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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Stuart and all,<br>
      <br>
      On 2/3/2013 10:21 PM, stuart mather wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:1359951698.13470.YahooMailNeo@web142304.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
      type="cite">
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        <div><span>That's great, thanks Paul,</span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family:
          arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
          font-style: normal;"><span>So the higher % yield of lower temp
            char is only extra weight from ungasified volatiles, and not
            because less of the carbon structure is being combusted? In
            a no oxygen environment, no carbon can combust, no matter
            how high the pyrolysis temp can it?</span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family:
          arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
          font-style: normal;"><span>And I suppose there's also the
            issue of recalcitrance. Do you know the figures for
            increased recalcitrance from a higher pyrolysis temp.?</span></div>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family:
          arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
          font-style: normal;"><span>Stuart.</span></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    The chemistry is important here.  In the biomass are many
    carbohydrate (C & H & O) molecules.  They are NOT elemental
    carbon (C).   Char is produced by pyrolysis, which uses heat,
    whether with or without a flame present.  Carbonization/pyrolysis (2
    sides of the same coin) is the only way to make char at the surface
    of the Earth.   Carbon that is called coal is by pressure and heat
    underground (or in a laboratory).<br>
    <br>
    More than this, we need some chemists to fill in the picture to
    answer your questions.<br>
    <br>
    Paul<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:1359951698.13470.YahooMailNeo@web142304.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
      type="cite">
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        <div><br>
          <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
Email:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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                <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
                Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a><br>
                <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a> <br>
                <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
                stuart mather <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au"><kneebraceboy@yahoo.com.au></a>; Hugh
                McLaughlin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net"><wastemin1@verizon.net></a> <br>
                <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
                Monday, 4 February 2013 2:00 AM<br>
                <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
                Characteristics of biochar was Re: [biochar] grassifier
                & cedar chip char<br>
              </font> </div>
            <br>
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                <div class="yiv283229397moz-cite-prefix">Dear Stuart,
                  Trent and all,<br>
                  <br>
                  On 2/3/2013 6:32 AM, stuart mather wrote:<br>
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                          <div><span>Tom, </span></div>
                          <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:
                            13px; font-family: arial, helvetica,
                            sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
                            font-style: normal;">Isn't the most
                            compelling reasons for keeping the temp low
                            is that the yield is higher. If one of the
                            motivations</div>
                          <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:
                            13px; font-family: arial, helvetica,
                            sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
                            font-style: normal;"> for making biochar is
                            to sequester C, then minimizing the amount
                            of CO2 you emit to the atmosphere in
                            actually making the biochar would seem to be
                            prudent, wouldn't it? </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                Higher yields (as measured by weight) do not mean that
                more of the "right kind of C" is created or put into the
                soil.  Higher weights are usually associated with having
                more of the volatiles remaining in the char structure. 
                So,<br>
                <br>
                Charcoal at minimal temps (I think about 300 - 350 C)
                have a lot of carbon remaining as  volatiles (mobile,
                can be leached in soils, hurting plants), which is good
                if you are trying to ignite it in a charcoal cooker.   <br>
                <br>
                Charcoal at 450 C (in my opinion) is the bottom range of
                what is decent to be used as biochar.<br>
                <br>
                Charcoal at 550 C to 800 C has less weight, but a larger
                percentage is the desired carbon structures for good
                biochar.  Very few volatiles.   And has higher
                adsorption capacity.   <br>
                <br>
                McLaughlin has a great chart showing this but I cannot
                find it right now.<br>
                <br>
                Please see the paper on the internet:    All biochars
                are not created equal....    By McLaughlin, Anderson,
                Shields and Reed (2009)   Also available at my website <br>
                 <a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
                  class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-freetext"
                  target="_blank"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/resources/publications-and-multimedia/entire-catalogue/">http://www.drtlud.com/resources/publications-and-multimedia/entire-catalogue/</a><br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div id="yiv283229397ygrp-mlmsg" style="">
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                          <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:
                            13px; font-family: arial, helvetica,
                            sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
                            font-style: normal;"> I understand that if
                            you need to cook with biomass then  a Tlud
                            is clearly the way to go. But can it be
                            argued that people in the developed world
                            would be doing the climate a favour by
                            cooking food with a TLUD too, and leaving
                            the fossil fuel gas or electric powered
                            stove gathering dust.</div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                I certainly like to read comments like that!!!   <br>
                <br>
                And there is certainly room for a lot more efforts by
                interested people.<br>
                <br>
                Paul<br>
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                          <div>
                            <pre class="yiv283229397moz-signature">Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
Email:  <a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  <a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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                                  <hr size="1"> <b><span
                                      style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
                                  Tom Miles <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    rel="nofollow"
                                    class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                                    ymailto="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"><tmiles@trmiles.com></a><br>
                                  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
                                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    rel="nofollow"
                                    class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"
                                    href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
                                  <br>
                                  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
                                  Sunday, 3 February 2013 2:58 PM<br>
                                  <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
                                  RE: [biochar] grassifier & cedar
                                  chip char<br>
                                </font> </div>
                              <br>
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                                <div> <span> </span>
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                                      <div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">David,</span></div>
                                      <div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">  </span></div>
                                      <div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Nitrogen in wood and straw forms
                                          ammonia and ammonia like
                                          compounds during pyrolysis.
