate idea of the annual tonnage of biochar that is sold in connection with a carbon credit payment.<br>
[RWL2f: Re #1, See my opening remarks. To repeat - there is no single value appropriate to all buyers and sellers of credits.<br>
<br>
# KC2f1: Of course not!!<br>
1: There is the price that the "End User" pays "The Retailer" for Carbon Credits<br>
2: There is the price that "The Retailer" buys the CC's from the "manufacturer or generator or producer of CC's"<br>
3: There is the "net price" that the producer of CC's receives, after deduction of required inspection, testing, and approval costs.<br>
In addition, there are are probably "volume discounts" the reflect the cost of conducting the transaction. Clearly, the unit cost of carbon credits to offset a single trip in an airplane will be greater than the unit cost of a large CC purchase by a coal fired power plant.<br>
<br>
This is a voluntary market - not a tax. If we were talking a subsidy, I think $100/tonne char ($35/tonne CO2) would make a huge difference - and is totally justified on strictly moral/ethical grounds (thinking of all our obligations to our children and grand-children and to developing countries. The US will benefit a lot more from paying such a subsidy<br>
<br>
# KC2f2: Given the state of the US Economy, such a subsidy is very unlikely. The US is already more than $44 billion over its permissable debt ceiling. See: <a href="http://www.usdebtclock.org/" target="_blank">http://www.usdebtclock.org/</a><br>
<br>
- as the economy will suffer much worse from ocean rise, varied rainfall, size of storms, etc.<br>
<br>
# KC2f3: The US Agricultural Economy suffered seriously from drought last year, and is likely to suffer greatly during this coming crop year. See: <a href="http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202" target="_blank">http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202</a><br>
Are you saying that CarbonCredits, (and greatly increased use of biochar) could reverse this drought situation and bring things back to "normal"? If the US had been using biochar in the 1920's, could this have prevented the "Dust Bowl of the 1930's"?<br>
<br>
Re #2 sentence - I have no idea and doubt anyone does. I do hear people saying that char is in short supply. Such data will be partly available with an open market.<br>
<br>
# KC2f4: Is it possible that char is in short supply simply because there is insufficient information to justify its widespread use, and potential producers are (sensibly) cautious about getting into production because of lack of evidence of an adequate market? Or, perhaps the biochar producers are selling most oftheir biochar into "niche markets", where they can get more for it, than the "Farm level" potential Customer can afford to pay?<br>
<br>
Your whole line of questioning has nothing to do with BC from stoves and whether BC should be an important reason for near term action to promote cleaner char-making stoves.]<br>
<br>
# KC2f5: No. My entire line of questioning was around the cost of carbon credits. Remember, of course, that it was you who introduced Carbon Credits into this thread.<br>
<br>
<br>
# As we all know, "adequate carbon credit payments" could lead to a huge increase in biochar production and use. However, if it is unreasonable to believe that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon, then stoves and biochar must rise on their own inherent merits, without such support. Holding onto a false hope can only result in disappointment.<br>
[RWL2g: Re #1 - We agree. The reason that this is not happening is that too many do not see the ethics and morality of moving faster (on this I presume we disagree)<br>
<br>
# KC2g1: Another, more likely, explanation is that the direct economics of biochar are not apparent to the Farmer.<br>
Re#2 - Agree with last part of sentence - and not with the first on timing.<br>
<br>
# KC2g2: Perhaps you are right. If you have a rational basis for your belief that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon, please share with the List. That "good news" could very well precipitate a rush into biochar.<br>
<br>
Re #3 - Disagree. Assuming failure, as you seem to be doing, is a self-fulfilling prophecy - to stop all progress and accept ocean rise, etc with costs much greater than the costs of credits. Ron]<br>
<br>
# KC2g3: I do not assume failure... all I warn of is that if "adequate CC payments will not be available, then biochar, and stove systems that depended on them for their financial success, will have to find another justification to assure viability. "<br>
<br>
# KC2g4: I remind you that it is totally impossible for CC's to prevent ocean rise. Totally, absolutely, and utterly impossible.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
<br>
<br>
Ron]<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks very much.<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:02 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
<br>
Dean and list:<br>
<br>
Tami's is one huge report (232 pages in a major journal sounds like a world record). I spent quite a few hours today trying to grasp the topic - and know now I had better give up. The Black Carbon problem is going to take experts like Tami to bring its importance into the world of stoves. There may be an argument that if a stove can prove $16/.tonne CO2, you might have a chance at proving up to (or even more than?) $27/tonne CO2e, if you are in the right place on the globe. (These numbers based on numbers given in terms of W/sqm.) I recommend casual readers getting quickly to the figures at the extreme end of the report/paper. There is a lot of useful numercal geographic and sources comparisons there.<br>
<br>
As Crispin has indicated the intentional large scale annual burning of large parts of Africa look like a good place to instead harvest and get useful energy and biiochar instead (through stoves and more).<br>
<br>
Congratulations on arranging to have Tami be the ETHOS key-noter. I think she may have been at the first!<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
From: "Dean Still" <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:05:27 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
Dear Friends,<br>
<br>
<br>
Tami is the keynote speaker at ETHOS this year and it will be interesting to hear what she's been learning!<br>
<br>
<br>
All Best,<br>
<br>
<br>
Dean<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear Friends<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A new and I would say major major paper on the atmospheric impact of black carbon particles is available for download. We know at least two of the authors here on ?Stoves?. Profs Tami Bond and Philip Hopke (the aethalometer builder who said he was a minor contributor) are frequent contributors on the subject of emissions testing.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The paper is important because it is the first really detailed examination of the effects of atmospheric heating by Black Carbon (BC).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The abstract is at <a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract" target="_blank">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract</a> and the paper is at<br>
<br>
<a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf" target="_blank">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It is not behind a paywall but it is large (40 MB). Times to get your hands dirty with BC!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Crispin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
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<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
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<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
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<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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<br>
Message: 10<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:18:25 -0500<br>
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Stoves] Handy boiling point calculator<br>
Message-ID: <035e01cdf77d$9a9a5270$cfcef750$@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Dear Friends<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This is very useful.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Save it!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
y = 4-08x2 - 0.0036x + 99.996<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
X = your altitude in meters.<br>
<br>
Y = the local boiling point (at standard air pressure)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If you know your altitude, it will give you the 'standard' boiling<br>
temperature.<br>
<br>
If you know the local boiling point, you can work backwards to get the<br>
