Kevin,<br><br>When you claim that Preston in the mustard green study had a starting pH of 4.5, when in fact it was 5.8 pH, then discussing these issues with you is a complete waste of time. If you are going to read a scientific paper, then read the numbers that are there, and do not invent numbers that support your claim. How can we have a discussion if you engage in phantasy? To claim that the only benefit of biochar is its high pH, conveniently overlooks all of the other positive attributes that biochar brings to the soil. I strongly recommend that you read <i>Biochar for Environmental Management</i>, edited by Lehmann and Joseph.<br>
<br>Thanks.<br>Paul<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Paul</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px"><div class="im">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="paul.olivier@esrla.com" href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">Paul
Olivier</a> </div>
</div><div class="im"><div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> ; <a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">Ron Larson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 22, 2013 4:44
AM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] [biochar] First
report from Phnom Penh</div>
<div><br></div>
</div><div class="im"><div>Anand,<br><br>I cannot follow what Kevin is saying here at all.</div>
<div> </div>
</div><div><font face="Arial"><b># What I am saying is that soil pH ( or
bio-reactor pH) is very important, and that it is possible that most of the
results from the astounding 350- 400% improvement may have been a result
of simple pH adjustment, and not as a consequence of "pure biochar" additions.
This is a special situation where an acidic soil was treated with high ash
alkaline biochar, giving excellent results. The results are almost certainly
not transferrable to a more common situation where a "reasonably good
soil" has a biochar addition, where the biochar is made from a "low ash
biochar", such as would be attained from bark free sawn lumber off-cuts from a
sawmill. In "the more common situation", I am suggesting that it is very
unlikely that anything near a 400% yield improvement would be seen. If Dr
Preston had leached the Rice Hull biochar with hot water, and then run tests
as follows, he could have easily sorted out the degree to which ash
(with a pH adjustment effect) or the biochar were responsible for the reported
remarkable improvement:</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>a: Control </b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>b Control + "biochar leach
water"</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>c: Control + "leached
biochar"</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>d: Control + "Unleached
biochar"</b></font></div>
<div><b><font face="Arial">As reported, Dr. Preston ran Tests a: and d: and
was unable to sort out the relative benefits of pH adjustment from the
benefits of biochar itself.</font><br><br></b><div class="im">Let us take a look at the
biochar study with respect to mustard green and other vegetables:<br><a href="http://www.lrrd.org/public-lrrd/proofs/lrrd2501/chha25008.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lrrd.org/public-lrrd/proofs/lrrd2501/chha25008.htm</a></div>
</div><font face="Arial"></font></blockquote>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div><font face="Arial"><b># We see from the Abstract of the
report"</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">" <font>The experimental design in a field plot
trial (soil pH 5.8; OM 17%) conducted in the rainy season (September to
October 2012) involved 24 treatments arranged in a 6*4 factorial arrangement
with 3 replications. The first factor was level of biochar (0, 1, 2, 3, 4 and
5 kg/m<sup>2</sup>); the second factor was the type of vegetable (Water
spinach, Chinese cabbage, Celery cabbage and Mustard green).
Fertilization was with biodigester effluent (10kg N/ha applied to all
treatments. The area of each plot was 1.6m<sup>2</sup> (2.0m length x 0.8m
width) with spacing between each plot of 0.5m. The experiment lasted 35 days.
The biochar (pH 9.3; OM 29.4% in DM) was from a paddy rice drier (combustion
temperature with rice husks as feedstock was about 500<font face="Times New Roman">°C).</font></font>
<p style="TEXT-ALIGN:left" class="MsoNormal"><font>Increasing the
application of biochar from 0 to 5 kg/m<sup>2</sup> led to linear
increases in biomass DM yield of 39, 100, 300 and 350 % for Water
spinach, Chinese cabbage, Celery cabbage and Mustard green, respectively. Soil
quality was improved after the 35 day trial (pH 6.82-7.13; OM 22.6 - 25.7%).
The chemical composition of the biomass DM showed average increases in crude
protein from 13.7 to 18.1% for leaves and from 7.23 to 9.16 for stems.