                                          That is what you are smelling.
                                          Collectively they are called
                                          NOx precursors. When burned
                                          they become Nitrogen oxide
                                          emissions (NOx). As you
                                          suggest the TLUD is a more
                                          oxidizing environment and so
                                          you don’t see the same ammonia
                                          formation.</span></div>
                                      <div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">  </span></div>
                                      <div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">The assumption that 450C is
                                          magic for all applications has
                                          to be further tested. We have
                                          anecdotally seen very good
                                          results with gasifier chars
                                          which are subjected to much
                                          higher (>600-800 C)
                                          temperatures. It is likely
                                          that TLUD chars are subjected
                                          to these higher temperatures.
                                        </span></div>
                                      <div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">  </span></div>
                                      <div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Tom</span></div>
                                      <div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">  </span></div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div style="border-top:solid
                                          #B5C4DF 1.0pt;">
                                          <div
                                            class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span
                                              style="font-size:10.0pt;">
                                              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                rel="nofollow"
                                                class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"
                                                href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
                                              [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                rel="nofollow"
                                                class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-freetext"
ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"
                                                href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>]
                                              <b>On Behalf Of </b>trent<br>
                                              <b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
                                              February 02, 2013 8:36 PM<br>
                                              <b>To:</b> <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                rel="nofollow"
                                                class="yiv283229397moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"
                                                href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                                              <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                                              [biochar] grassifier &
                                              cedar chip char</span></div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="yiv283229397MsoNormal">
                                         </div>
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                                                    <div
                                                      class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"
style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;">Well
                                                        Don, the noose
                                                        is just hanging
                                                        there empty so I
                                                        am going to put
                                                        my head in it. 
                                                        Looking to scale
                                                        up and have
                                                        tried a couple
                                                        different things
                                                        including using
                                                        <b><i><u>propane/natural

                                                          gas.</u></i></b>
                                                        Until proven
                                                        otherwise, I
                                                        don't see how
                                                        you can achieve
                                                        a steady,
                                                        consistent burn
                                                        to account for
                                                        biomass
                                                        variables in MC,
                                                        density, etc. <b><i><u>and</u></i></b>
                                                        produce the
                                                        volume needed to
                                                        make a profit on
                                                        industrial
                                                        sizing.  Steel
                                                        went away from
                                                        charcoal to
                                                        reduce costs. 
                                                        There is a
                                                        lesson there. 
                                                        If 450C (842f) 
                                                        is the number
                                                        being bandied
                                                        about for ideal
                                                        commercial
                                                        biochar, its
                                                        going to take a
                                                        lot of processed
                                                        biomass burned
                                                        or wasted, to
                                                        keep a continous
                                                        kiln at that
                                                        temperature.
                                                        Processing
                                                        biomass as fuel
                                                        isnt cheap. 
                                                        Using a
                                                        combination of
                                                        gas and the
                                                        biogas,
                                                        industrial
                                                        ceramics and
                                                        automation to
                                                        create an oxygen
                                                        free enviroment,
                                                        opens up all
                                                        kind of doors. 