altitude where you are standing.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Excel cell contents:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=99.996-0.0036*Altitude+4*10^-8*Altitude<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
where 'Altitude' is the cell in which the altitude is located.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Crispin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 11<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:24:26 -0500<br>
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
Message-ID: <03a001cdf77e$70175650$504602f0$@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear Kevin?n?All<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A short message from Cecil about the price of charcoal in Indonesia and Cambodia (very low income countries).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This does not help tilt the equation towards doings something other than selling it as fuel (if it will burn).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I hold out hope however that water purification with small amounts of char from stoves will produce a health benefit that is appreciated by rural and urban families alike. Not much is needed and filtering is cheaper than boiling (if it can be shown to work just as well).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Crispin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Firewood sells in the villages of Yagyakarta Province for 400 R per kg. In town it sells for about 1000 per kg. Charcoal sells for about 2,500 R per kg or +/- 25 cents up to 2,500,000 R/ 10 000 R per $ = $250 per ton<br>
<br>
In Battambang [Cambodia] charcoal sells for 800 to 1200 Riels per kg - say 1000 Riels which comes to +/- 25 cents per kg or $250 per ton. In Phnom Penh charcoal sells for up to 1,400 Riels per kg in 1 kg bags or 1,400,000 Reils per ton / 4,000 Reils per $ = $350.<br>
<br>
[Cecil]<br>
<br>
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Message: 12<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:26:00 -0800<br>
From: Dean Still <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a>, <a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CA+tShZsUu5qxd7UuOJY+EsPE334Bkrv2ZuUi5TdrJ1Ls=a==<a href="mailto:dw@mail.gmail.com">dw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
The involuntary market can pay higher amounts per ton of avoided carbon. A<br>
stove project I admire in Central America just sold credits at around $15<br>
per ton. When saving tons per year the earnings are meaningful and provide<br>
a support for the endeavor.<br>
<br>
Dean<br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Kevin <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> **<br>
> Dear Ron<br>
><br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> *From:* <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
> *To:* Kevin <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
> *Cc:* <a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a> ; <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> ;<br>
> <a href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a> ; Kevin Chisholm<<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>>; Crispin<br>
> Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
> *Sent:* Friday, January 18, 2013 6:34 PM<br>
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
><br>
> Kevin, Crispin and list:<br>
><br>
> This is to also answer the two following messages from yourselves. I<br>
> did not find them helpful - as they assume the only economics relate to the<br>
> carbon credit.<br>
><br>
> # Exactly!! The question was about the cost of carbon credits. That was<br>
> the purpose of the question... to get some insight into the cost of Carbon<br>
> Credits. It was you, in your 16 Jan posting, who introduced the Carbon<br>
> Credit sub-thread.<br>
><br>
> They assume nothing (repeat nothing) about the value to the user in<br>
> outyear ag benefits.<br>
><br>
> # EXACTLY!! They assume nothing beyond the question. However, it is an<br>
> attempt to start somewhere and determine if there is any chance that Carbon<br>
> Credits will be helpful in encouraging the use of TLUD or other char making<br>
> stoves, and if the carbon credits will influence people to use biochar. As<br>
> I see it now, the value of carbon credits, at the very best is trivial, but<br>
> in reality, is insignificant. The Carbon Credits seem to sell for about $6<br>
> per tonne CO2 equivalent (trivial) but after the middlemen, brokers and<br>
> field inspectors and speculators make their money, there would be an<br>
> insignificant payment per tonne CO2 equivalent actually reaching the Farmer<br>
> (ie, the Golden Goose who is supposed to lay the eggs that<br>
> hatch into carbon credits :-)<br>
><br>
> Tell me how farmers in the world will react to news that (for example)<br>
> land worth zero today can be brought up to a productivity level the same as<br>
> other existing ag land nearby (same rainfall etc.) Let's say that land<br>
> can, after applying biochar be worth $500/ha rather than $0/ha. If those<br>
> farmers have a discount rate of 5% or 50% will make a big difference on how<br>
> much they will be willing to spend per tonne of biochar and how many tonnes<br>
> per ha (which could be in rows or holes - not uniformly scattered).<br>
> Which discount rate are you using for these out-year benefit computations?<br>
> You can't prove biochar is worthless by talking to this list only<br>
> about credits of $6/tonne CO2.<br>
><br>
> # I am not trying to prove that biochar is worthless. I was simply trying<br>
> to find out what Carbon Credits were worth. Thanks to Crispin, I found out.<br>
> Those interested in determining the worth of biochar can apply whatever<br>
> evaluation concepts are important to them. Large multinational agribusiness<br>
> corporations with Accountants and MBA on their Staff will look at discount<br>
> rates and IRR's, while the small Farmer will probably say "If I spend $100<br>
> on biochar, how long before I will get my money back?"<br>
><br>
> More below.<br>
> # Yes, indeed!! :-)<br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> *From: *"Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
> *To: *<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>, <a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a>,<br>
> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>, <a href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
> *Sent: *Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:29:17 PM<br>
> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
><br>
><br>
> Dear Ron<br>
><br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> *From:* <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> *Cc:* Kevin Chisholm <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:16 AM<br>
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
><br>
> Kevin and list: See below<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> *From: *"Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
> *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<br>
> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:34:01 PM<br>
> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
><br>
><br>
> Dear Ron<br>
><br>
> You mention $16 and $27 per tonne CO2 equivalent. I presume you are<br>
> referring to a payment that one would receive when showing that one has<br>
> earned a tonne of CO2 equivalent.<br>
> *[RWL: Yup - examples only - hopefully larger.]*<br>
> **<br>
><br>
> *# Prices seem to vary all over the place to purchase carbon credits.<br>
> What is the present price that a biochar producer could expect to receive<br>
> as a carbon Credit for the biochar he produced? It is one thing to hope for<br>
> future price increases for Carbon Credits, but is that realistic? Would you<br>
> perhaps have a graph that shows the price trend for CarbonCrdits that you<br>
> could share with the Lists?*<br>
><br>
><br>
> * [RWL2a: See my opening remarks. The price trend for credits<br>
> has nothing to do with anything under discussion - especially about black<br>
> carbon.]*<br>
> **<br>
><br>
> *# KC2a: I am not talking about Black Carbon. I am simply talking about<br>
> the value to the Farmer of carbon Credits. You feel that CC prices will<br>
> increase... I was trying to see if you had any rational basis for stating<br>
> that you hope the price of CC's will increase. A graph showing an "uptrend"<br>
> from a low price would suggest further CC increases, and would certainly<br>
> suggest that your hope had a rational basis.*<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> 1: Where would one apply to get such payments? *[RWL: Anywhere one<br>
> can. Numerous stove promoters on this list already getting some.]*<br>
> **<br>
> *# OK!! Can you tell the Stoves and Biochar Lists where they could apply<br>