By contrast, crude fiber in leaves decreased from 14.5 to 9.27% in DM while in
stems it fell from 15.6 to 10.7%. </font>"</p>
<p style="TEXT-ALIGN:left" class="MsoNormal"><b># Note the large
difference in reported results for biochar application... 39% DM increase for
Water Spinnach, and 350% DM increase for Mustard Greens. The difference is
more than a factor of 10, so something very interesting is happening. One very
simple explanantion is that the Mustard Greens benefitted from the pH increase
more than did the Water Spinnach.</b> </p></font><div class="im"><br><br>Preston
acknowledged in his Introduction the fact that biochar has an impact on soil
pH.<br>He hides nothing:<br><br><i><span>Biochar is a fine-grained porous
substance that resembles charcoal produced by natural burning.</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt"> </span><span>However, biochar is produced by the
combustion of biomass under oxygen limited conditions at </span>high
temperatures (from 600 to 1000 °C) in a gasifier. As most of the mineral
matter in biomass is composed of salts of K, Na and Ca, it has a strong
alkaline reaction giving rise to a pH of between 8 and 10 (Rodriguez et al
2009). Thus application of biochar as a soil amender is especially appropriate
in acid soils with a low content of organic matter. Biochar is unlikely to
have a major role as a fertilizer but, because of its structure, it can be
expected to increase water-holding capacity, and be a good habitat for
microbes and plant nutrients</i>.
</div><p style="TEXT-ALIGN:left" class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial"># Dr. Preston is correct in acknowledging the beneficial
effect of biochar for raising soil pH when increased pH is desired.
</font></b></p><div class="im">
<p style="TEXT-ALIGN:left" class="MsoNormal">A bit further he
explains:<br><span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-WEIGHT:normal"><i>The soil
used in the experiment showed improvements as reflected in increased content
of organic matter, nitrogen and pH as a result of the addition of biochar.</i>
</span></p></div></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b># It would have been very interesting to have
seen an "Analysis set" as follows:</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>a: Initial soil OM content</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>b: Initial soil OM Content + Biochar, analysed
for "Total Organic Matter Content" BEFORE growth trials</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>c: Initial soil OM Content + Biochar, analysed
for "Total Organic Matter Content" AFTER growth
trials.</b></font></div>
<div><b><font face="Arial">I would suggest that biochar is NOT "Organic
Matter", but rather it is simply "mineralized carbon", in that it does not
provide nutrition for soil organisms, as does "conventional OM". The
difference between the "b: and "c:" data sets would show the true OM
increase.</font></b></div><div class="im"><i></i>
<div><br>Let us look at the ideal pH for growing mustard greens:<br><a href="http://www.heirloomseeds.com/sthrn-veg.htm" target="_blank">http://www.heirloomseeds.com/sthrn-veg.htm</a><br>The pH for
growing mustard greens varies between 5.5 and 7.5.<br>Some people suggest a pH
between 6 and 7.<br>In any case, a number of 6 is still quite
acceptable:<br><br>The starting pH of the soil in this experiment was
5.8.<br>Where did Kevin get this number of 4.5?<br>How did he come up with
this number?<br>What motivated him to come up with this number!!!</div>
<div> </div>
</div><div><font face="Arial"><b><font face="Arial"># Firstly, the 4.5 pH number
was from recollection, and apparently I recollected wrong. There was no
intent or motivation to misquote the Report, but simply to illustrate my
point. If my posting to Anand and the List is corrected to 5.8, instead of the
erroneous 4.5, then the message I was intending to convey is the
same.</font><br></b></font><div class="im"><br>If an acceptable pH for mustard greens is
6.0,<br> and if the starting pH in this experiment was 5.8,<br> how
can Kevin be so sure that the entire positive effect of biochar can be
summarized only in terms of pH?</div></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b># Firstly, the general pH range of 5.5 to
7.5 is widely used as a "generally good pH for soils", simply because of
solubility conditions where most of the macro and micro nutrients necessary
for good plant growth are in a "generally acceptable range." To take two
extremes, (again from memory), Iron
has an reasonable solubility at (about) pH5.5(?) and Molybdenum
has a maximum availability at about 7.5(?) Thus Rodedendrons, who are very
dependant on Iron might grow in a soil of pH6, but very poorly, because the pH
might be too high, and Alfalfa, with a strong need for Moly would also grow
very poorly, because the Moly availability was too low. Thus, adding high ash
biochar to such a soil, to bring the pH to say 7.5 would probably kill the
Rhodies dead, but the Alfalfa would likely show an extremely good improvement
in growth. So, if one wanted to structure a test to show that "biochar
was bad", one would use Rhodies, or other ericaceous plants, like
blueberries, and get "killer results", while if one wanted to make
biochar look very good, one would run the biochar tests on Alfalfa,
and get wonderful results.</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b> </b></font></div>
<div><b><font face="Arial"># Now, I am not absolutely sure that Mustard
Greens will be as responsive to pH change as Alfalfa would likely be, in
that I have not done experiments to get supporting evidence, but I do
know that pH is very important, and that when there is a wide range in pH
change, bad stuff (or good stuff!) can happen. The experiment I
suggested above would go a long way to proving the degree to which of the
positive effects Reg observed were due to pH adjustment, and which were due to
"pure biochar." As noted above, the Mustard Greens (like the Alfalfa) might be
a plant that benefits significantly from pH, while Water Spinnach may
not. </font></b></div></div><div class="im"><font face="Arial"></font>
<div><br>Also Kevin has made mention several time of the biochar study Dr.
