<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Ms. Vermeer<br><br> 1. For your type of (large) stove [ others see:<br> http://www.eco-kalan.com/index.php?id=4,0,0,1,0,0]<br>I recommend you look at the work of Richard Stanley for briquettes - not pellets. See<br><br> http://www.legacyfound.org/<br><br> 2. I want also to get in the concept that for char-making stoves (NOT yours or Richard's situation), we want to avoid the cube or hockey puck shape - and move towards spheres. In my view a sphere up to about a tenth of the diameter of the stove will have airflow and pyrolysis uniformity properties that are better than pellets. <br><br> 3. Anyone able to give a source for making spheres as cheaply as making pellets?<br><br>Ron<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer@telus.net><br><b>To: </b>"M. Nurhuda" <mnurhuda@ub.ac.id>, stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><b>Sent: </b>Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:24:27 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] More on the Alternatives to Charcoal.<br><br>
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<div>Nurhuda,</div>
<div>Can rice straw and husk be pelleted into bigger chunks about the size of
wood charcoal (1-inch cube or more)? or into sticks like
firewood? I can use charcoal (from wood or coconut shell) or
firewood (small branches), etc. in an eco-kalan in the Philippines.</div>
<div>Rebecca Vermeer </div>
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<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="paul.olivier@esrla.com" href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">Paul Olivier</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 13, 2013 6:00 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="mnurhuda@ub.ac.id" href="mailto:mnurhuda@ub.ac.id" target="_blank">M.
Nurhuda</a> ; <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] More on the Alternatives to
Charcoal.</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">Nurhuda,<br><br>I
really am delighted to read what you have written in this email. I
wholeheartedly support your approach. If we tap into the enormous amount of
biomass available in the form of agricultural residues, we can go a long way in
meeting the cooking needs of most of the people in Asia. Just imagine the
tonnage of rice hulls and rice straw available in China alone. Just imagine the
colossal amount of wheat straw available in Europe and the USA that could serve
as fuel for gasifiers situated in modern kitchens. No one, rich or poor, should
be relying exclusively on fossil fuels to cook a meal.<br><br><a href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx" target="_blank">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx</a><br><br>Many
thanks.<br>Paul Olivier<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:57 AM, M. Nurhuda <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mnurhuda@ub.ac.id" target="_blank">mnurhuda@ub.ac.id</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Dear
all stovers,<br><br>I am from Java, but not central Java as Crispin and World
Bank team are<br>mostly visiting.<br><br>Dense forest in Java is now just a
story. We do not have anymore dense,<br>big rainfall forest. Not only in Java,
even in other island like Borneo or<br>Sumatra. Probably in Papua there are
still big forest, but I am very<br>skeptic if in the next 5 or 10
years these dense forests still do exist.<br>There are currently massive
deforestation due to palm plantation.<br><br>We propose, regarding the clean
cookstove initiative phase I, which<br>targeting 10 million stove users
between 2014-2020, not to use woods as<br>fuel, but the agriculture and
plantation residues. We have provided simple<br>calculation, that rice straw
alone can be feedstock for pellets sufficient<br>for 164 Million house holds
in Indonesia. How does this number come?<br><br>The rice grain production in
year in all Indonesia is 70.4 Million tons.<br>The ration between dry rice
straw to dry rice grain is always between<br>1.1-2, but mostly 1.44. The total
dry rice straw as byproduct of rice<br>farming will be around 100 million tons
in year. When the straw is<br>converted to pellet, around 10% of mass will be
lost. Thus, from 100<br>Million tons of rice straw we can get 90 million tons
pellets. Assuming<br>that each house hold needs only 1,5 kg pellet
daily, the pellet will<br>suffice for 164 millions house
holds.<br><br>The agriculture and plantation residues are not only rice straw,
but also<br>rice husks, cornstalk, sugar cane, grass and still a lot. All can
be used<br>as pellet feedstock. There are many big companies in Indonesia
ready to<br>produce the pellet, if the governments give supports and the
market for<br>pellet is open.<br><br>All we have to do is introducing the
change. We have to make the people<br>aware that they can not rely at all to
log woods as well as to subsidized<br>LPG and kerosene.<br><br>Kind
regards<br>M. Nurhuda<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>>
Crispin,Thanks for your quick reply.<br>> Like allways, you have an answer