> to get Carbon Credit payments for the biochar they produce?*<br>
><br>
> *[RWL2b: I am not in that business. If I were them I probably<br>
> would keep that answer to myself - but feel free to ask stove sellers<br>
> (which are maybe only for displaced CO2 - not char.]*<br>
> **<br>
><br>
> *# KC2b: You quoted prices, and "hoped for prices" for CC's. I know you<br>
> are not in that business. However, you make frequent reference and allusion<br>
> to the potential for CC's to support the use of biochar. You should not<br>
> offer such encouragement unless you are able to point to sources where<br>
> biochar users can actually apply for such credits. As a strong promoter of<br>
> CC's as being a support to the widespread introduction of biochar, you<br>
> should be telling the List where they can go to get CC support for their<br>
> proposed biochar projects, rather than keeping such information secret. Now<br>
> you introduce the bombshell that maybe CC's will not be available to char!!<br>
> *<br>
><br>
> **<br>
> **<br>
><br>
><br>
> 2: Who would be eligible to receive such payments? *[RWL: Anyone who<br>
> can prove they deserve them.]*<br>
> **<br>
><br>
> *# That makes sense. *<br>
><br>
> 3: What conditions must be met, before the payments would actually be<br>
> made? *[RWL: Whatever is acceptable to the presumably willing buyer of<br>
> the credits.]*<br>
> **<br>
><br>
> *# That does not make sense at all! Surely there must be some rules or<br>
> standards that must be met to ensure that the Carbon Credits are real. If<br>
> not, then the entire system is open to fraud.*<br>
><br>
> *[RWL2c: I have made no comments about an open market - and<br>
> those don't yet exist. Of course, when we have organized markets accepting<br>
> char as a vehicle, there will then be stringent rules. IBI and others are<br>
> developing them now. The point in this dialog (referring back to $16 and<br>
> $11) is that biochar from stoves can have a higher value (because of black<br>
> carbon improvements) than biochar from some other sources.]*<br>
> **<br>
> *# KC2c1: If there is no open market for Carbon Credits now, then the<br>
> only "sure thing" for stove and biochar interests to focus on is making<br>
> better stoves that rise on their own merits, and to show Farmers how they<br>
> can make more money with biochar, rather than counting on something that<br>
> may, or may not, be real in the future (CC's) to make stoves and biochar<br>
> economic. *<br>
> **<br>
> *# KC2c2 Note that it is not the biochar from stoves that yields black<br>
> carbon improvements, but stove design and operation. Crispin has designed<br>
> and developed stoves with excellent combustion characteristics that have<br>
> remarkably low BC emissions, and they do not produce biochar. Black Carbon<br>
> is controlled by good combustion, not by the production of biochar. Black<br>
> Carbon, biochar production and Carbon Credits are three very different and<br>
> separate and distinct issues.*<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I am concerned that with the state of the World Economy, Governments will<br>
> lose their interest in longer term Climate Change Concerns, and would put<br>
> their priorities on addressing short term and more immediate concerns. *[RWL:<br>
> We disagree.]*<br>
> **<br>
><br>
> *# What is your basis for disagreement? Kyoto seems to be dead in the<br>
> water. At the last meeting, I believe that most Governments said "We will<br>
> do something about controlling CO2 emissions sometime after 2020, but we<br>
> will not say what we will do, and when we will do it." Is this a reasonable<br>
> summation? If you feel not, what would you feel is?*<br>
><br>
> *[RWL2d: I am more of an optimist than you. Arctic ice<br>
> totally disappearing in a year or two could be the wake-up call.<br>
> No yours is not a reasonable summation from my perspective. A lot of<br>
> people are working to promote a meaningful price, And we don't need all<br>
> governments to agree; I have hopes for a number of EU countries. And you<br>
> didn't do more than repeat an opinion- which happens to differ from mine.<br>
> Obviously I can't give proof of anything happening in the next few years -<br>
> and that is why we should agree to disagree.*]<br>
><br>
> *# KC2d*:* I am not looking for either optimism or pessimism, but rather,<br>
> the simple reality of the matter. Total disappearance of Arctic Ice in a<br>
> year or two is a gross exaggeration. Do you know how cold it gets up there<br>
> over teh winter? :-) The Governments of the world have already had their<br>
> wake-up call with respect to increased open water in the Arctic Summer, and<br>
> they appear to have decided to do little or nothing about it until sometime<br>
> after 2020. You flatly state that my summation is not reasonable, but you<br>
> refuse to be helpful by providing a summation which you feel is reasonable.<br>
> Of course, we do not need all Governments to agree to support Kyoto... just<br>
> enough to make a difference. Without the US, Canada and China, it is hard<br>
> for the others to make a significant difference. My summation of Kyoto is<br>
> not an "opinion"... it is a statement of observed facts.** I strongly<br>
> disagree with your proposal that "... we should agree to disagree..." I<br>
> would propose that we seek to determine the reality of the situation.<br>
> *<br>
><br>
> **<br>
><br>
> What are your views on the future of Carbon Credit payments? *[RWL:<br>
> They will slowly creep up in price (maybe in time to do some good).<br>
> Biochar credits from char-making stoves look like the easiest to sell of<br>
> any.*<br>
> **<br>
><br>
> *# The recent report on the important impact of Black Carbon on climate<br>
> change would seem to reduce the relative importance of the CO2 parameter.<br>
> As I understand it, most "generally accepted Climate Change Models" were<br>
> calibrated under the assumption that BC was a minor or insignificant<br>
> factor, and the model factors were adjusted to relate observed temperature<br>
> rise to anthropogenic CO2. Now that BC could have a "forcing effect"<br>
> perhaps 2/3 as great as the present forcing effect attributed to CO2,<br>
> recalibrating the models to reflect the increased importance of BC will<br>
> inherently diminish the importance of CO2 as a factor in CAGW (Catastrophic<br>
> Anthropogenic Global Warming). Accordingly, it would seem reasonable to<br>
> project a significant decline in "Carbon Credit Revenue" to biochar<br>
> producers. Does this seem reasonable? If not, why not?*<br>
><br>
> *[RWL2e: Re sentence #1: Tami Bond, in the quoted article<br>
> (which this started out to be about) put major emphasis on CO2.*<br>
> **<br>
> *#KC2e1: And well she might! The fundamental thrust of the Report was to<br>
> show that BC was a significant factor in GW or Climate Change. She (and her<br>
> co-Authors) certainly do this. They were not investing the importance of<br>
> CO2... they were investigating the importance of BC, and they simply acced<br>
> what the IPCC said about CO2 importance.*<br>
> **<br>
> * Re your second sentence, all the models lump effects together under<br>
> CO2e, not simply CO2. *<br>
> **<br>
> *#KC2e2: This is where Tami's work can have a very disturbing effect on<br>
> Climate Change Modeling. Very disturbing. It throws a huge monkey wrench<br>
> into the works. More specifically, since the effects that were all lumped<br>
> together as CO2e (ie, CO2 equivalent), without giving proper weight to the<br>
> importance of BC, then all such modelling will have to be "re-visited", to<br>
> include the effects of BC. More specifically still, all such models were<br>
> "trained" without significant recognition of the importance of BC, and<br>
> various factors were developed to make the models fit the observations. BC,<br>
> as "the new kid on the Climate Change Modeling BBlock", is a real "game<br>
> changer." The BC data presently has a large degree of uncertainty... when<br>
> further research reduces present uncertainty, instead of being merely "the<br>
> New Kid on the Block", BC might actually be "The Elephant in the Room."<br>
> Also of possibly great significance is the potential that this BC work may<br>
> lend significant support to the Svendmark Hypothesis. See:<br>
> <a href="http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis" target="_blank">http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis</a> *<br>
> *and<br>
> <a href="http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/" target="_blank">http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/</a> for<br>
> further elaboration.*<br>
> **<br>
> *Re the last "reasonable" - You have it all wrong. I presume because you<br>
> are still a climate denier and are looking for every way possible to make<br>
