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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A>
; <A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
; <A title=biochar-production@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com">biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</A>
; <A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 21, 2013 7:19
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin
cc to three lists and Crispin)<BR><BR> I think we are making zero
progress in this dialog </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>KC: I
think we are in strong agreement on this point. :-)</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">so I will not
respond to most of what you have added below. If someone wishes more
from me on something that is new from Kevin, please let me know.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># I
am disappointed in what you chose to reply on, and what you ignored. I said
some very important stuff below, and you trivialized it by dismissed it
without consideration. For example:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
That the Bond Report may have a profoundly important effect on the
direction which "Climate Change Ameloriation" may take in the
future.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
That CO2 has probably been given undersevedly great blame for observed climate
change, and that as a consequence, Carbon Credits will be of less importance
and availability, and TLUD stoves and Biochar should not count on them for
support. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>* I
made one particularily strong statement : "</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>"#
KC2g4: I remind you that it is totally impossible for CC's to prevent ocean
rise. Totally, absolutely, and utterly impossible." May I assume, from your
lack of response to it, that you agree with it?</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>
1. You have misread what I said about arctic ice - the first
period of zero September ice will obviously only last a few days or
weeks. I continue to believe that the date to drop to zero volume
(meaning within a few percent) is in the next few years. Not worth
arguing about since that event is obviously so near, given the exponential
decay path Ice volume is on. The days of wintertime ice-freedom are
obviously many more years away.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"># What you
said was: "<STRONG>Arctic ice totally disappearing in a year or two could be
the wake-up call. " What I said in reply was: "Total disappearance
of Arctic Ice in a year or two is a gross exaggeration.
" This figure shows that even in september, there are about 4
million sq. km of sea ice now. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><IMG border=0
hspace=0 alt="" align=baseline
src="cid:32BF177171BE4D958AE29821E38FAA83@usera594fda0bf"></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Disappearance
of summer ice is one thing, but "total disappeaarance of Arctic ice in a year
or two..." is beyond reasonable imagination. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><BR></STRONG>
2. Your use of the terms Svensmark and "denier bomb" in <STRONG><FONT
face=Arial>KC2e2 and 3<I> </I></FONT></STRONG><FONT face=Arial>(below) is
worth </FONT>noting for other readers - who may not yet believe you could be
so opinionated against established science. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># The
IPCC "Climate Science" is NOT "established science", but rather, it is
"consensus science". Given the bombshell that BC might be, there may be a lot
of Climate Scientists who end up with a lot of egg on their face. It was you
who played "the denier card". I am a "pseodo-science denier" but a "true
science believer". CERN is in the process of conducting tests to confirm or
negate the Svensmark Hypothesis; it is rather premature of you to second-guess
the results of a study due out in about 2 years, especially in the light of
the BC Report,which definitely reduces the importancce of CO2 in climate
change.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> Sending
most on this list to denier groups like you cite is only going to help prove
my thesis that your opposition to carbon credits and biochar progress is due
to you views on CO2 and gases like BC (which this thread is supposed to be
about). </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># I
am in opposition to Carbon Credits because the way they are presently
structured, they are nothing more than a "CO2 Pollution permit" that
accomplishes absolutely nothing toward reducing atmospheric CO2 levels. For
example, if you generate say 1000 tonnes of Carbon credits with biochar, I can
buy them and then add 1000 tonnes of CO2 to the atmosphere, totally
neutralizing your good work.</STRONG> <STRONG>I am totally supportive of
biochar, in any application where the Farmer or grower using it gets a
positive and economically sound benefit from it. Tami et al wrote the BC
Report, which I think is good and responsible science; I am "going with their
flow" with respect to BC and its implications.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> I
recommend again the site "Skeptical Science" - and specifically <A
href="http://www.skepticalscience.com/cosmic-rays-and-global-warming.htm">http://www.skepticalscience.com/cosmic-rays-and-global-warming.htm</A>. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
That is a "Believer site" :-) I would put more weight on the CERN report, when
its results become available.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> It is
time for you to find another non-CO2 explanation ; the cosmic ray theory
doesn't stand up to the facts.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># Do
you reject the findings of the BC Report? It sure looks like "real science" to
me. Wait until the CERN study is complete... then we can finalize an opinion
based on fact and science, and not just mere theory or belief.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <BR>
