<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><link href="/zimbra/css/msgview.css?v=201303250001" rel="stylesheet"><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">Paul, list etal. adding Priya and AD Karve as ccs.<br><br> My experience in this "attribute-list-stove-type" activity has mostly been through dialog with Dr. Priya Karve. Last month, she was on a GACC panel (which I missed) entitled: "Selecting the Most Appropriate Technologies for Your Consumers". As CEO of Samuchit, she has been selling several types of stoves and certainly can take both a researcher and a user perspective. See www.samuchit.com (the commercial side of ARTI, now including also her father A. D. ). Priya has given this topic a lot of thought. (I have given some - not a lot - being on the research end of the spectrum - and seeing many ways to improve stoves.)<br><br> Last year, we each tried placing 100 points in a column similar to that started by Lanny. We found ourselves quite divergent. At issue will be how one weights the various categories or items. I have concluded that self weighting is likely the most appropriate way to analyze this topic -- if someone puts their 100 points (the number needn't be specified) on one item, that is telling you a lot (but I would want hundreds if not thousands of inputs). If an important topic is not on your list, it is not apt to come up spontaneously very much. That is why I liked Jock Gill's contribution this AM. There should be a different list for groups like GACC. <br><br> This to ask if anyone who attended GACC can report on the conclusions of that particular panel. Especially I hope that Priya and AD can add some thoughts.<br><br>Ron<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Paul Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu><br><b>To: </b>"Robert Fairchild" <solarbobky@yahoo.com><br><b>Cc: </b>"Kevin" <kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca>, "Hugh McLaughlin" <wastemin1@verizon.net>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, April 8, 2013 10:01:45 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Stove Matrix version 2<br><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">To all,<br>
<br>
I remember the Matrix to have columns at the right side to show
LPG/alcohol/solar, etc. <br>
<br>
I am looking for it, but that was 4 years ago.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 4/8/2013 6:01 AM, Robert Fairchild wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:1365418882.32340.YahooMailClassic@web161305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="font: inherit;" valign="top">All,<br>
Here it is as an attachment.<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Mon, 4/8/13, Paul Anderson <i><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a></i></b>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16,
255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>
From: Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar] Understanding FUEL
EFFICIENCY vs Energy efficiency<br>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><br>
Cc: "Kevin" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca" target="_blank"><kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Hugh McLaughlin"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net" target="_blank"><wastemin1@verizon.net></a>, "Bob Fairchild"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:solarbobky@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><solarbobky@yahoo.com></a><br>
Date: Monday, April 8, 2013, 2:25 AM<br>
<br>
<div id="yiv1122228153">
<div>
<div class="yiv1122228153moz-cite-prefix">Dear
Kevin, Crispin and all,<br>
<br>
We are in agreement. <br>
<br>
"Stove Testing" is an expression that has
different meaning to different people. WBT is
one of the tests of stoves. Just like we want to
have the Safety analysis reported. <br>
<br>
Kevin's list of questions should be part of a
Table of Stove Characteristics that includes
price, etc etc etc. I have not seen such a table
since I posted a Cookstove Matrix in March 2006.