> your denier view seem more reasonable.*<br>
> **<br>
><br>
> *# KC2e3: Rather than playing "The Denier card", I would suggest that you<br>
> could advance your position more if you provided palpable fact that showed<br>
> where my views are wrong.*<br>
><br>
> **<br>
> **<br>
> *# Concerning carbon credits for biochar from char-making stoves, would<br>
> you have an approximate idea of the value of the carbon credits per tonne<br>
> for such biochar? Would you have an approximate idea of the annual tonnage<br>
> of biochar that is sold in connection with a carbon credit payment.*<br>
><br>
> * [RWL2f: Re #1, See my opening remarks. To repeat - there is<br>
> no single value appropriate to all buyers and sellers of credits. *<br>
> **<br>
> *# KC2f1: Of course not!! *<br>
> *1: There is the price that the "End User"* *pays "The Retailer" for<br>
> Carbon Credits*<br>
> *2: There is the price that "The Retailer" buys the CC's from the<br>
> "manufacturer or generator or producer of CC's"*<br>
> *3: There is the "net price" that the producer of CC's receives, after<br>
> deduction of required inspection, testing, and approval costs.*<br>
> *In addition, there are are probably "volume discounts" the reflect the<br>
> cost of conducting the transaction. Clearly, the unit cost of carbon<br>
> credits to offset a single trip in an airplane will be greater than the<br>
> unit cost of a large CC purchase by a coal fired power plant.*<br>
> **<br>
> * This is a voluntary market - not a tax. If we were talking a subsidy,<br>
> I think $100/tonne char ($35/tonne CO2) would make a huge difference - and<br>
> is totally justified on strictly moral/ethical grounds (thinking of all<br>
> our obligations to our children and grand-children and to developing<br>
> countries. ** The US will benefit a lot more from paying such a subsidy*<br>
> **<br>
> *# KC2f2: Given the state of the US Economy, such a subsidy is very<br>
> unlikely. The US is already more than $44 billion over its permissable debt<br>
> ceiling. See: <a href="http://www.usdebtclock.org/*" target="_blank">http://www.usdebtclock.org/*</a><br>
> **<br>
> * - as the economy will suffer much worse from ocean rise, varied<br>
> rainfall, size of storms, etc.**<br>
> *<br>
> *# KC2f3: The US Agricultural Economy suffered seriously from drought<br>
> last year, and is likely to suffer greatly during this coming crop year.<br>
> See:<br>
> <a href="http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202*" target="_blank">http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202*</a><br>
> *Are you saying that CarbonCredits, (and greatly increased use of<br>
> biochar) could reverse this drought situation and bring things back to<br>
> "normal"? If the US had been using biochar in the 1920's, could this have<br>
> prevented the "Dust Bowl of the 1930's"?*<br>
> * *<br>
> * Re #2 sentence - I have no idea and doubt anyone does. I do hear<br>
> people saying that char is in short supply. Such data will be partly<br>
> available with an open market.*<br>
> **<br>
> *# KC2f4: Is it possible that char is in short supply simply because<br>
> there is insufficient information to justify its widespread use, and<br>
> potential producers are (sensibly) cautious about getting into production<br>
> because of lack of evidence of an adequate market? Or, perhaps the biochar<br>
> producers are selling most oftheir biochar into "niche markets", where they<br>
> can get more for it, than the "Farm level" potential Customer can afford to<br>
> pay? *<br>
><br>
> * Your whole line of questioning has nothing to do with BC from stoves<br>
> and whether BC should be an important reason for near term action to<br>
> promote cleaner char-making stoves.*]<br>
><br>
> *# KC2f5: No. My entire line of questioning was around the cost of carbon<br>
> credits. Remember, of course, that it was you who introduced Carbon Credits<br>
> into this thread.<br>
> *<br>
><br>
> **<br>
> **<br>
> *# As we all know, "adequate carbon credit payments" could lead to a<br>
> huge increase in biochar production and use. However, if it is unreasonable<br>
> to believe that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon,<br>
> then stoves and biochar must rise on their own inherent merits, without<br>
> such support. Holding onto a false hope can only result in disappointment.<br>
> *<br>
><br>
> *[RWL2g: Re #1 - We agree. The reason that this is not<br>
> happening is that too many do not see the ethics and morality of moving<br>
> faster (on this I presume we disagree)*<br>
> **<br>
> *# KC2g1: Another, more likely, explanation is that the direct economics<br>
> of biochar are not apparent to the Farmer.<br>
> Re#2 - Agree with last part of sentence - and not with the<br>
> first on timing.*<br>
><br>
> *# KC2g2: Perhaps you are right. If you have a rational basis for your<br>
> belief that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon,<br>
> please share with the List. That "good news" could very well precipitate a<br>
> rush into biochar.*<br>
><br>
> * Re #3 - Disagree. Assuming failure, as you seem to be<br>
> doing, is a self-fulfilling prophecy - to stop all progress and accept<br>
> ocean rise, etc with costs much greater than the costs of credits.<br>
> Ron]<br>
> *<br>
> *# KC2g3: I do not assume failure... all I warn of is that if "adequate<br>
> CC payments will not be available, then biochar, and stove systems that<br>
> depended on them for their financial success, will have to find another<br>
> justification to assure viability. "*<br>
> **<br>
> *# KC2g4: I remind you that it is totally impossible for CC's to prevent<br>
> ocean rise. Totally, absolutely, and utterly impossible.*<br>
><br>
> Best wishes,<br>
><br>
> Kevin<br>
><br>
> **<br>
> **<br>
> *Best wishes,*<br>
> **<br>
> *Kevin*<br>
><br>
><br>
> *Ron]*<br>
><br>
> Thanks very much.<br>
><br>
> Kevin<br>
><br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> *From:* <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:02 PM<br>
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
><br>
> Dean and list:<br>
><br>
> Tami's is one huge report (232 pages in a major journal sounds like a<br>
> world record). I spent quite a few hours today trying to grasp the topic -<br>
> and know now I had better give up. The Black Carbon problem is going to<br>
> take experts like Tami to bring its importance into the world of stoves.<br>
> There may be an argument that if a stove can prove $16/.tonne CO2, you<br>
> might have a chance at proving up to (or even more than?) $27/tonne CO2e,<br>
> if you are in the right place on the globe. (These numbers based on<br>
> numbers given in terms of W/sqm.) I recommend casual readers getting<br>
> quickly to the figures at the extreme end of the report/paper. There is a<br>
> lot of useful numercal geographic and sources comparisons there.<br>
><br>
> As Crispin has indicated the intentional large scale annual burning of<br>
> large parts of Africa look like a good place to instead harvest and get<br>
> useful energy and biiochar instead (through stoves and more).<br>
><br>
> Congratulations on arranging to have Tami be the ETHOS key-noter. I<br>
> think she may have been at the first!<br>
><br>
> Ron<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> *From: *"Dean Still" <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>><br>
> *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<br>
> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:05:27 PM<br>
> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
><br>
> Dear Friends,<br>
><br>
> Tami is the keynote speaker at ETHOS this year and it will be interesting<br>
> to hear what she's been learning!<br>
><br>
> All Best,<br>
><br>
> Dean<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<br>
> <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Dear Friends****<br>
>><br>
>> ****<br>
>><br>
>> A new and I would say major major paper on the atmospheric impact of<br>
>> black carbon particles is available for download. We know at least two of<br>
>> the authors here on ?Stoves?. Profs Tami Bond and Philip Hopke (the<br>
>> aethalometer builder who said he was a minor contributor) are frequent<br>
>> contributors on the subject of emissions testing.****<br>
>><br>
>> ****<br>
>><br>
>> The paper is important because it is the first really detailed<br>
>> examination of the effects of atmospheric heating by Black Carbon (BC). *<br>
>> ***<br>
>><br>
>> ****<br>
>><br>
>> The abstract is at<br>
>> <a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract" target="_blank">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract</a> and the<br>
>> paper is at ****<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf****" target="_blank">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf****</a><br>
>><br>
>> ****<br>
>><br>