Preston did with respect to cattle.<br>Let us take a look at this study:<br><a href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/11/leng24199.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/11/leng24199.htm</a><br><br>The
study was conducted over a period of 98 days. The cattle fed biochar gained
129 grams per day. The cattle without biochar gained 103 grams per day. The
difference between these two numbers is 26 grams (a little over
25%).<br><br>At the end of the study, the cattle with biochar gained 12.642
kgs, while the cattle without biochar gained 10.094 kgs.<br><br>Preston did
not claim that at the end of the study the cattle with biochar were 25%
heavier than the cattle without biochar. He simply said that during this
experiment the cattle with biochar put on 25% more weight than the cattle
without biochar. The key concept here is <i>live weight gain</i> - a term used
quite often in animal studies. This is what he reported: <font size="+0">"<i>Live weight gain was increased 25% by adding biochar to the diet
DM..</i>"</font> There is absolutely nothing misleading about the manner in
which he made such a claim, and his claim was consistent with all of the data
reported in the paper.</div>
<div> </div>
</div><div><b><font face="Arial"># My concern here is that Readers will miss the
subtlety in Dr. Preston's statement: If biochar was promoted as "giving a 25%
live weight gain", I would guess that most Farmers would figure that "with
biochar, I can add 250 pounds to my 1000 pound cow." However, with Dr.
Preston's reporting methodology, he is reporting on "differential weight
gain", not "live weight gain." With this reporting methodology, the Farmer
with one cow could go from 1,000 pounds to 1,100 pounds on his present ration,
and another 1,000 lb cow on the biochar ration could gain to 1,125
pounds, and a "25% differential weight gain" could truly be claimed. In this
latter case, the "Live Weight Gain" is only 12.5%</font><br><br></b><div class="im">Also
I have no reason to doubt the numbers he reported with respect to enteric
methane reduction (reductions up to 41%). If the cow produces less methane,
one might expect that DM feed conversion would improve and that the cow would
put on more weight. These numbers with respect to methane reduction are truly
amazing. </div></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b># Yes, indeed, the results were amazing.
Unfortunately, the above link does not work for me at the present, but I
believe the enteric methane reduction is due to the presence of increased
nitrate content in the diet. Again, biochar may have helped on an incremental
basis, but it may not have been, or was not, the prime cause of the
improvement. I also understand that chicken manure can be fed to cattle to get
the same benefit, because if its high nitrate
content.</b><br></font><div class="im"><br>In his paper Dr. Preston did not attempt to
deceived or mislead.<br>His science is good science, and it is grounded in
over 50 years working with cattle.</div></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b># Dr. Preston may indeed be correct, and I may
be wrong. However, I do think that my concerns are valid at this stage, and
that proper future testing can sort out the issues.