3. I also call attention to others the way you answered me about
morality and ethics of climate change action in my comments 2f and 2g. I
am not surprised that you made zero response - and so am glad to give you
another chance.<BR><STRONG></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># In
2f; you say: "</STRONG><STRONG>If we were talking a subsidy, I think
$100/tonne char ($35/tonne CO2) would make a huge difference - and is
totally justified on strictly moral/ethical grounds (thinking of all our
obligations to our children and grand-children and to developing
countries. The US will benefit a lot more from paying such a
subsidy</STRONG> "<STRONG> </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>In my
opinion, given the state of the US Economy, and the pointless futility of
carbon credits, there is no way that the US can afford such payments, nor get
a reasonable benefit from them. Accordingly, I feel it is unethical of you to
hold out the false hope of $100/tonne carbon credits to potential biochar
producers and users.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># In
reply to my comment "<EM><FONT size=4>However, if it is unreasonable to
believe that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon, then
stoves and biochar must rise on their own inherent merits, without such
support. Holding onto a false hope can only result in
disappointment.</FONT></EM> ",</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG> you
say in 2g:, "</STRONG> <STRONG>[RWL2g: The reason
that this is not happening is that too many do not see the ethics and morality
of moving faster (on this I presume we disagree) " I replied:
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>"#
KC2g1: Another, more likely, explanation is that the direct economics of
biochar are not apparent to the Farmer." </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>I do
not believe it is fair to expect the farmer to lose money to help avoid
climate change.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
4. Last - your last sentence on stopping ocean rise. I would
rather listen to the views of Dr. James Hansen - and the urgency he is
giving. Note he is talking of 5 meters this century if we continue to do
nothing. I wonder who your authority is on being able to do
nothing?</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># If
you review my comment, you will see that I say nothing about being able to do
nothing. Basically, I am saying is that it is irrational to think that
Carbon Credits will reduce sea level rise. As outlined above, they are nothing
more than a "license to pollute with CO2" . If you think about it, you
will see that the best that CC's can do is hold CO2 levels constant, and they
cannot reduce CO2 levels to the 350 ppm advocated by Hansen. BTW... does
Hansen state that Carbon credits will actually reduce atmospheric CO2?
</STRONG></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Best
wishes,</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Kevin<BR></STRONG><BR>Ron<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR id=zwchr>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>From:
</B>"Kevin" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><BR><B>To: </B>"Ron Larson"
<rongretlarson@comcast.net><BR><B>Cc:
</B>biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com, stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org,
biochar-production@yahoogroups.com, "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott"
<crispinpigott@gmail.com><BR><B>Sent: </B>Sunday, January 20, 2013
4:35:31 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric Black
Carbon<BR><BR>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target=_blank>Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com"
target=_blank>biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A> ; <A
title=biochar-production@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-production@yahoogroups.com"
target=_blank>biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A
title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>Kevin Chisholm</A> ; <A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target=_blank>Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 18, 2013 6:34
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin,
Crispin and list:<BR><BR> This is to also answer the two
following messages from yourselves. I did not find them helpful - as
they assume the only economics relate to the carbon credit. </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=4># Exactly!! The question was about the cost of carbon credits. That
was the purpose of the question... to get some insight into the cost of
Carbon Credits.</FONT> <FONT size=4>It was you, in your 16 Jan posting, who
introduced the Carbon Credit sub-thread.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> They
assume nothing (repeat nothing) about the value to the user in outyear ag
benefits. </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=4># EXACTLY!! They assume nothing beyond the question. However, it is
an attempt to start somewhere and determine if there is any chance that
Carbon Credits will be helpful in encouraging the use of TLUD or other char
making stoves, and if the carbon credits will influence people to use
biochar. As I see it now, the value of carbon credits, at the very best is
trivial, but in reality, is insignificant. The Carbon Credits seem to sell
for about $6 per tonne CO2 equivalent (trivial) but after the middlemen,
brokers and field inspectors and speculators make their money, there would
be an insignificant payment per tonne CO2 equivalent actually reaching the
Farmer (ie, the Golden Goose who is supposed to lay the eggs that
hatch into carbon credits :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> Tell
me how farmers in the world will react to news that (for example) land worth
zero today can be brought up to a productivity level the same as other
existing ag land nearby (same rainfall etc.) Let's say that land
can, after applying biochar be worth $500/ha rather than $0/ha.