>> It is not behind a paywall but it is large (40 MB). Times to get your<br>
>> hands dirty with BC!****<br>
>><br>
>> ****<br>
>><br>
>> Regards****<br>
>><br>
>> Crispin****<br>
>><br>
>> ****<br>
>><br>
>> ****<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>><br>
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Message: 13<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:42:51 -0500<br>
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] is this new?<br>
Message-ID: <03a501cdf781$041d66d0$0c583470$@<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Dear Marc and Ron and All interested in air flows<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This is a response to questions about air and Marc's tube.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Here is an old photo of secondary air entering the combustion chamber of a<br>
Vesto pushing the flame to the centre. This accomplishes the following:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Keeps the fire away from the wall, reducing the temperature it has to<br>
survive (a lot)<br>
<br>
Keeps the flame going<br>
<br>
Not allowing it to spread to one side away from the smoke on the other side<br>
that might otherwise 'get away'.<br>
<br>
Provides turbulent mixing of flame, hot secondary air and smoke<br>
<br>
Allows for preheating to a significant degree (250-500 C)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
cid:image001.jpg@01CDF756.FE0F8310<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Here is an example (hard to see of course because it is a still taken from a<br>
video) of the spinning of the flame caused by the shaped grate at the<br>
bottom.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
cid:image006.jpg@01CDF756.FE0F8310<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The fire is circular because it is spinning rapidly, though pushed to the<br>
side by the way the fuel happened to be sitting. The spin adds turbulence<br>
without a fan and assists in keeping the flame away from the combustion<br>
chamber wall.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Here is a Vesto burning switchgrass pellets operating as TLUD, showing that<br>
there is nothing special about a TLUD in the sense of it having to operate<br>
in a particular fashion. The air flow through the fuel is reduced by the<br>
fuel and it operates as a TLUD. The secondary air is send across the surface<br>
to keep a deck of flame going at the height of the holes. This obviates the<br>
need for adding a circular disk at the top to 'keep the flame going'. Adding<br>
a 'concentrator' as Paul calls it takes more material and moves the fire too<br>
far away from the heat of the pyrolysis bed leading to unwanted flame-outs<br>
from time to time. A major issue with all pyrolysing TLUD's. It is simply<br>
not necessary. Just keep the fire near the fuel. This also provides<br>
additional vertical space for the flame to finish burning before getting to<br>
a cold pot surface.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Here is a really cool picture of a Vesto burning walnut shells in TLUD mode.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
cid:image009.jpg@01CDF756.FE0F8310<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally, here is a photo of a Vesto cutaway showing the inside parts in<br>
their correct positons.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
cid:image010.jpg@01CDF756.FE0F8310<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The primary air controller is the ring with holes in it. When the handle is<br>
moved to the side the holes are closed.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Crispin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 14<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:49:58 -0500 (EST)<br>
From: <a href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com">Carefreeland@aol.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:35f7e.1299b5b8.3e2e06d6@aol.com">35f7e.1299b5b8.3e2e06d6@aol.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Alex,<br>
I know a piece of property well that would benefit from this<br>
treatment. It would have been a city park by now if not for a trace of arsenic,<br>
crankcase oil and diesel fuel. It was the old clean hard filled gravel pit I<br>
used to work off of. I think much of the contamination is leaching in from<br>
the neighbors property which was not filled so clean. The property is for<br>
sale in prime territory.<br>
<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
In a message dated 1/20/2013 5:33:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,<br>
<a href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a> writes:<br>
<br>
Dan,<br>
It is being studied widely. Everything from pesticides, PCB's and<br>
miscelaneous hydrocarbons to specific heavy metals. Biochar gets compared straight<br>
up with Granular Activated Carbons, with some added agronomic benefits.<br>
That is where it could scale up in the near term.<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
On 20/01/2013 12:12 AM, _Carefreeland@aol.com_<br>
(mailto:<a href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com">Carefreeland@aol.com</a>) wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
I wonder if anyone has tried to clean up contaminated land with biochar?<br>
What effect would it have on heavy metals or oil based contaminants? Lots<br>
of prime real estate worthless because of trace contaminants.<br>
<br>
Dan Dimiduk<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 15<br>
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:06:31 +0700<br>
From: Marc Pare <<a href="mailto:mpare@gatech.edu">mpare@gatech.edu</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] is this new?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAPJQZbwAP4K3w4mvJOFGKDR34kO0bM1J_KTdCL8b7UB-bx7egg@mail.gmail.com">CAPJQZbwAP4K3w4mvJOFGKDR34kO0bM1J_KTdCL8b7UB-bx7egg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
That cutaway is beautiful! Great example of "let the product speak for<br>
itself"<br>
<br>
Since seeing counterflow in action, I understand exactly what you're<br>
describing with the air flows.<br>
<br>
I didn't understand your emphasis on keeping the flame near the bed with a<br>
"descending burner" until this paragraph:<br>
<br>
The secondary air is send across the surface to keep a deck of flame going<br>
at the height of the holes. This obviates the need for adding a circular<br>
disk at the top to ?keep the flame going?. Adding a ?concentrator? as Paul<br>
calls it takes more material and moves the fire too far away from the heat<br>
of the pyrolysis bed leading to unwanted flame-outs from time to time.<br>
<br>
<br>
I've seen these instabilities quite often in small-scale pyrolyzers. Great<br>
to see a practical measure to prevent their tendency to "smoke bomb".<br>
<br>
What's on the "to-do" list for this class of design, Crispin? Are you<br>
looking to push it into other applications? Apply the principles to improve<br>
existing design? (like you mentioned with advancing the Anglo SupraNova)<br>
<br>
Marc Par?<br>
B.S. Mechanical Engineering<br>
Georgia Institute of Technology | Universit? de Technologie de Compi?gne<br>
<br>
my cv, etc. | <a href="http://notwandering.com" target="_blank">http://notwandering.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<br>
<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Dear Marc and Ron and All interested in air flows****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> This is a response to questions about air and Marc?s tube.****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> Here is an old photo of secondary air entering the combustion chamber of a<br>
> Vesto pushing the flame to the centre. This accomplishes the following:***<br>
> *<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> Keeps the fire away from the wall, reducing the temperature it has to<br>
> survive (a lot)****<br>
><br>
> Keeps the flame going****<br>
><br>
> Not allowing it to spread to one side away from the smoke on the other<br>
> side that might otherwise ?get away?.****<br>
><br>
> Provides turbulent mixing of flame, hot secondary air and smoke****<br>
><br>
> Allows for preheating to a significant degree (250-500 C)****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> [image: cid:image001.jpg@01CDF756.FE0F8310]****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> Here is an example (hard to see of course because it is a still taken from<br>
> a video) of the spinning of the flame caused by the shaped grate at the<br>
> bottom.****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> [image: cid:image006.jpg@01CDF756.FE0F8310]****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> The fire is circular because it is spinning rapidly, though pushed to the<br>