</b></font></div><font face="Arial"></font></blockquote>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div><font face="Arial"><b>Best wishes,</b></font></div><font face="Arial"></font></blockquote>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px"><font face="Arial"><b>Kevin</b></font><div><div class="h5">
<div><br><br>Thanks.<br>Paul<br><br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Anand</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">The impressive yield improvement may have been due to
neither the minerals nor the biochar, but simply as a result of pH
adjustment by the ash content of the biochar. As I recall, the original
"Control Soil" used in the Preston Report had a pH in the range of about
4.5, while the "biochar soil" with the maximum yield had a pH in the range
of 7-7.5.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></div><span><font color="#888888">
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div></font></span>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b> <a title="adkarve@gmail.com" href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">Anand Karve</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</a> </div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 21, 2013 9:53
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] [biochar] First
report from Phnom Penh</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Dear Paul, Ron and others,</div>
<div> I was instrumental in the development of an urban biogas plant,
which does not use cattle dung but uses food waste as feedstock. One kg
dry weight of starch, sugar, cellulose, protein or any other kind of human
food produces about 1 kg biogas. My biogas plant could normally
accept only 1gram (dry weight) food waste per litre capacity of
digester. Our experiments in which the biogas digester was
filled with charcoal made it possible to increase the quantity of
food waste to three grams per litre, with three times as much biogas
becoming available from the same plant. This worked for about three
months and then the higher efficiency was no longer available. It is a
common observation, that a biogas plant works better, if chemical
fertilizers are added to the feedstock. I have been thinking about this
and it appears to me that it was the minerals in the biochar, that were
contributing to this phenomenon. After the organisms in the biogas
plant had consumed the minerals, the higher efficiency was no longer
available. <br>The same phenomenon might be responsible
for the higher yield in fields provided with biochar. </div>
<div>Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve<br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Paul Olivier
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">Kevin,<br><br>Thanks very much for your reflection.
Toward the end, you raise the interesting question: which is worth more,
biochar as a fuel or biochar as an agricultural product? Let me come
down strongly in favor of biochar as an agricultural product. At the end
of the same presentation, I ask the question: what is the value of
biochar when cattle put on 25% more weight than those in the control
group, when enteric methane emissions from the same cattle are reduced
by 42%, when mustard greens grow at a rate 400% faster than the control
group, or when the same mustard greens have 40% less fiber and 35% more
protein? About 20 experiments were carried put with rice hull biochar
from my gasifiers, and all indicated much higher plant and animal
growth. How then do we put a value on biochar, when current prices for
biochar do not yet reflect this new reality? If we burn biochar, all
goes up in a puff of smoke. If we use biochar in agriculture, we use a
lot less feed and a lot less fertilizer for the same end result, and the
benefits stay with us a very long time.<br><br>We stand in urgent need
for a lot more biochar studies in a lot more agricultural settings. What
we are trying to do at the moment is to understand why biochar has such
a dramatic effect when used in agriculture. Yes, we can point to its
pore structure, to its surface area, to its cation and anion exchange
capacities, to its pH and to its water-holding capacity. But these
elements alone do not give a complete picture. Over 20 years ago,
Japanese scientists were pointing out how biochar promotes the growth of
abuscular mycorrhizal fungi. I have a strong suspicion that these
scientists were leading us in the right direction. So in some of the
next biochar studies that Dr. Preston will conduct, he will focus on how
biochar promotes the growth of AM fungi.<br><br>Thanks.<span><font color="#888888"><br>Paul</font></span>
<div>
<div><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Paul</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Thanks very much for your very interesting slide
Presentation on your Stove, and the explanation of "Rice Hull Biochar
and Fuel Gas Production.Economics."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Basically, 1 kg of free rice hulls yields $US
0.24 worth of pyrolysis gas for heating and 350 grams of Rice Hull
Biochar worth about $0.30 per kg, or say $ 0.10</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">A typical Vietnamese Family would consume about
1 MT of Rice Hulls per year, producing pyrolysis gas for cooking,
worth about $240, and 350 kG of Biochar worth about $100, total $350
per year in the value of cooking energy + biochar sales per
year.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">If your #150 stove sold for $40, it could
pay for itself in less than 1/2 year, with sales of biochar alone, the
value of the pyrolysis gases for cooking would be the equivalent of
about 1 bottle of LPG per month, ie, an additional $22 per month of
"free money." If the use of the pyrolysis gas displaced the need to
purchase 1 bottle of LPG per month, then total savings would be about
$22 + $8 = $30 per month, and the stove would be paid for in less
