Christina,<br><br>Many people here in Vietnam use LPG. But this option is becoming increasingly expensive. When someone buys a gasifier to minimize this expense, I would not encourage them to remove the LPG stove. The LPG stove is quite useful if someone has to cook for just a few minutes. But when it comes to cooking an entire meal, here the little gasifier should be used. In my kitchen, there is a toaster oven, a rice cooker, a microwave, an LPG stove and a gasifier. When a lot of high-grade heat is required over an extended period of time, the gasifier makes the most sense.<br>
<br>Many thanks.<br>Paul Olivier<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Christina Espinosa <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:c_espinosa1@u.pacific.edu" target="_blank">c_espinosa1@u.pacific.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Hi Paul,</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your comments. My point exactly was that we need to present them with all options. Are you saying we should exclude LPG as an option? That is what it sounds like.<br>
<br>Best,</div><div>Christina</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br>On Mar 18, 2013, at 6:23 PM, Paul Olivier <<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite">
<div>Christina,<br><br>See comments.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 7:56 AM, Christina Espinosa <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:c_espinosa1@u.pacific.edu" target="_blank">c_espinosa1@u.pacific.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi Paul,</div><div><br></div>First, I must say that LPG is really expensive in Vietnam. That is unfortunate that the cost to use it is so high. However, LPG is not this expensive all developing countries. <div>
<br></div>
<div>It's my opinion, that to say we should not be including LPG as part of the solution is a bad step in the wrong direction. There is a preference from many families around the world to transition to using LPG, so who are we to say "no you shouldn't use it for cooking." I am guessing that most of us on the list use some type of fossil fuel for cooking right? Do each of us on the listserv use our preferred improved cookstove technology to cook each of our own meals everyday? Probably not.</div>
</blockquote><div><br>No one in developing or developed countries should be relying exclusively on fossil fuels to cook meals. If we design stoves for poor people, we should be the first in line to use them.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div><div>We surveyed 300 families here in Guatemala and 90% of our respondents using wood were interested in switching to using LPG. Of these respondents 76% of families could afford the monthly cost of LPG and a monthly payment for an LPG start-up package.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Guatemala is a great example of a country that has many people that would prefer to use LPG. It doesn't make sense to exclude options for them to finance a LPG starter kit and have regular affordable access to LPG. </div>
</blockquote><div><br>Why promote the use of fossil fuels?<br>The price of bottled gas will continue to rise. <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div><div>I think Kirk Smith might say it better than I could:</div><div><br></div><div>"Does it make sense to ask the poor to take on novel devices and fuels that have never been tried elsewhere, because otherwise we may add a bit to GHG emissions or shorten the petroleum era by a few weeks? Shouldn’t it be those that produce the most GHG and have the resources and technology to do something about it who shoulder the burden of testing and using new low-GHG high efficiency technologies?" </div>
</blockquote><div><br>Yes, exactly. We rich people design stoves for poor people that we ourselves would never use. We should be all be feverishly designing stoves for use in the developed world. Why focus just on poor people?<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div><div><a href="http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/publications/02_smith_3.pdf" target="_blank">http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/publications/02_smith_3.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div>We know that LPG can produce the desired health effects...so it doesn't make sense for us to label it as a rich persons fuel and exclude its potential for poor families to adopt it.</div>
</blockquote><div><br>But LPG is not the only option for poor people, especially poor people who can barely afford LPG.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div><div>There is not one single stove or fuel that will be the answer for every family, in every country. Lets all work together to give families the chance to choose a variety of affordable options to clean cooking.</div>
</blockquote><div><br>But let us present them with all options.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Christina Espinosa<div><div><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Paul Olivier <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Kevin,<br><br>Biochar can have significant value even in poor countries. For example, here in Dalat rice hull biochar is used extensively as a soil amendment. If a poor household can produce one kg of biochar per day and sell it at a fair market price, this will cover the cost of the means to produce it in less than a year. A lot more money has to be devoted to biochar research in a variety of agricultural applications. Once farmers understand the value of biochar with respect to the specific plants or animals they grow, there will be a rush to produce it. The high-grade heat produced in making biochar can be used for cooking, and as a by-product of biochar production, it becomes available to the household free-of-charge. To waste this heat, as some propose to do, is incredibly short-sighted. The sale of biochar should be able to cover not only the cost of the biomass from which it was derived, but in time it should also cover the means to produce it. That is why I push hard against those who want to use biochar as a fuel.<br>
<br>Let us suppose that a gasifier costs $50 US dollars. Let us suppose that a household produces one kg of biochar per day at a value of only $0.20 US per kg. This represents an income of about $6.00 US dollars per month. In less than a year the cost of the gasifier is covered.<br>
<br>Here in Vietnam LPG sells for about $22 US dollars per bottle. Some