> side by the way the fuel happened to be sitting. The spin adds turbulence<br>
> without a fan and assists in keeping the flame away from the combustion<br>
> chamber wall.****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> Here is a Vesto burning switchgrass pellets operating as TLUD, showing<br>
> that there is nothing special about a TLUD in the sense of it having to<br>
> operate in a particular fashion. The air flow through the fuel is reduced<br>
> by the fuel and it operates as a TLUD. The secondary air is send across the<br>
> surface to keep a deck of flame going at the height of the holes. This<br>
> obviates the need for adding a circular disk at the top to ?keep the flame<br>
> going?. Adding a ?concentrator? as Paul calls it takes more material and<br>
> moves the fire too far away from the heat of the pyrolysis bed leading to<br>
> unwanted flame-outs from time to time. A major issue with all pyrolysing<br>
> TLUD?s. It is simply not necessary. Just keep the fire near the fuel. This<br>
> also provides additional vertical space for the flame to finish burning<br>
> before getting to a cold pot surface.****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> Here is a really cool picture of a Vesto burning walnut shells in TLUD<br>
> mode.****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> [image: cid:image009.jpg@01CDF756.FE0F8310]****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> Finally, here is a photo of a Vesto cutaway showing the inside parts in<br>
> their correct positons.****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> [image: cid:image010.jpg@01CDF756.FE0F8310]****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> The primary air controller is the ring with holes in it. When the handle<br>
> is moved to the side the holes are closed.****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> Regards****<br>
><br>
> Crispin****<br>
><br>
> ** **<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
> <a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 16<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 22:23:02 -0500<br>
From: Alex English <<a href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] is this new?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:50FCB496.4030702@kingston.net">50FCB496.4030702@kingston.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Crispin,<br>
Its been a while since I saw the Vesto. It looks from the pictures like<br>
there are secondary air holes all the way up the central tube. Is that<br>
current?<br>
Seems like the top rows would just be adding tramp air (unemployed air).<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
On 20/01/2013 9:42 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
><br>
> Dear Marc and Ron and All interested in air flows<br>
><br>
> This is a response to questions about air and Marc's tube.<br>
><br>
> Here is an old photo of secondary air entering the combustion chamber<br>
> of a Vesto pushing the flame to the centre. This accomplishes the<br>
> following:<br>
><br>
> Keeps the fire away from the wall, reducing the temperature it has to<br>
> survive (a lot)<br>
><br>
> Keeps the flame going<br>
><br>
> Not allowing it to spread to one side away from the smoke on the other<br>
> side that might otherwise 'get away'.<br>
><br>
> Provides turbulent mixing of flame, hot secondary air and smoke<br>
><br>
> Allows for preheating to a significant degree (250-500 C)<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 17<br>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:45:58 -0400<br>
From: "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
Message-ID: <EE0684DE3F5E4240B63873223AA1F15C@usera594fda0bf><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
Dear Dean<br>
<br>
Could you please confirm if the $15 carbon credit is per ton of CO2 avoided, OR if it is per ton of C avoided.<br>
<br>
Also, could you please elaborate a bit on the difference between the "Involuntary" and the "Voluntary" market? Am I correct in assuming that the "involuntary" market happens when there is legislation in place requiring CO2 emitters to purchase Carbon Credits, while the "Voluntary" market happens when people (such as Air Travellers) voluntarily purchase carbon credits?<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: Dean Still<br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a> ; <a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:26 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
<br>
The involuntary market can pay higher amounts per ton of avoided carbon. A stove project I admire in Central America just sold credits at around $15 per ton. When saving tons per year the earnings are meaningful and provide a support for the endeavor.<br>
<br>
<br>
Dean<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Kevin <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear Ron<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
To: Kevin<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a> ; <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> ; <a href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a> ; Kevin Chisholm ; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 6:34 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
<br>
Kevin, Crispin and list:<br>
<br>
This is to also answer the two following messages from yourselves. I did not find them helpful - as they assume the only economics relate to the carbon credit.<br>
<br>
# Exactly!! The question was about the cost of carbon credits. That was the purpose of the question... to get some insight into the cost of Carbon Credits. It was you, in your 16 Jan posting, who introduced the Carbon Credit sub-thread.<br>
<br>
They assume nothing (repeat nothing) about the value to the user in outyear ag benefits.<br>
<br>
# EXACTLY!! They assume nothing beyond the question. However, it is an attempt to start somewhere and determine if there is any chance that Carbon Credits will be helpful in encouraging the use of TLUD or other char making stoves, and if the carbon credits will influence people to use biochar. As I see it now, the value of carbon credits, at the very best is trivial, but in reality, is insignificant. The Carbon Credits seem to sell for about $6 per tonne CO2 equivalent (trivial) but after the middlemen, brokers and field inspectors and speculators make their money, there would be an insignificant payment per tonne CO2 equivalent actually reaching the Farmer (ie, the Golden Goose who is supposed to lay the eggs that hatch into carbon credits :-)<br>
<br>
Tell me how farmers in the world will react to news that (for example) land worth zero today can be brought up to a productivity level the same as other existing ag land nearby (same rainfall etc.) Let's say that land can, after applying biochar be worth $500/ha rather than $0/ha. If those farmers have a discount rate of 5% or 50% will make a big difference on how much they will be willing to spend per tonne of biochar and how many tonnes per ha (which could be in rows or holes - not uniformly scattered). Which discount rate are you using for these out-year benefit computations?<br>
You can't prove biochar is worthless by talking to this list only about credits of $6/tonne CO2.<br>
<br>
# I am not trying to prove that biochar is worthless. I was simply trying to find out what Carbon Credits were worth. Thanks to Crispin, I found out. Those interested in determining the worth of biochar can apply whatever evaluation concepts are important to them. Large multinational agribusiness corporations with Accountants and MBA on their Staff will look at discount rates and IRR's, while the small Farmer will probably say "If I spend $100 on biochar, how long before I will get my money back?"<br>
<br>
More below.<br>
# Yes, indeed!! :-)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
From: "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>, <a href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</a>, <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>, <a href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:29:17 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Ron<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
Cc: Kevin Chisholm<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:16 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
<br>
Kevin and list: See below<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
From: "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>><br>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:34:01 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Ron<br>
<br>
You mention $16 and $27 per tonne CO2 equivalent. I presume you are referring to a payment that one would receive when showing that one has earned a tonne of CO2 equivalent.<br>
[RWL: Yup - examples only - hopefully larger.]<br>