than 2 months. This indeed would be a very attractive money making
investment for the family.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">The method of financing the stoves that you
propose is very attractive to the Typical Family, where a Charcoal
Merchant would supply the stove to the Family, and they would pay for
the stove with the charcoal they produced.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">The above numbers indicate that, at $0.30 per
kG, the char production sells for $300 per MT.. If
this was the value of the char, when sold into the "Biochar market",
what would be the value of the char when sold into the "Charcoal Fuel
market"?, If the value of the char when sold into the
"Biochar Market" was greater than its value when sold into the
Charcoal Fuel Market, then it would get used as biochar, but if it had
more value as Charcoal fuel, it would be advantageous to the Family to
sell it into the fuel market.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">it looks like you have a very attractive Stove
Project!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best wishes for every
success!</font></div><span><font color="#888888">
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div></font></span>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b> <a title="paul.olivier@esrla.com" href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">Paul Olivier</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a> </div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="biochar@yahoogroups.com" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a> ; <a title="adrian@rocketworks.org" href="mailto:adrian@rocketworks.org" target="_blank">adrian@rocketworks.org</a> ; <a title="sonta@emerging.se" href="mailto:sonta@emerging.se" target="_blank">sonta@emerging.se</a> ; <a title="Ruben@ace.co.ls" href="mailto:Ruben@ace.co.ls" target="_blank">Ruben@ace.co.ls</a> ; <a title="pkarve@arti-india.org" href="mailto:pkarve@arti-india.org" target="_blank">Priyadarshini Karve</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 18, 2013
9:08 PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] [biochar]
First report from Phnom Penh</div>
<div><br></div>Kevin,<br><br>Biochar can have significant value even
in poor countries. For example, here in Dalat rice hull biochar is
used extensively as a soil amendment. If a poor household can
produce one kg of biochar per day and sell it at a fair market
price, this will cover the cost of the means to produce it in less
than a year. A lot more money has to be devoted to biochar research
in a variety of agricultural applications. Once farmers understand
the value of biochar with respect to the specific plants or animals
they grow, there will be a rush to produce it. The high-grade heat
produced in making biochar can be used for cooking, and as a
by-product of biochar production, it becomes available to the
household free-of-charge. To waste this heat, as some propose to do,
is incredibly short-sighted. The sale of biochar should be able to
cover not only the cost of the biomass from which it was derived,
but in time it should also cover the means to produce it. That is
why I push hard against those who want to use biochar as a
fuel.<br><br>Let us suppose that a gasifier costs $50 US dollars.
Let us suppose that a household produces one kg of biochar per day
at a value of only $0.20 US per kg. This represents an income of
about $6.00 US dollars per month. In less than a year the cost of
the gasifier is covered.<br><br>Here in Vietnam LPG sells for about
$22 US dollars per bottle. Some households consume up to two bottles
of LPG each month. This works out to a monthly fuel cost of $44 US
dollars. This reliance on fossil fuels is killing and has to
stop.<br><br><a href="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx" target="_blank">https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx</a><br><br>Thanks.<br>Paul<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Thanks for your very interesting report to
date on "The Big Event."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I think that one thing that could be very
helpful is a Graph showing " Stove Price" versus "Potential
Customers." Clearly, if a person is earning say $1 per day, and
the stove cost $70, this would be equivalent to 70 days income.
Here in Canada, where the minimum wage is $10 per hour, or $80 per
day, a stove costing 70 days income would cost
$5,600.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Or, to look at it from the other direction,
"What price would a stove have to sell for, so that 90% of the
World's Population could afford to buy it"</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Thanks!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass</a> ; <a title="biochar@yahoogroups.com" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">biochar</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="pkarve@arti-india.org" href="mailto:pkarve@arti-india.org" target="_blank">Priyadarshini Karve</a> ; <a title="psanders@ilstu.edu" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">,"paul anderson</a> ; <a title="crispinpigott@gmail.com" href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</a> ; <a title="Ruben@ace.co.ls" href="mailto:Ruben@ace.co.ls" target="_blank">Ruben@ace.co.ls</a>
; <a title="adrian@rocketworks.org" href="mailto:adrian@rocketworks.org" target="_blank">adrian@rocketworks.org</a> ; <a title="sonta@emerging.se" href="mailto:sonta@emerging.se" target="_blank">sonta@emerging.se</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 18,
2013 11:19 AM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [biochar] First
report from Phnom Penh</div>
<div><br></div><span> </span> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p></p>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial;FONT-SIZE:12pt">
<div>Hi to two lists (with 6 ccs)<br><br> 1.