If those farmers have a discount rate of 5% or 50% will make a big
difference on how much they will be willing to spend per tonne of biochar
and how many tonnes per ha (which could be in rows or holes - not
uniformly scattered). Which discount rate are you using for these
out-year benefit computations? <BR> You can't prove
biochar is worthless by talking to this list only about credits of $6/tonne
CO2.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=4># I am not trying to prove that biochar is worthless. I was simply
trying to find out what Carbon Credits were worth. Thanks to Crispin, I
found out. Those interested in determining the worth of biochar can apply
whatever evaluation concepts are important to them. Large multinational
agribusiness corporations with Accountants and MBA on their Staff will
look at discount rates and IRR's, while the small Farmer will probably say
"If I spend $100 on biochar, how long before I will get my money
back?" </FONT><BR><BR>More below.<BR><FONT size=4># Yes, indeed!!
:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR id=zwchr>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>From:
</B>"Kevin" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><BR><B>To:
</B>rongretlarson@comcast.net, biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com,
stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org,
biochar-production@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Sent: </B>Thursday, January 17,
2013 10:29:17 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] New paper on atmospheric
Black Carbon<BR><BR>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target=_blank>Kevin Chisholm</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 17, 2013
12:16 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin and
list: See below<BR><BR>
<HR id=zwchr>
<B>From: </B>"Kevin" <<A href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR><B>To: </B>"Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:34:01 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves]
New paper on atmospheric Black Carbon<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>You mention $16 and $27 per tonne CO2 equivalent. I
presume you are referring to a payment that one would receive when showing
that one has earned a tonne of CO2 equivalent.<BR>
<B>[RWL: Yup - examples only - hopefully
larger.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4># Prices seem to vary
all over the place to purchase carbon credits. What is the present price
that a biochar producer could expect to receive as a carbon Credit for the
biochar he produced? It is one thing to hope for future price increases
for Carbon Credits, but is that realistic? Would you perhaps have a graph
that shows the price trend for CarbonCrdits that you could share with the
Lists?</FONT></EM></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
id=DWT441> </DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
[RWL2a: See my opening remarks. The price trend for
credits has nothing to do with anything under discussion - especially
about black carbon.]</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2a: I am not talking about Black
Carbon. I am simply talking about the value to the Farmer of carbon Credits.
You feel that CC prices will increase... I was trying to see if you had any
rational basis for stating that you hope the price of CC's will increase. A
graph showing an "uptrend" from a low price would suggest further CC
increases, and would certainly suggest that your hope had a rational
basis.</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
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<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
id=DWT440> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>1: Where would one apply to get such payments?
<B>[RWL: Anywhere one can. Numerous stove promoters on this
list already getting some.]</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><EM><FONT
id=DWT442 size=4># OK!! Can you tell the Stoves and Biochar Lists where
they could apply to get Carbon Credit payments for the biochar they
produce?</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2b: I am not in that business. If I were them I probably
would keep that answer to myself - but feel free to ask stove sellers
(which are maybe only for displaced CO2 - not
char.]</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2b: You quoted prices, and "hoped for
prices" for CC's. I know you are not in that business. However, you make
frequent reference and allusion to the potential for CC's to support the use
of biochar. You should not offer such encouragement unless you are able to
point to sources where biochar users can actually apply for such credits. As
a strong promoter of CC's as being a support to the widespread introduction
of biochar, you should be telling the List where they can go to get CC
support for their proposed biochar projects, rather than keeping such
information secret. Now you introduce the bombshell that maybe CC's will not
be available to char!!</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>2: Who would be eligible to receive such payments?