to everything and enjoy your stay in the<br>> dense forest of Java or
Canada.Replacing trees is not a new idea on the<br>> planet, only linked to
Canada.In the jungle the forest are dense, but not<br>> so heavily
populated, that I know of.If you are still using charcoal for<br>> cooking
(not grilling) in Canda, I wish you good luck.<br>> Pellet have been on the
marked in Sweden for almost three decades.<br>> I was mainly commenting
Paul M, but anyway you are of the same part and<br>> parcel.<br>> I am
not here to entertain you and your fellow followers, but here to<br>>
pinpoint that there are other options than charcoal.There is no need
of<br>> reporting, what we allready know.<br>> We are not forcing
matters on anybody, just trying to give them an option,<br>> linked to
stoves and FUEL.<br>> If I should check all your previous posts, I would be
busy into the next<br>> century and I have better ways to spend my
time.<br>> We dont need to be told obvious facts, again and again, when we
know of<br>> the mountains of vaste materials through out the planet.The
most important<br>> issue is to find ways to utilize it in a smart an
rational way.<br>> To keep on pushing the old fashion metodes dont direct
us in the right<br>> direction, as far as I know.People tend to stick to
old and "secure"<br>> metodes, known for decades, but does it create
inventions and progress?<br>> Have you ever tested a ND gasifier and the
heat transfer to the pot?To<br>> boil water in Norway, we need only 100 C
at sea level, less at higher<br>> altitudes.We do not need tempertures at
the melting point of the pot.The<br>> gasifier produces heat around 550 -
750C to the pot stand, depending on<br>> which type of biomass
used.<br>> I do not consider a charcoal producer, as you say, "a good or
bad guy".i<br>> have met several of them during my time as a forest officer
in Zambia.<br>> They are hard working people, struggeling to feed their
families with some<br>> "cash crop" from the forest, "free of charge".They
do not do it because<br>> they, "like it", but because it is the only
option they have for some<br>> income.<br>> Either way, they normaly get
150 kg of charcoal out of 1 tonne of<br>> wood.Thats the fact of to day in
Zambia and many other African countries.<br>> This should also be reflected
in your calculation on MJ/kg.Most of the<br>> energy content to produce the
charcoal on the truck has been consumed in<br>> the forest and into the
thin air, dont you see?I consider that vaste of<br>> energy, so your
calculation is bit more complex than you seems to know.<br>> The prices are
very much linked to the marked and you cant compare<br>> firewood and
charcoal, as woodchips and charcoal, because of the fact that<br>> woochips
will last longer and be more fuel efficient in a gasifier, than a<br>>
treestone fire or an improved woodstove.On the other hand we do not
need<br>> to use wooden biomass in a gasifier.You cant compare apples and
oranges,<br>> either by taste or price. They are fruits, yes, but still
totally<br>> different.<br>> Why do you think Phiilps have started
producing gasifiers in Maseru?Do you<br>> feel they are stupied or
commented?<br>> Everbody on this list know about the energy chain of
charcoal, I belive,<br>> and do not need to be highlighted every now and
then.<br>> To use residues from platations, like in Rwanda, to produce
charcoal is of<br>> course a better option than using indigionus forest.But
if you dont forsee<br>> an unefficient and harmfull industry, before it is
to late, you are in<br>> trouble".<br>> Enjoy the dense forest of Java,
whilest you can.I have heard stories about<br>> heavy logging to create
palmoil platations and utilize the char as<br>> biochar.<br>> Trees are
renewable, IF you LEAVE them for a while, that is the big<br>> question and
bushfires will come and go wheter we like it or not.<br>>
Otto<br>><br>> From: <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a><br>> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> Date: Sat, 13 Apr
2013 19:54:30 +0700<br>> Subject: Re: [] More on the Alternatives to
Charcoal.<br>><br>> Dear Otto Well it can truly be said that your posts
are entertaining. Let<br>> me (once again) set you straight about some
things you say I am saying by<br>> point out what I am not saying and what
I do say. I think it matters if<br>> you wont to hold a conversation. >I
am on the other hand, very sad to see<br>> the scepticism and disbelive in
people to be able and willing to change in<br>> developing countries. I
have no such skepticism. I am reporting what<br>> people do. You are
welcome to help them change. If the change you bring is<br>> not wanted,
they will not popularise it. >Your arguments are very much<br>> based on
that "people never change” or are to ignorant to even consider<br>> doing
that. I made no such argument at all. I want you (I am asking for<br>> the
how-many-eth time?) to consider the whole equation. I am not<br>>
pre-judging the answer, I am with Paul M looking at all facets of a<br>>
calculation I have made for you in the past. You are welcome to check
the<br>> old posts. The equation does not change if it is all-inclusive.
