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      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Those
          are all good points, Paul.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The

          technical aspects of the testing have to be in line with real
          world expectations about what we think we are bring told. The
          disconnect is large. People buying carbon offsets think they
          are getting a payoff in standing trees.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Switching
          to non-woody biomass is using a biomass resource but not a
          tree resource and many people have that as a goal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The

          thing is, this is not a stove function (to think of such
          things). If a stove is rated for performance, it can be
          assessed on relative efficiency against a baseline and
          demonstrate benefits.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The

          analysis you speak of – which fuel goes in and how those fuels
          are or are not in surplus in the community – is not a function
          of the performance test. It is an analysis carried out
          afterwards using the data contained in the stove test.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I
          think we have to resist the temptation to have the test method
          driven by any particular agenda, even though those agenda are
          real, exist and valid. When we turn on the lights to have a
          meeting, the protocol for testing lights does not dictate what
          kinds of meeting it is allowed to illuminate or give different
          answers depending on what is being discussed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Once

          the correct questions are asked, the stove testing method can
          give answers, relative ones or absolute ones. If there is
          something missing from the test that is needed in to inform
          the conversation, the need must be clearly stated. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The
          needs to date have centered on fuel consumption calculated in
          a particular manner. It is not the only question to ask.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">So,

          what are the questions you want answered? They have to be
          related to the performance of the stove, not how they fit into
          some other box or square hole. Stove testing is not about
          policy (much).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Crispin</span>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">
</pre>
      On 4/8/2013 12:10 AM, Mark Ludlow wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:002e01ce3417$5433b4d0$fc9b1e70$@ludlow.com"
      type="cite">
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Very good
                  points, Paul!<o></o></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"><o> </o></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Mark<o></o></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"><o> </o></span></p>
              <div>
                <div style="border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt;"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
                      [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
                      </b>Paul Anderson<br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 7, 2013 9:51 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves;
                      Hugh McLaughlin; Bob Fairchild;
                      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> [biochar] Understanding FUEL
                      EFFICIENCY vs Energy efficiency<o></o></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o> </o></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">  <o></o></p>
              <div id="ygrp-mlmsg">
                <div id="ygrp-msg">
                  <div id="ygrp-text">
                    <p>Dear Stovers and Biochar makers,<br>
                      <br>
                      We are NOT sufficiently emphasizing that
                      TLUDs/char-maker stoves can use <br>
                      fuel other than stick wood. When burning
                      briquettes and pellets and <br>
                      cobs and shells (which most other stoves cannot
                      burn very well), we are <br>
                      NOT burning tree-sourced fuel.<br>
                      <br>
                      Crispin correctly says that a kg of wood in and
                      pyrolyzed is no longer <br>
                      wood, and therefore is FUEL used, and that relates
                      to FUEL Efficiency. <br>
                      TLUDs can consume more wood because they are
                      converting some of that <br>
                      wood into charcoal. That is different from ENERGY
                      efficiency, which <br>
                      can allow calculations for the energy in the
                      charcoal that is not used.<br>
                      <br>
                      Especially in char-making stoves, energy
                      efficiency is better than the <br>
                      fuel efficiency IF USING WOOD. But if the fuel is
                      not wood, then the <br>
                      WOOD-FUEL efficiency is 100% (none was burned in
                      the cooking of the <br>
                      meal), and the ENERGY efficiency might be very
                      good, while the FUEL <br>
                      efficiency (burning ag residues, dung, etc) might
                      be low in comparison <br>
                      with other stoves, but no trees were cut or
                      burned.<br>
                      <br>
                      About the above, there will need to be some
                      education given to the stove <br>
                      community (including GACC and manufacturers and
                      governments). WHAT fuel <br>
                      is burned does make a difference if FUEL
                      efficiency is an important <br>
                      criteria when evaluating stoves.<br>
                      <br>
                      Just because wood is the traditional fuel used in
                      stove testing does not <br>
                      mean that stoves that can also burn OTHER biomass
                      should be judged on <br>
                      the WOOD-FUEL efficiency calculations. For places
                      like Haiti, Rwanda, <br>
                      and many large zones of numerous large countries,
                      to be able to cook <br>
                      WITHOUT FOREST DEGRADATION should be a major
                      reason for choosing TLUD <br>
                      stoves.<br>
                      <br>
                      Having written about this here does not mean that
                      the message has <br>
                      reached the decision makers and those who report
                      test results on <br>
                      cookstoves. And the makers of "stick-wood-burning
                      stoves" are unlikely <br>
                      to want to tell this message to others.<br>
                      <br>
                      Because the GACC is about stoves AND FUELS, I hope
                      that proper <br>
                      recognition can be given in the discussions and
                      decisions about the <br>
                      stoves that can have 100% avoidance of cutting
                      wood, if that is important.<br>
                      <br>
                      Paul<br>
                      <br>
                      -- <br>
                      Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
                      Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:psanders%40ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
                      Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
                      Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><o></o></p>
                  </div>
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                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:white;"><o></o></span></p>
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  <!--
  #ygrp-mkp {
  border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
  font-family: Arial;
  margin: 10px 0;
  padding: 0 10px;
}

