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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Stuart and all,<br>
<br>
On 2/3/2013 10:21 PM, stuart mather wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1359951698.13470.YahooMailNeo@web142304.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div><span>That's great, thanks Paul,</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family:
arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"><span>So the higher % yield of lower temp
char is only extra weight from ungasified volatiles, and not
because less of the carbon structure is being combusted? In
a no oxygen environment, no carbon can combust, no matter
how high the pyrolysis temp can it?</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family:
arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"><span>And I suppose there's also the
issue of recalcitrance. Do you know the figures for
increased recalcitrance from a higher pyrolysis temp.?</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family:
arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"><span>Stuart.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
The chemistry is important here. In the biomass are many
carbohydrate (C & H & O) molecules. They are NOT elemental
carbon (C). Char is produced by pyrolysis, which uses heat,
whether with or without a flame present. Carbonization/pyrolysis (2
sides of the same coin) is the only way to make char at the surface
of the Earth. Carbon that is called coal is by pressure and heat
underground (or in a laboratory).<br>
<br>
More than this, we need some chemists to fill in the picture to
answer your questions.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<blockquote
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helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
stuart mather <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au"><kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au></a>; Hugh
McLaughlin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net"><wastemin1@verizon.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, 4 February 2013 2:00 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Characteristics of biochar was Re: [biochar] grassifier
& cedar chip char<br>
</font> </div>
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<div class="yiv283229397moz-cite-prefix">Dear Stuart,
Trent and all,<br>
<br>
On 2/3/2013 6:32 AM, stuart mather wrote:<br>
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<div><span>Tom, </span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:
13px; font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;">Isn't the most
compelling reasons for keeping the temp low
is that the yield is higher. If one of the
motivations</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:
13px; font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"> for making biochar is
to sequester C, then minimizing the amount
of CO2 you emit to the atmosphere in
actually making the biochar would seem to be
prudent, wouldn't it? </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Higher yields (as measured by weight) do not mean that
more of the "right kind of C" is created or put into the
soil. Higher weights are usually associated with having
more of the volatiles remaining in the char structure.
So,<br>
<br>
Charcoal at minimal temps (I think about 300 - 350 C)
have a lot of carbon remaining as volatiles (mobile,
can be leached in soils, hurting plants), which is good
if you are trying to ignite it in a charcoal cooker. <br>
<br>
Charcoal at 450 C (in my opinion) is the bottom range of
what is decent to be used as biochar.<br>
<br>
Charcoal at 550 C to 800 C has less weight, but a larger
percentage is the desired carbon structures for good
biochar. Very few volatiles. And has higher
adsorption capacity. <br>
<br>
McLaughlin has a great chart showing this but I cannot
find it right now.<br>
<br>
Please see the paper on the internet: All biochars
are not created equal.... By McLaughlin, Anderson,
Shields and Reed (2009) Also available at my website <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-freetext"
target="_blank"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/resources/publications-and-multimedia/entire-catalogue/">http://www.drtlud.com/resources/publications-and-multimedia/entire-catalogue/</a><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:
13px; font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"> I understand that if
you need to cook with biomass then a Tlud
is clearly the way to go. But can it be
argued that people in the developed world
would be doing the climate a favour by
cooking food with a TLUD too, and leaving
the fossil fuel gas or electric powered
stove gathering dust.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I certainly like to read comments like that!!! <br>
<br>
And there is certainly room for a lot more efforts by
interested people.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
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<pre class="yiv283229397moz-signature">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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'new york', times, serif; font-size:
12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font size="2"
face="Arial">
<hr size="1"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Tom Miles <a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
ymailto="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"><tmiles@trmiles.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Sunday, 3 February 2013 2:58 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
RE: [biochar] grassifier & cedar
chip char<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
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<div> <span> </span>
<div id="yiv283229397ygrp-text">
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class="yiv283229397WordSection1">
<div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">David,</span></div>
<div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Nitrogen in wood and straw forms
ammonia and ammonia like
compounds during pyrolysis.
That is what you are smelling.
Collectively they are called
NOx precursors. When burned
they become Nitrogen oxide
emissions (NOx). As you
suggest the TLUD is a more
oxidizing environment and so
you don’t see the same ammonia
formation.</span></div>
<div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">The assumption that 450C is
magic for all applications has
to be further tested. We have
anecdotally seen very good
results with gasifier chars
which are subjected to much
higher (>600-800 C)
temperatures. It is likely
that TLUD chars are subjected
to these higher temperatures.