# Prices seem to vary all over the place to purchase carbon credits. What is the present price that a biochar producer could expect to receive as a carbon Credit for the biochar he produced? It is one thing to hope for future price increases for Carbon Credits, but is that realistic? Would you perhaps have a graph that shows the price trend for CarbonCrdits that you could share with the Lists?<br>
<br>
[RWL2a: See my opening remarks. The price trend for credits has nothing to do with anything under discussion - especially about black carbon.]<br>
# KC2a: I am not talking about Black Carbon. I am simply talking about the value to the Farmer of carbon Credits. You feel that CC prices will increase... I was trying to see if you had any rational basis for stating that you hope the price of CC's will increase. A graph showing an "uptrend" from a low price would suggest further CC increases, and would certainly suggest that your hope had a rational basis.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
1: Where would one apply to get such payments? [RWL: Anywhere one can. Numerous stove promoters on this list already getting some.]<br>
<br>
# OK!! Can you tell the Stoves and Biochar Lists where they could apply to get Carbon Credit payments for the biochar they produce?<br>
[RWL2b: I am not in that business. If I were them I probably would keep that answer to myself - but feel free to ask stove sellers (which are maybe only for displaced CO2 - not char.]<br>
# KC2b: You quoted prices, and "hoped for prices" for CC's. I know you are not in that business. However, you make frequent reference and allusion to the potential for CC's to support the use of biochar. You should not offer such encouragement unless you are able to point to sources where biochar users can actually apply for such credits. As a strong promoter of CC's as being a support to the widespread introduction of biochar, you should be telling the List where they can go to get CC support for their proposed biochar projects, rather than keeping such information secret. Now you introduce the bombshell that maybe CC's will not be available to char!!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2: Who would be eligible to receive such payments? [RWL: Anyone who can prove they deserve them.]<br>
# That makes sense.<br>
<br>
<br>
3: What conditions must be met, before the payments would actually be made? [RWL: Whatever is acceptable to the presumably willing buyer of the credits.]<br>
# That does not make sense at all! Surely there must be some rules or standards that must be met to ensure that the Carbon Credits are real. If not, then the entire system is open to fraud.<br>
[RWL2c: I have made no comments about an open market - and those don't yet exist. Of course, when we have organized markets accepting char as a vehicle, there will then be stringent rules. IBI and others are developing them now. The point in this dialog (referring back to $16 and $11) is that biochar from stoves can have a higher value (because of black carbon improvements) than biochar from some other sources.]<br>
<br>
# KC2c1: If there is no open market for Carbon Credits now, then the only "sure thing" for stove and biochar interests to focus on is making better stoves that rise on their own merits, and to show Farmers how they can make more money with biochar, rather than counting on something that may, or may not, be real in the future (CC's) to make stoves and biochar economic.<br>
<br>
# KC2c2 Note that it is not the biochar from stoves that yields black carbon improvements, but stove design and operation. Crispin has designed and developed stoves with excellent combustion characteristics that have remarkably low BC emissions, and they do not produce biochar. Black Carbon is controlled by good combustion, not by the production of biochar. Black Carbon, biochar production and Carbon Credits are three very different and separate and distinct issues.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I am concerned that with the state of the World Economy, Governments will lose their interest in longer term Climate Change Concerns, and would put their priorities on addressing short term and more immediate concerns. [RWL: We disagree.]<br>
# What is your basis for disagreement? Kyoto seems to be dead in the water. At the last meeting, I believe that most Governments said "We will do something about controlling CO2 emissions sometime after 2020, but we will not say what we will do, and when we will do it." Is this a reasonable summation? If you feel not, what would you feel is?<br>
[RWL2d: I am more of an optimist than you. Arctic ice totally disappearing in a year or two could be the wake-up call.<br>
No yours is not a reasonable summation from my perspective. A lot of people are working to promote a meaningful price, And we don't need all governments to agree; I have hopes for a number of EU countries. And you didn't do more than repeat an opinion- which happens to differ from mine. Obviously I can't give proof of anything happening in the next few years - and that is why we should agree to disagree.]<br>
<br>
# KC2d: I am not looking for either optimism or pessimism, but rather, the simple reality of the matter. Total disappearance of Arctic Ice in a year or two is a gross exaggeration. Do you know how cold it gets up there over teh winter? :-) The Governments of the world have already had their wake-up call with respect to increased open water in the Arctic Summer, and they appear to have decided to do little or nothing about it until sometime after 2020. You flatly state that my summation is not reasonable, but you refuse to be helpful by providing a summation which you feel is reasonable. Of course, we do not need all Governments to agree to support Kyoto... just enough to make a difference. Without the US, Canada and China, it is hard for the others to make a significant difference. My summation of Kyoto is not an "opinion"... it is a statement of observed facts. I strongly disagree with your proposal that "... we should agree to disagree..." I would propose that we seek to dete<br>
rmine the reality of the situation.<br>
<br>
<br>
What are your views on the future of Carbon Credit payments? [RWL: They will slowly creep up in price (maybe in time to do some good). Biochar credits from char-making stoves look like the easiest to sell of any.<br>
# The recent report on the important impact of Black Carbon on climate change would seem to reduce the relative importance of the CO2 parameter. As I understand it, most "generally accepted Climate Change Models" were calibrated under the assumption that BC was a minor or insignificant factor, and the model factors were adjusted to relate observed temperature rise to anthropogenic CO2. Now that BC could have a "forcing effect" perhaps 2/3 as great as the present forcing effect attributed to CO2, recalibrating the models to reflect the increased importance of BC will inherently diminish the importance of CO2 as a factor in CAGW (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming). Accordingly, it would seem reasonable to project a significant decline in "Carbon Credit Revenue" to biochar producers. Does this seem reasonable? If not, why not?<br>
[RWL2e: Re sentence #1: Tami Bond, in the quoted article (which this started out to be about) put major emphasis on CO2.<br>
<br>
#KC2e1: And well she might! The fundamental thrust of the Report was to show that BC was a significant factor in GW or Climate Change. She (and her co-Authors) certainly do this. They were not investing the importance of CO2... they were investigating the importance of BC, and they simply acced what the IPCC said about CO2 importance.<br>
<br>
Re your second sentence, all the models lump effects together under CO2e, not simply CO2.<br>
<br>
#KC2e2: This is where Tami's work can have a very disturbing effect on Climate Change Modeling. Very disturbing. It throws a huge monkey wrench into the works. More specifically, since the effects that were all lumped together as CO2e (ie, CO2 equivalent), without giving proper weight to the importance of BC, then all such modelling will have to be "re-visited", to include the effects of BC. More specifically still, all such models were "trained" without significant recognition of the importance of BC, and various factors were developed to make the models fit the observations. BC, as "the new kid on the Climate Change Modeling BBlock", is a real "game changer." The BC data presently has a large degree of uncertainty... when further research reduces present uncertainty, instead of being merely "the New Kid on the Block", BC might actually be "The Elephant in the Room." Also of possibly great significance is the potential that this BC work may lend significant support to the Sven<br>
dmark Hypothesis. See: <a href="http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis" target="_blank">http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis</a><br>