#ygrp-mkp hr {
  border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}

#ygrp-mkp #hd {
  color: #628c2a;
  font-size: 85%;
  font-weight: 700;
  line-height: 122%;
  margin: 10px 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp #ads {
  margin-bottom: 10px;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad {
  padding: 0 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad p {
  margin: 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad a {
  color: #0000ff;
  text-decoration: none;
}
  #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc {
  font-family: Arial;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd {
  margin: 10px 0px;
  font-weight: 700;
  font-size: 78%;
  line-height: 122%;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad {
  margin-bottom: 10px;
  padding: 0 0;
}

  #actions {
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-size: 11px;
    padding: 10px 0;
  }

  #activity {
    background-color: #e0ecee;
    float: left;
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-size: 10px;
    padding: 10px;
  }

  #activity span {
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  #activity span:first-child {
    text-transform: uppercase;
  }

  #activity span a {
    color: #5085b6;
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  #activity span span {
    color: #ff7900;
  }

  #activity span .underline {
    text-decoration: underline;
  }

  .attach {
    clear: both;
    display: table;
    font-family: Arial;
    font-size: 12px;
    padding: 10px 0;
    width: 400px;
  }

  .attach div a {
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  .attach img {
    border: none;
    padding-right: 5px;
  }

  .attach label {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 5px;
  }

  .attach label a {
    text-decoration: none;
  }
  
  blockquote {
    margin: 0 0 0 4px;
  }

  .bold {
    font-family: Arial;
    font-size: 13px;
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  .bold a {
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  dd.last p a {
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  dd.last p span {
    margin-right: 10px;
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
    margin-right: 0;
  }

  div.attach-table div div a {
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  div.attach-table {
    width: 400px;
  }

  div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited {
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited {
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
    font-family: Verdana;
    font-size: 10px;
    font-weight: normal;
  }

  .green {
    color: #628c2a;
  }

  .MsoNormal {
    margin: 0 0 0 0;
  }

  o {
    font-size: 0;
  }

  #photos div {
    float: left;
    width: 72px;
  }

  #photos div div {
    border: 1px solid #666666;
    height: 62px;
    overflow: hidden;
    width: 62px;
  }

  #photos div label {
    color: #666666;
    font-size: 10px;
    overflow: hidden;
    text-align: center;
    white-space: nowrap;
    width: 64px;
  }

  #reco-category {
    font-size: 77%;
  }

  #reco-desc {
    font-size: 77%;
  }

  .replbq {
    margin: 4px;
  }

  #ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
   /* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
    margin-right: 2px;
    padding-right: 5px;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg {
    font-size: 13px;
    font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
    *font-size: small;
    *font: x-small;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg table {
    font-size: inherit;
    font: 100%;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
    font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
    font:115% monospace;
    *font-size:100%;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg * {
    line-height: 1.22em;
  }

  #ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
    padding-bottom: 10px;
  }


  #ygrp-msg p a {
    font-family: Verdana;
  }

  #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
    color: #1E66AE;
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  #ygrp-reco #reco-head {
    color: #ff7900;
    font-weight: 700;
  }

  #ygrp-reco {
    margin-bottom: 20px;
    padding: 0px;
  }

  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
    font-size: 130%;
    text-decoration: none;
  }

  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
    font-size: 77%;
    list-style-type: square;
    padding: 6px 0;
  } 

  #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
    margin: 0;
    padding: 0 0 0 8px;
  }

  #ygrp-text {
    font-family: Georgia;
  }

  #ygrp-text p {
    margin: 0 0 1em 0;
  }

  #ygrp-text tt {
    font-size: 120%;
  }

  #ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
    border-right: none !important; 
  } 
  -->
  </style>
      <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
      <!-- end group email -->
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>