</span></div>
<div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Tom</span></div>
<div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;">
<div
class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-freetext"
ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>trent<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
February 02, 2013 8:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[biochar] grassifier &
cedar chip char</span></div>
</div>
</div>
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<div
class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"
style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Well
Don, the noose
is just hanging
there empty so I
am going to put
my head in it.
Looking to scale
up and have
tried a couple
different things
including using
<b><i><u>propane/natural
gas.</u></i></b>
Until proven
otherwise, I
don't see how
you can achieve
a steady,
consistent burn
to account for
biomass
variables in MC,
density, etc. <b><i><u>and</u></i></b>
produce the
volume needed to
make a profit on
industrial
sizing. Steel
went away from
charcoal to
reduce costs.
There is a
lesson there.
If 450C (842f)
is the number
being bandied
about for ideal
commercial
biochar, its
going to take a
lot of processed
biomass burned
or wasted, to
keep a continous
kiln at that
temperature.
Processing
biomass as fuel
isnt cheap.
Using a
combination of
gas and the
biogas,
industrial
ceramics and
automation to
create an oxygen
free enviroment,
opens up all
kind of doors.
I have a very
simple design in
mind which can
run 24/7 with
gas and was
wondering if
anyone could
recommend
someone with a
little more
engineering
expertise than
my UHK degree to
fill in some
blanks. </span></div>
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style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://news.rice.edu/2012/03/22/cooking-better-biochar-study-improves-recipe-for-soil-additive/">http://news.rice.edu/2012/03/22/cooking-better-biochar-study-improves-recipe-for-soil-additive/</a><br>
<br>
</span></div>
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style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;"> David Yarrow <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:dyarrow5@gmail.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:dyarrow5@gmail.com">dyarrow5@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com"
target="_blank" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Saturday,
February 2,
2013 12:02 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re: [biochar]
grassifier
& cedar
chip char</span><span
style="color:black;"></span></div>
</div>
<div
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<div
class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"
style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">On Feb 1, 2013, at
9:12 PM, Trent
Lund wrote:<br>
> David<br>
> Do you
think you
could char a
bale of straw
or is it
pressed to
tight?<br>
<br>
hi trent,<br>
<br>
i've thought
about that.
ideally, we
can design a
burner that
can char an
entire hay
bale without
extra
handling.
might require
a fan to
improve the
air flow thru
the feedstock.
the round
stalks of hay
and straw may
allow
significant
leeway in how
tight they can
be packed
together and
still allow
air to flow up
through the
stalks. dust
is a further
issue that can
shut down air
flow.<br>
<br>
currently, i
use a TLUD,
which requires
air to be
sucked up
through the
biomass.
experience is
this device is
finicky and
temperamental,
and particle
size and
feedstock
density is a
significant
issue. often i
have to screen
wood chips
through
1/4-inch
hardware cloth
to separate
out the dust
and finer
particles, or
the TLUD
chokes, the
gas flare goes
out, and a
smoky, stinky
burn results.
i'm concerned
hay, straw,
weeds, even
cornstalks
might
similarly
choke my TLUD,
so my first
test burn last
weekend with
hay for
feedstock, i
was careful to
loosen the
stalks of the
tightly packed
hay bale and
pack it in the
barrel loosely
but firmly.<br>
<br>
in the next
two months, i
will do more
test burns
with a variety
of weedy
materials. i
will
experiment to
see how tight
i can pack hay
or straw
without
choking the
updraft.<br>
<br>
two years ago,
i was using a
55/30-gallon
kiln &
retort to char
sticks and
limbs of
applewood for
saratoga apple
orchard. apple
is denser than
oak or maple,
and harder to
ignite and
burn. what
worked well
was to loosely
pack straw
with the
applewood.
straw gasifies
faster that
wood, and
kickstarts
pyrolysis
until
temperatures
are intense
enough to
gasify the
denser
applewood.
worked so well
the applewood
limbs would
shatter into
small chunks,
making them
easier to
process into
soil mixes.<br>
<br>
curiously, i
discovered
that a freshly
opened retort
with straw
char emitted
such strong
ammonia odor
it would knock
my head back.
never got to
fully explore
what that was,
but it seemed
certain the
ammonia was
coming from
the straw.
with a TLUD, i
doubt ammonia
will be
created, or if
so, it will be
oxidized and
burnt off in
the gas flare.<br>
<br>
david</span></div>
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