This written at end of "first" day of conference. Actually
the official first GACC day is tomorrow, but today was also the
second day of pre-conference activities.. List members
active on these two lists, here (and shown on the "to" list),
who I hope will add more are Priya Karve, Paul Anderson and
Crispin Pemberton-Piggott. I missed the first day - Sunday
- returning from Siem Reap - home of Angkor
Wat. This is definitely the most impressive world
heritage site I have seen or could imagine. Uniformly
impressed by the Cambodian people.<br><br></div> 2.
My overall impression is that very few attendees know much about
biochar nor char-making stoves. Of course most everyone
knows something about stoves - although I would guess that
fewer than half have been involved for more than a year or t
wo Heard tonight that there are 650
registrants. Great conference facilities; no
conference registration fee and fair number of freebie meals,
coffee-break treats etc.
<div><br><br> 3. My first surprise char-making stove
encounter was with Sonta Kauti, a Zambian with "Emerging Cooking
Solutions" - whose stove can be seen at <a href="http://www.emerging.se/" target="_blank">www.emerging.se</a>. I have not yet seen the
actual stove, nor yet know its pricing - but plan more talks
with Sonta<br><br></div> 4. Next was a short
encounter with Ruben Walker of "African Clean Energy" (see
<a href="http://www.ace.co.ls/" target="_blank">http://www.ace.co.ls/</a>), now manufacturing in
Lesotho the "Philips" fan stove developed by Paul van der Sluis
(PvdS). This has been identified as having the best
performance characteristics so far tested. This was my
first chance to hold one - and it looks exceptionally well
made. A surprise was the set of 10 or 12 (?) flat ceramic
liner pieces for the interior (maybe 1 cm thick??).&nb sp;
Presumably long life time - being non-metal. Ruben
said one could hold the outside of the stove after an hour of
cooking -possible because there are four concentric metal
cylinders (three concentric air gaps). This stove is
not char making - but I remember hearing that PvdS regularly
operates it as a charcoal-maker. Cost in
neighborhood of $70.
<div><br><br> 5. Later, at this evening's reception,
Mr. Adrian Padt of "Rocket Works" introduced himself (see
<a href="http://www.rocketworks.org/" target="_blank">http://www.rocketworks.org/</a> - including
photo of Adrian). This is the stove with the interesting
heavy wire mesh exterior that we discussed a few months ago -
also can be held. This also looked exceptionally
well made and rugged. Cost in the neighborhood of
$50. In addition to the version seen at the site,
they are now adding a door to better control excess
air.<br><br></div> 6. I attended a day-long session put on
by the World B ank and the Asian Development Bank.- the emphasis
was on country organizations in this region. Crispin was
on what I thought the best panel - on testing, etc. This is to
hope that Priya, Paul, and Crispin (and anyone else from
these lists here in Phnom Penh) will also add their early
summary thoughts.
<div><br><br>Any questions I/we can try to
answer?<br><br>Ron<br></div></div>
<p></p>
<p></p></div>
<div style="MIN-HEIGHT:0px;COLOR:#fff">__._,_.___</div>
<table style="MARGIN-TOP:20px;MARGIN-BOTTOM:10px" cellspacing="4">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#eaeaea 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:5px;BACKGROUND-COLOR:#f2f2f2;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:5px;FONT-FAMILY:arial;COLOR:#fff;FONT-SIZE:12px;BORDER-TOP:#eaeaea 1px solid;FONT-WEIGHT:bold;BORDER-RIGHT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:7px">
<a style="COLOR:#2d50fd;TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNWpzajRmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRtc2dJZAMxNDY3MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTc-?act=reply&messageNum=14670" target="_blank">Reply via web post</a> </td>
<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#eaeaea 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:5px;BACKGROUND-COLOR:#f2f2f2;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:5px;FONT-FAMILY:arial;COLOR:#fff;FONT-SIZE:12px;BORDER-TOP:#eaeaea 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:7px">
<a style="COLOR:#2d50fd;TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20First%20report%20from%20Phnom%20Penh" target="_blank">Reply to sender </a></td>
<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#eaeaea 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:5px;BACKGROUND-COLOR:#f2f2f2;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:5px;FONT-FAMILY:arial;COLOR:#fff;FONT-SIZE:12px;BORDER-TOP:#eaeaea 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:7px">
<a style="COLOR:#2d50fd;TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20First%20report%20from%20Phnom%20Penh" target="_blank">Reply to group </a></td>
<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#eaeaea 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:5px;BACKGROUND-COLOR:#f2f2f2;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:5px;FONT-FAMILY:arial;COLOR:#fff;FONT-SIZE:12px;BORDER-TOP:#eaeaea 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:7px">
<a style="COLOR:#2d50fd;TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdWw3aTFvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTc-" target="_blank">Start a New Topic</a> </td>