households consume up to two bottles of LPG each month. This works out
to a monthly fuel cost of $44 US dollars. This reliance on fossil fuels is killing and has to stop.<br><br><a href="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx" target="_blank">https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx</a><br>
<br>Thanks.<br>Paul<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>
<u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Thanks for your very interesting report to date on "The
Big Event."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I think that one thing that could be very helpful is a
Graph showing " Stove Price" versus "Potential Customers." Clearly, if a person
is earning say $1 per day, and the stove cost $70, this would be equivalent to
70 days income. Here in Canada, where the minimum wage is $10 per hour, or $80
per day, a stove costing 70 days income would cost $5,600.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Or, to look at it from the other direction, "What price
would a stove have to sell for, so that 90% of the World's Population could
afford to buy it"</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Thanks!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px"><div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass</a> ; <a title="biochar@yahoogroups.com" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">biochar</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="pkarve@arti-india.org" href="mailto:pkarve@arti-india.org" target="_blank">Priyadarshini Karve</a> ; <a title="psanders@ilstu.edu" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">,"paul anderson</a>
; <a title="crispinpigott@gmail.com" href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</a> ; <a title="Ruben@ace.co.ls" href="mailto:Ruben@ace.co.ls" target="_blank">Ruben@ace.co.ls</a> ; <a title="adrian@rocketworks.org" href="mailto:adrian@rocketworks.org" target="_blank">adrian@rocketworks.org</a> ; <a title="sonta@emerging.se" href="mailto:sonta@emerging.se" target="_blank">sonta@emerging.se</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 18, 2013 11:19
AM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [biochar] First report from
Phnom Penh</div>
<div><br></div><span> </span>
</div><div>
<div>
<div>
<p>
</p><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial"><div>Hi to two
lists (with 6 ccs)<br><br> 1. This written at end of "first"
day of conference. Actually the official first GACC day is tomorrow, but
today was also the second day of pre-conference activities.. List
members active on these two lists, here (and shown on the "to" list), who I
hope will add more are Priya Karve, Paul Anderson and Crispin
Pemberton-Piggott. I missed the first day - Sunday - returning from Siem
Reap - home of Angkor Wat. This is definitely the most
impressive world heritage site I have seen or could imagine. Uniformly
impressed by the Cambodian people.<br><br></div> 2. My overall
impression is that very few attendees know much about biochar nor char-making
stoves. Of course most everyone knows something about stoves -
although I would guess that fewer than half have been involved for more than a
year or t wo Heard tonight that there are 650 registrants.
Great conference facilities; no conference registration fee and fair
number of freebie meals, coffee-break treats etc.<div><br><br> 3. My
first surprise char-making stove encounter was with Sonta Kauti, a Zambian
with "Emerging Cooking Solutions" - whose stove can be seen at
<a href="http://www.emerging.se" target="_blank">www.emerging.se</a>. I have not yet seen the actual stove, nor yet know its
pricing - but plan more talks with Sonta<br><br></div> 4. Next was a
short encounter with Ruben Walker of "African Clean Energy" (see
<a href="http://www.ace.co.ls/" target="_blank">http://www.ace.co.ls/</a>), now manufacturing in Lesotho the "Philips" fan stove
developed by Paul van der Sluis (PvdS). This has been identified as
having the best performance characteristics so far tested. This was my
first chance to hold one - and it looks exceptionally well made. A
surprise was the set of 10 or 12 (?) flat ceramic liner pieces for the
interior (maybe 1 cm thick??).&nb sp; Presumably long life time - being
non-metal. Ruben said one could hold the outside of the stove
after an hour of cooking -possible because there are four concentric
metal cylinders (three concentric air gaps). This stove is not
char making - but I remember hearing that PvdS regularly operates it as a
charcoal-maker. Cost in neighborhood of $70.<div><br><br> 5.
Later, at this evening's reception, Mr. Adrian Padt of "Rocket Works"
introduced himself (see <a href="http://www.rocketworks.org/" target="_blank">http://www.rocketworks.org/</a> - including
photo of Adrian). This is the stove with the interesting heavy wire mesh
exterior that we discussed a few months ago - also can be held.
This also looked exceptionally well made and rugged. Cost in the
neighborhood of $50. In addition to the version seen at the site,
they are now adding a door to better control excess air.<br><br></div> 6. I
attended a day-long session put on by the World B ank and the Asian
Development Bank.- the emphasis was on country organizations in this
region. Crispin was on what I thought the best panel - on testing, etc.
This is to hope that Priya, Paul, and Crispin (and anyone else from
these lists here in Phnom Penh) will also add their early summary
thoughts.<div><br><br>Any questions I/we can try to answer?<br><br>Ron<br></div></div>
<p></p><p></p></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><span><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br></div></div><span><font color="#888888">Christina Espinosa<br>University of the Pacific '10<br>School of International Studies<br><a href="mailto:c_espinosa1@u.pacific.edu" target="_blank">c_espinosa1@u.pacific.edu</a><br>
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<br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
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<span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</span><br><span><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span><br>
<span></span><br><span>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span><br><span><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a></span><br><span></span><br>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br>
<br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>