                                                        I have a very
                                                        simple design in
                                                        mind which can
                                                        run 24/7 with
                                                        gas and was
                                                        wondering if
                                                        anyone could
                                                        recommend
                                                        someone with a
                                                        little more
                                                        engineering
                                                        expertise than
                                                        my UHK degree to
                                                        fill in some
                                                        blanks. </span></div>
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style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://news.rice.edu/2012/03/22/cooking-better-biochar-study-improves-recipe-for-soil-additive/">http://news.rice.edu/2012/03/22/cooking-better-biochar-study-improves-recipe-for-soil-additive/</a><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                        </span></div>
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style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span
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                                                          <div
                                                          class="yiv283229397MsoNormal"
style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;"> David Yarrow <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                          rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:dyarrow5@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                                                          href="mailto:dyarrow5@gmail.com">dyarrow5@gmail.com</a>><br>
                                                          <b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
                                                          ymailto="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com"
target="_blank" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          February 2,
                                                          2013 12:02 AM<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [biochar]
                                                          grassifier
                                                          & cedar
                                                          chip char</span><span
style="color:black;"></span></div>
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style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">  </span></div>
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style="background:white;"><span style="color:black;">On Feb 1, 2013, at
                                                          9:12 PM, Trent
                                                          Lund wrote:<br>
                                                          > David<br>
                                                          > Do you
                                                          think you
                                                          could char a
                                                          bale of straw
                                                          or is it
                                                          pressed to
                                                          tight?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          hi trent,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          i've thought
                                                          about that.
                                                          ideally, we
                                                          can design a
                                                          burner that
                                                          can char an
                                                          entire hay
                                                          bale without
                                                          extra
                                                          handling.
                                                          might require
                                                          a fan to
                                                          improve the
                                                          air flow thru
                                                          the feedstock.
                                                          the round
                                                          stalks of hay
                                                          and straw may
                                                          allow
                                                          significant
                                                          leeway in how
                                                          tight they can
                                                          be packed
                                                          together and
                                                          still allow
                                                          air to flow up
                                                          through the
                                                          stalks. dust
                                                          is a further
                                                          issue that can
                                                          shut down air
                                                          flow.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          currently, i
                                                          use a TLUD,
                                                          which requires
                                                          air to be
                                                          sucked up
                                                          through the
                                                          biomass.
                                                          experience is
                                                          this device is
                                                          finicky and
                                                          temperamental,
                                                          and particle
                                                          size and
                                                          feedstock
                                                          density is a
                                                          significant
                                                          issue. often i
                                                          have to screen
                                                          wood chips
                                                          through
                                                          1/4-inch
                                                          hardware cloth
                                                          to separate
                                                          out the dust
                                                          and finer
                                                          particles, or
                                                          the TLUD
                                                          chokes, the
                                                          gas flare goes
                                                          out, and a
                                                          smoky, stinky
                                                          burn results.
                                                          i'm concerned
                                                          hay, straw,
                                                          weeds, even
                                                          cornstalks
                                                          might
                                                          similarly
                                                          choke my TLUD,
                                                          so my first
                                                          test burn last
                                                          weekend with
                                                          hay for
                                                          feedstock, i
                                                          was careful to
                                                          loosen the
                                                          stalks of the
                                                          tightly packed
                                                          hay bale and
                                                          pack it in the
                                                          barrel loosely
                                                          but firmly.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          in the next
                                                          two months, i
                                                          will do more
                                                          test burns
                                                          with a variety
                                                          of weedy
                                                          materials. i
                                                          will
                                                          experiment to
                                                          see how tight
                                                          i can pack hay
                                                          or straw
                                                          without
                                                          choking the
                                                          updraft.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          two years ago,
                                                          i was using a
                                                          55/30-gallon
                                                          kiln &
                                                          retort to char
                                                          sticks and
                                                          limbs of
                                                          applewood for
                                                          saratoga apple
                                                          orchard. apple
                                                          is denser than
                                                          oak or maple,
                                                          and harder to
                                                          ignite and
                                                          burn. what
                                                          worked well
                                                          was to loosely
                                                          pack straw
                                                          with the
                                                          applewood.
                                                          straw gasifies
                                                          faster that
                                                          wood, and
                                                          kickstarts
                                                          pyrolysis
                                                          until
                                                          temperatures
                                                          are intense
                                                          enough to
                                                          gasify the
                                                          denser
                                                          applewood.
                                                          worked so well
                                                          the applewood
                                                          limbs would
                                                          shatter into
                                                          small chunks,
                                                          making them
                                                          easier to
                                                          process into
                                                          soil mixes.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          curiously, i
                                                          discovered
                                                          that a freshly
                                                          opened retort
                                                          with straw
                                                          char emitted
                                                          such strong
                                                          ammonia odor
                                                          it would knock
                                                          my head back.
                                                          never got to
                                                          fully explore
                                                          what that was,
                                                          but it seemed
                                                          certain the
                                                          ammonia was
                                                          coming from
                                                          the straw.
                                                          with a TLUD, i
                                                          doubt ammonia
                                                          will be
                                                          created, or if
                                                          so, it will be
                                                          oxidized and
                                                          burnt off in
                                                          the gas flare.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          david</span></div>
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