<B>[RWL: Anyone who can prove they deserve
them.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><FONT size=4><EM># That makes
sense.</EM></FONT> </STRONG>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>3: What conditions must be met, before the payments would
actually be made? <B>[RWL: Whatever is acceptable to the
presumably willing buyer of the credits.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT443 size=4># That does
not make sense at all! Surely there must be some rules or standards that
must be met to ensure that the Carbon Credits are real. If not, then the
entire system is open to fraud.</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2c: I have made no comments about an open market - and those
don't yet exist. Of course, when we have organized markets accepting
char as a vehicle, there will then be stringent rules. IBI and others
are developing them now. The point in this dialog (referring
back to $16 and $11) is that biochar from stoves can have a higher value
(because of black carbon improvements) than biochar from some other
sources.]</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2c1: If there is no open market for Carbon Credits now, then the only
"sure thing" for stove and biochar interests to focus on is making better
stoves that rise on their own merits, and to show Farmers how they can make
more money with biochar, rather than counting on something that may, or may
not, be real in the future (CC's) to make stoves and biochar
economic. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2c2 Note that it is not the biochar from stoves that
yields black carbon improvements, but stove design and operation.
Crispin has designed and developed stoves with excellent combustion
characteristics that have remarkably low BC emissions, and they do not
produce biochar. Black Carbon is controlled by good combustion, not by the
production of biochar. Black Carbon, biochar production and Carbon Credits
are three very different and separate and distinct issues.</STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>I am concerned that with the state of the World Economy,
Governments will lose their interest in longer term Climate Change
Concerns, and would put their priorities on addressing short term and more
immediate concerns. <B>[RWL: We
disagree.]</B></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT444 size=4># What is your
basis for disagreement? Kyoto seems to be dead in the water. At the last
meeting, I believe that most Governments said "We will do something about
controlling CO2 emissions sometime after 2020, but we will not say what we
will do, and when we will do it." Is this a reasonable summation? If you
feel not, what would you feel
is?</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2d: I am more of an optimist than you. Arctic
ice totally disappearing in a year or two could be the wake-up
call. <BR>No yours is not a reasonable summation from my
perspective. A lot of people are working to promote a
meaningful price, And we don't need all governments to
agree; I have hopes for a number of EU countries. And you didn't
do more than repeat an opinion- which happens to differ from mine.
Obviously I can't give proof of anything happening in the next few years -
and that is why we should agree to disagree.</B>]</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2d</STRONG>:<STRONG> I am not looking for either optimism or pessimism,
but rather, the simple reality of the matter. Total disappearance
of Arctic Ice in a year or two is a gross exaggeration. Do you know how
cold it gets up there over teh winter? :-) The Governments of the world have
already had their wake-up call with respect to increased open water in the
Arctic Summer, and they appear to have decided to do little or nothing about
it until sometime after 2020. You flatly state that my summation is not
reasonable, but you refuse to be helpful by providing a summation which you
feel is reasonable. Of course, we do not need all Governments to agree to
support Kyoto... just enough to make a difference. Without the US, Canada
and China, it is hard for the others to make a significant difference.
My summation of Kyoto is not an "opinion"... it is a statement of observed
facts.</STRONG><STRONG> I strongly disagree with your proposal
that "... we should agree to disagree..." I would propose that we seek
to determine the reality of the situation. <BR></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>What are your views on the future of Carbon Credit
payments? <B>[RWL: They will slowly creep up in price
(maybe in time to do some good). Biochar credits from
char-making stoves look like the easiest to sell of
any.</B></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial><B></B></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT445 size=4># The recent
report on the important impact of Black Carbon on climate change would
seem to reduce the relative importance of the CO2 parameter. As I
understand it, most "generally accepted Climate Change Models" were
calibrated under the assumption that BC was a minor or insignificant
factor, and the model factors were adjusted to relate observed temperature
rise to anthropogenic CO2. Now that BC could have a "forcing effect"
perhaps 2/3 as great as the present forcing effect attributed to
CO2, recalibrating the models to reflect the increased importance of
BC will inherently diminish the importance of CO2 as a factor in CAGW
(Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming). Accordingly, it would
seem reasonable to project a significant decline in "Carbon Credit
Revenue" to biochar producers. Does this seem reasonable? If not, why
not?</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2e: Re sentence #1: Tami Bond, in the quoted
article (which this started out to be about) put major emphasis on
CO2.</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>#KC2e1:
And well she might! The fundamental thrust of the Report was to show that BC
was a significant factor in GW or Climate Change. She (and her co-Authors)
certainly do this. They were not investing the importance of CO2... they