Here is the description and the link, but I cannot
see the actual matrix. Erin or Tom, can you find
it?<br>
<blockquote><a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1122228153moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/stove-matrix">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/stove-matrix</a></blockquote>
Anyway, the point is that we need these kinds of
consolidations of the many factors.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="yiv1122228153moz-signature">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1122228153moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="about:blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1122228153moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 4/8/2013 12:40 AM, Kevin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Paul</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I would like to suggest a
different way of looking at things.... look at
a stove through the eyes of the customer.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">(The "Customer" is the
person or Organization that pays the
Manufacturer for the Stove.)</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">The fundamental question
should be: "What does the Customer want?"</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Does the Customer want the
stove to produce biochar?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Does the Customer want the
stove to have the least fuel input to
accomplish a stated task?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Does the Customer want to
minimize products of combustion vented into
the living space?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Does the Customer want the
stove to provide a space heating benefit for
the stove user?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Does the Customer want a
stove that requires extended burn times
between refuelling, and a minimum of
attendance?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Does the Customer want a
single firing rate throughout the burn, OR, a
"Two Level Firing Rate capability, OR a large
range of firing capabilities?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">etc....</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">"Efficiency" is basically
a measure of "Resource Input to accomplish a
desired task"</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">It is not the purpose of
"testing" to promote a particular technology
or philosophy, but rather, to measure the
effectiveness of accomplishing a given task of
importance to the Customer..</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">"The Customer is the
King." Proper Testing Protocols should allow a
Customer to test a range of stoves, under a
variety of circumstances, so that he will be
able to select the stove that best meets his
requirements.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;
PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;">----- Original
Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4;
"><b>From:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" href="about:blank">Paul
Anderson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" href="about:blank">Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" title="wastemin1@verizon.net" target="_blank" href="about:blank">Hugh
McLaughlin</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" title="solarbobky@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="about:blank">Bob
Fairchild</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" title="biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" href="about:blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, April 08, 2013 1:50 AM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b>
[biochar] Understanding FUEL EFFICIENCY vs
Energy efficiency</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span style="DISPLAY:none;"> </span>
<div style="" id="yiv1122228153ygrp-mlmsg">
<div style="" id="yiv1122228153ygrp-msg"><div id="yiv1122228153ygrp-text">
<p>Dear Stovers and Biochar makers,<br>
<br>
We are NOT sufficiently emphasizing that
TLUDs/char-maker stoves can use <br>
fuel other than stick wood. When burning
briquettes and pellets and <br>
cobs and shells (which most other stoves
cannot burn very well), we are <br>
NOT burning tree-sourced fuel.<br>
<br>
Crispin correctly says that a kg of wood
in and pyrolyzed is no longer <br>
wood, and therefore is FUEL used, and
that relates to FUEL Efficiency. <br>
TLUDs can consume more wood because they
are converting some of that <br>
wood into charcoal. That is different
from ENERGY efficiency, which <br>
can allow calculations for the energy in
the charcoal that is not used.<br>
<br>
Especially in char-making stoves, energy
efficiency is better than the <br>
fuel efficiency IF USING WOOD. But if
the fuel is not wood, then the <br>
WOOD-FUEL efficiency is 100% (none was
burned in the cooking of the <br>
meal), and the ENERGY efficiency might
be very good, while the FUEL <br>
efficiency (burning ag residues, dung,
etc) might be low in comparison <br>
with other stoves, but no trees were cut
or burned.<br>
<br>
About the above, there will need to be
some education given to the stove <br>
community (including GACC and
manufacturers and governments). WHAT
fuel <br>
is burned does make a difference if FUEL
efficiency is an important <br>
criteria when evaluating stoves.<br>
<br>
Just because wood is the traditional
fuel used in stove testing does not <br>
mean that stoves that can also burn
OTHER biomass should be judged on <br>
the WOOD-FUEL efficiency calculations.
For places like Haiti, Rwanda, <br>
and many large zones of numerous large
countries, to be able to cook <br>
WITHOUT FOREST DEGRADATION should be a
major reason for choosing TLUD <br>
stoves.<br>
<br>
Having written about this here does not
mean that the message has <br>
reached the decision makers and those
who report test results on <br>
cookstoves. And the makers of
"stick-wood-burning stoves" are unlikely
<br>
to want to tell this message to others.<br>
<br>
Because the GACC is about stoves AND
FUELS, I hope that proper <br>
recognition can be given in the
discussions and decisions about the <br>
stoves that can have 100% avoidance of
cutting wood, if that is important.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
Email: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="about:blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
Website: <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1122228153moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
<br>
</p>
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<br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br><br></div></div></body></html>