and <a href="http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/" target="_blank">http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/</a> for further elaboration.<br>
<br>
Re the last "reasonable" - You have it all wrong. I presume because you are still a climate denier and are looking for every way possible to make your denier view seem more reasonable.<br>
# KC2e3: Rather than playing "The Denier card", I would suggest that you could advance your position more if you provided palpable fact that showed where my views are wrong.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
# Concerning carbon credits for biochar from char-making stoves, would you have an approximate idea of the value of the carbon credits per tonne for such biochar? Would you have an approximate idea of the annual tonnage of biochar that is sold in connection with a carbon credit payment.<br>
[RWL2f: Re #1, See my opening remarks. To repeat - there is no single value appropriate to all buyers and sellers of credits.<br>
<br>
# KC2f1: Of course not!!<br>
1: There is the price that the "End User" pays "The Retailer" for Carbon Credits<br>
2: There is the price that "The Retailer" buys the CC's from the "manufacturer or generator or producer of CC's"<br>
3: There is the "net price" that the producer of CC's receives, after deduction of required inspection, testing, and approval costs.<br>
In addition, there are are probably "volume discounts" the reflect the cost of conducting the transaction. Clearly, the unit cost of carbon credits to offset a single trip in an airplane will be greater than the unit cost of a large CC purchase by a coal fired power plant.<br>
<br>
This is a voluntary market - not a tax. If we were talking a subsidy, I think $100/tonne char ($35/tonne CO2) would make a huge difference - and is totally justified on strictly moral/ethical grounds (thinking of all our obligations to our children and grand-children and to developing countries. The US will benefit a lot more from paying such a subsidy<br>
<br>
# KC2f2: Given the state of the US Economy, such a subsidy is very unlikely. The US is already more than $44 billion over its permissable debt ceiling. See: <a href="http://www.usdebtclock.org/" target="_blank">http://www.usdebtclock.org/</a><br>
<br>
- as the economy will suffer much worse from ocean rise, varied rainfall, size of storms, etc.<br>
<br>
# KC2f3: The US Agricultural Economy suffered seriously from drought last year, and is likely to suffer greatly during this coming crop year. See: <a href="http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202" target="_blank">http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202</a><br>
Are you saying that CarbonCredits, (and greatly increased use of biochar) could reverse this drought situation and bring things back to "normal"? If the US had been using biochar in the 1920's, could this have prevented the "Dust Bowl of the 1930's"?<br>
<br>
Re #2 sentence - I have no idea and doubt anyone does. I do hear people saying that char is in short supply. Such data will be partly available with an open market.<br>
<br>
# KC2f4: Is it possible that char is in short supply simply because there is insufficient information to justify its widespread use, and potential producers are (sensibly) cautious about getting into production because of lack of evidence of an adequate market? Or, perhaps the biochar producers are selling most oftheir biochar into "niche markets", where they can get more for it, than the "Farm level" potential Customer can afford to pay?<br>
<br>
Your whole line of questioning has nothing to do with BC from stoves and whether BC should be an important reason for near term action to promote cleaner char-making stoves.]<br>
<br>
# KC2f5: No. My entire line of questioning was around the cost of carbon credits. Remember, of course, that it was you who introduced Carbon Credits into this thread.<br>
<br>
<br>
# As we all know, "adequate carbon credit payments" could lead to a huge increase in biochar production and use. However, if it is unreasonable to believe that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon, then stoves and biochar must rise on their own inherent merits, without such support. Holding onto a false hope can only result in disappointment.<br>
[RWL2g: Re #1 - We agree. The reason that this is not happening is that too many do not see the ethics and morality of moving faster (on this I presume we disagree)<br>
<br>
# KC2g1: Another, more likely, explanation is that the direct economics of biochar are not apparent to the Farmer.<br>
Re#2 - Agree with last part of sentence - and not with the first on timing.<br>
<br>
# KC2g2: Perhaps you are right. If you have a rational basis for your belief that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon, please share with the List. That "good news" could very well precipitate a rush into biochar.<br>
<br>
Re #3 - Disagree. Assuming failure, as you seem to be doing, is a self-fulfilling prophecy - to stop all progress and accept ocean rise, etc with costs much greater than the costs of credits. Ron]<br>
<br>
# KC2g3: I do not assume failure... all I warn of is that if "adequate CC payments will not be available, then biochar, and stove systems that depended on them for their financial success, will have to find another justification to assure viability. "<br>
<br>
# KC2g4: I remind you that it is totally impossible for CC's to prevent ocean rise. Totally, absolutely, and utterly impossible.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
<br>
<br>
Ron]<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks very much.<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:02 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
<br>
Dean and list:<br>
<br>
Tami's is one huge report (232 pages in a major journal sounds like a world record). I spent quite a few hours today trying to grasp the topic - and know now I had better give up. The Black Carbon problem is going to take experts like Tami to bring its importance into the world of stoves. There may be an argument that if a stove can prove $16/.tonne CO2, you might have a chance at proving up to (or even more than?) $27/tonne CO2e, if you are in the right place on the globe. (These numbers based on numbers given in terms of W/sqm.) I recommend casual readers getting quickly to the figures at the extreme end of the report/paper. There is a lot of useful numercal geographic and sources comparisons there.<br>
<br>
As Crispin has indicated the intentional large scale annual burning of large parts of Africa look like a good place to instead harvest and get useful energy and biiochar instead (through stoves and more).<br>
<br>
Congratulations on arranging to have Tami be the ETHOS key-noter. I think she may have been at the first!<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
From: "Dean Still" <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:05:27 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<br>
<br>
Dear Friends,<br>
<br>
<br>
Tami is the keynote speaker at ETHOS this year and it will be interesting to hear what she's been learning!<br>
<br>
<br>
All Best,<br>
<br>
<br>
Dean<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear Friends<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A new and I would say major major paper on the atmospheric impact of black carbon particles is available for download. We know at least two of the authors here on ?Stoves?. Profs Tami Bond and Philip Hopke (the aethalometer builder who said he was a minor contributor) are frequent contributors on the subject of emissions testing.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The paper is important because it is the first really detailed examination of the effects of atmospheric heating by Black Carbon (BC).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The abstract is at <a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract" target="_blank">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract</a> and the paper is at<br>
<br>
<a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf" target="_blank">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It is not behind a paywall but it is large (40 MB). Times to get your hands dirty with BC!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Crispin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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End of Stoves Digest, Vol 29, Issue 23<br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Art Donnelly<br>President SeaChar.Org<br>US Director, The Farm Stove Project<br>Proyecto Estufa Finca<br><a href="http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0" target="_blank"></a><br>
"SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"<br>