were investigating the importance of BC, and they simply acced what the IPCC
said about CO2 importance.</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
Re your second sentence, all the models lump effects together under
CO2e, not simply CO2. </B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>#KC2e2:
This is where Tami's work can have a very disturbing effect on Climate
Change Modeling. Very disturbing. It throws a huge monkey wrench into the
works. More specifically, since the effects that were all lumped together as
CO2e (ie, CO2 equivalent), without giving proper weight to the importance of
BC, then all such modelling will have to be "re-visited", to include the
effects of BC. More specifically still, all such models were "trained"
without significant recognition of the importance of BC, and various factors
were developed to make the models fit the observations. BC, as "the new kid
on the Climate Change Modeling BBlock", is a real "game changer." The BC
data presently has a large degree of uncertainty... when further research
reduces present uncertainty, instead of being merely "the New Kid on the
Block", BC might actually be "The Elephant in the Room." Also of possibly
great significance is the potential that this BC work may lend significant
support to the Svendmark Hypothesis. See: <A
href="http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis"
target=_blank>http://www.conservapedia.com/Svensmark_hypothesis</A>
</B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>and <A
href="http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/"
target=_blank>http://drtimball.com/2011/svensmark%E2%80%99s-cosmic-theory-confirmed-explains-more-than-solar-role-in-climate-change/</A> for
further elaboration.</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>Re the
last "reasonable" - You have it all wrong. I presume because you are
still a climate denier and are looking for every way possible to make your
denier view seem more reasonable.</B></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2e3: Rather than playing "The Denier
card", I would suggest that you could advance your position more if you
provided palpable fact that showed where my views
are wrong.</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT446 size=4># Concerning
carbon credits for biochar from char-making stoves, would you have an
approximate idea of the value of the carbon credits per tonne for such
biochar? Would you have an approximate idea of the annual tonnage of
biochar that is sold in connection with a carbon credit
payment.</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
[RWL2f: Re #1, See my opening remarks. To
repeat - there is no single value appropriate to all buyers and
sellers of credits. </B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B># KC2f1:
Of course not!! </B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>1:
There is the price that the "End User"</STRONG> <STRONG>pays "The
Retailer" for Carbon Credits</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>2:
There is the price that "The Retailer" buys the CC's from the "manufacturer
or generator or producer of CC's"</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>3:
There is the "net price" that the producer of CC's receives, after deduction
of required inspection, testing, and approval costs.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>In
addition, there are are probably "volume discounts" the reflect the cost of
conducting the transaction. Clearly, the unit cost of carbon credits to
offset a single trip in an airplane will be greater than the unit cost of a
large CC purchase by a coal fired power plant.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> This is
a voluntary market - not a tax. If we were talking a subsidy, I
think $100/tonne char ($35/tonne CO2) would make a huge difference -
and is totally justified on strictly moral/ethical grounds (thinking
of all our obligations to our children and grand-children and to developing
countries. </B><B> The US will benefit a lot more from paying such
a subsidy</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B># KC2f2:
Given the state of the US Economy, such a subsidy is very unlikely. The US
is already more than $44 billion over its permissable debt ceiling. See: <A
href="http://www.usdebtclock.org/"
target=_blank>http://www.usdebtclock.org/</A></B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> -
as the economy will suffer much worse from ocean rise, varied rainfall, size
of storms, etc.</B><B><BR></B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B># KC2f3:
The US Agricultural Economy suffered seriously from drought last year, and
is likely to suffer greatly during this coming crop year. See: <A
href="http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202"
target=_blank>http://nidis1.ncdc.noaa.gov/portal/server.pt/community/drought_gov/202</A></B></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>Are
you saying that CarbonCredits, (and greatly increased use of biochar)
could reverse this drought situation and bring things back to "normal"? If
the US had been using biochar in the 1920's, could this have prevented the
"Dust Bowl of the 1930's"?</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B> </B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>
Re #2 sentence - I have no idea and doubt anyone does. I do hear
people saying that char is in short supply. Such data will be partly
available with an open market.</B> <BR></DIV><STRONG></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2f4: Is it possible that char is in short supply simply because there is
insufficient information to justify its widespread use, and potential
producers are (sensibly) cautious about getting into production because of
lack of evidence of an adequate market? Or, perhaps the biochar producers
are selling most oftheir biochar into "niche markets", where they can get
more for it, than the "Farm level" potential Customer can afford to
pay? </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
Your whole line of questioning has nothing to do with BC from stoves and