<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#eaeaea 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:5px;BACKGROUND-COLOR:#f2f2f2;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:5px;FONT-FAMILY:arial;COLOR:#2d50fd;FONT-SIZE:12px;BORDER-TOP:#eaeaea 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#eaeaea 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:7px">
<a style="COLOR:#2d50fd;TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/message/14670;_ylc=X3oDMTM3OWpzaGUwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRtc2dJZAMxNDY3MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTcEdHBjSWQDMTQ2NzA-" target="_blank">Messages in this topic</a> (1)
</td></tr></tbody></table>
<div style="PADDING-BOTTOM:10px;BACKGROUND-COLOR:#f2f2f2;PADDING-LEFT:10px;PADDING-RIGHT:10px;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;MARGIN-BOTTOM:10px;FONT-SIZE:10px;PADDING-TOP:10px"><span style="TEXT-TRANSFORM:uppercase;COLOR:#333;FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Recent
Activity:</span>
<ul style="PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;LIST-STYLE-TYPE:none;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;DISPLAY:inline;PADDING-TOP:0px">
<li style="PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:5px;DISPLAY:inline;MARGIN-LEFT:0px;FONT-WEIGHT:700;BORDER-RIGHT:#000 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:0px"><span><a style="TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJnazBoMWhyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJycwRzdGltZQMxMzYzNjE2MzU3?o=6" target="_blank">New Members</a></span> <span style="COLOR:#ff7900">2</span> </li>
</ul>
<div style="COLOR:#1e66ae;CLEAR:both;PADDING-TOP:2px"><a style="TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZG8xaXZzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTc-" target="_blank">Visit Your Group</a> </div>
</div>
<div style="PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN-TOP:5px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:2px;FONT-FAMILY:Arial;CLEAR:both;FONT-SIZE:11px;PADDING-TOP:0px"><a style="FLOAT:left" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZWZoZ2gxBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTM2MzYxNjM1OA--" target="_blank"><img src="" style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH:0px;BORDER-TOP-WIDTH:0px;BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH:0px;BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH:0px" alt="Yahoo! Groups" height="15" width="137"></a>
<div style="FLOAT:right;COLOR:#747575">Switch to: <a style="TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="mailto:biochar-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change+Delivery+Format:+Traditional" target="_blank">Text-Only</a>, <a style="TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="mailto:biochar-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email+Delivery:+Digest" target="_blank">Daily Digest</a> • <a style="TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="mailto:biochar-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" target="_blank">Unsubscribe</a> • <a style="TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" target="_blank">Terms of
Use</a> • <a style="TEXT-DECORATION:none" href="mailto:ygroupsnotifications@yahoogroups.com?subject=Feedback+on+the+redesigned+individual+mail+v1" target="_blank">Send us Feedback </a></div></div></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0px 0px 25px;WIDTH:160px;BACKGROUND:#fff;FLOAT:right;CLEAR:none">
<div></div></div>
<div style="COLOR:#fff;CLEAR:both;FONT-SIZE:1px">.</div></div><img src="" height="1" width="1"> <br>
<div style="MIN-HEIGHT:0px;COLOR:#fff">__,_._,___</div></blockquote></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
web site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien
Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124
(rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype
address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a> </div></div>
<p></p>
<hr>
<div>
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br></div>
<p></p></blockquote></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien
Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124
(rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address:
Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE
or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>***<br>Dr. A.D. Karve<br>Trustee & Founder
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br><br>
<p></p>
<hr>
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing
list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or
Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br>
<p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or
Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien
Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings
Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address:
Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
<p>
</p><hr>
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing
list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change
your List Settings use the web
page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><p></p></div></div></blockquote></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br>
<br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>