whether BC should be an important reason for near term action to promote
cleaner char-making stoves.</STRONG>] </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2f5: No. My entire line of questioning was around the cost of carbon
credits. Remember, of course, that it was you who introduced Carbon Credits
into this thread.<BR></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT id=DWT447 size=4># As we all
know, "adequate carbon credit payments" could lead to a huge
increase in biochar production and use. However, if it is unreasonable to
believe that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon,
then stoves and biochar must rise on their own inherent merits, without
such support. Holding onto a false hope can only result in
disappointment.</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<B>[RWL2g: Re #1 - We agree. The reason that
this is not happening is that too many do not see the ethics and morality of
moving faster (on this I presume we disagree)</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># KC2g1: Another, more likely, explanation is
that the direct economics of biochar are not apparent to the
Farmer.<BR></FONT>
Re#2 - Agree with last part of sentence - and not with the first
on timing.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2g2: Perhaps you are right. If you have a rational basis for
your belief that "adequate carbon credit payments" will be available soon,
please share with the List. That "good news" could very
well precipitate a rush into biochar.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><STRONG>
<FONT face="Times New Roman">Re #3 - Disagree. Assuming failure,
as you seem to be doing, is a self-fulfilling prophecy - to stop all
progress and accept ocean rise, etc with costs much greater than the costs
of credits.
Ron]<BR></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2g3: I do not assume failure... all I warn of is that if "adequate CC
payments will not be available, then biochar, and stove systems that
depended on them for their financial success, will have to find another
justification to assure viability. "</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2g4: I remind you that it is totally impossible for CC's to prevent ocean
rise. Totally, absolutely, and utterly impossible.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Best
wishes,</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT size=4>Best
wishes,</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4></FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG><EM><FONT
size=4>Kevin</FONT></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><STRONG>Ron]</STRONG><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Thanks very much.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 16, 2013
11:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dean
and list:<BR><BR> Tami's is one huge report (232
pages in a major journal sounds like a world record). I spent
quite a few hours today trying to grasp the topic - and know now I had
better give up. The Black Carbon problem is going to take experts
like Tami to bring its importance into the world of stoves. There
may be an argument that if a stove can prove $16/.tonne CO2, you
might have a chance at proving up to (or even more than?) $27/tonne
CO2e, if you are in the right place on the globe. (These numbers
based on numbers given in terms of W/sqm.) I recommend
casual readers getting quickly to the figures at the extreme end of the
report/paper. There is a lot of useful numercal geographic and
sources comparisons there.<BR><BR> As Crispin has
indicated the intentional large scale annual burning of large parts of
Africa look like a good place to instead harvest and get useful energy
and biiochar instead (through stoves and
more).<BR><BR> Congratulations on arranging to have
Tami be the ETHOS key-noter. I think she may have been at
the first!<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR>
<HR id=zwchr>
<B>From: </B>"Dean Still" <deankstill@gmail.com><BR><B>To:
</B>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR><B>Sent: </B>Wednesday,
January 16, 2013 2:05:27 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] New paper on
atmospheric Black Carbon<BR><BR>Dear Friends,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Tami is the keynote speaker at ETHOS this year and it will be
interesting to hear what she's been learning!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>All Best,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dean<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
target=_blank>crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dear Friends<U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>A new and I would say major major paper on the
atmospheric impact of black carbon particles is available for
download. We know at least two of the authors here on ‘Stoves’. Profs
Tami Bond and Philip Hopke (the aethalometer builder who said he was a
minor contributor) are frequent contributors on the subject of
emissions testing.<U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The paper is important because it is the first
really detailed examination of the effects of atmospheric heating by
Black Carbon (BC). <U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The abstract is at <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/abstract</SPAN></A>
and the paper is at <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgrd.50171/pdf</SPAN></A><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">It is not
behind a paywall but it is large (40 MB). Times to get your hands
dirty with BC!<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Regards<SPAN
class=HOEnZb><FONT
color=#888888><U></U><U></U></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P><SPAN
class=HOEnZb><FONT color=#888888>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Crispin<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P
class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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<HR>
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