>…They<br>> should be given an option to be part of the value chain from
raw materials<br>> out of agri- and forest residues to production of
woodchips, pellets and<br>> briquettes, just like in the charcoal
“industry”. I completely agree with<br>> this idea. If we do not
consider the economic impact of decisions about<br>> technology there are
many unintended consequences. Charcoal is definitely<br>> an industry, and
it is a biofuel industry. It is a well-developed industry<br>> with a clear
value chain. >2. We are not talking about raw wood and wood,<br>>
only, but residues. which normally are wasted on the fields and inthe<br>>
forests. There is a great deal of waste from agriculture and forestry.<br>>
About ½ the mass of a tree is left on the forest floor after cutting –<br>>
according to South African data on managed forest plantation. >Charcoal
is<br>> lighter by weight, but consuming in volume. Yes it is less
dense but<br>> people pile the trucks up very high until they are
overloaded. Changing to<br>> moving wood will not move more tons in the
same number of trucks, if that<br>> is what you were getting at. The same
number of overloaded tons would be<br>> moved with a much lower heat
content. They do not dry the wood in rural<br>> areas. Not for long anyway,
but they could. That is part of the equation.<br>> >But dont forget that
in a ND gasifier, or as we like to call it, a Micro<br>> Kiln, you will
utilize the gases in the biomass for cooking and your<br>>
calculation on MJ/kg will fall apart. When we look at the calculation
of<br>> the MJ delivered into the pots, we will see the result. I am
not<br>> speculating, I am calculating. We can calculate for the
present<br>> conditions. We can calculate from improved charcoal production
technology,<br>> utilisation of charcoal fines, utilisation of small
branches presently<br>> wasted, utilisation of agriwastes for charcoal and
the use of slash (the<br>> branches and thinning from plantations). We can
also remember that after a<br>> forest fire most of the partly burned tree
wood that cannot be sawn and<br>> sold is made into charcoal.
>Traditional charcoal making, looses more than<br>> 50-70% of the energy
content in the biomass during production. Yes, let us<br>> suppose it is
50% to be generous to the charmaker think of him as a ‘good<br>> guy’ for a
change. He does a good job and produces 50% of the original<br>> energy in
the form of char. Now let us put a quantity of wood onto a truck<br>> and a
quantity of charcoal of the same mass onto another truck. Who is<br>>
carrying more energy? The charcoal truck of course. How much? About<br>>
double. That means the energy cost of getting the fuel to the customer
is<br>> twice as much. When selling wood from trees as fuelwood, will
it only be<br>> the parts of the tree that are ‘nice to use’ of all of it?
I think only<br>> the bits that will sell. Large pieces can be split but
that is a lot of<br>> work. I am pointing out that not all the wood from a
tree makes saleable<br>> firewood, just like not all the charcoal that gets
made gets sold. Of the<br>> price, the transport is often 50% or more of
the cost to the consumer.<br>> Because the cost of moving wood (per MJ) is
twice that of charcoal, the<br>> landed cost of wood, even if it cost ½ as
much to begin with, is now equal<br>> to that of charcoal. The wood chopper
chopped the tree, dried it a bit,<br>> got ½ as much money for it per MJ
(assuming he is willing to do that) and<br>> because of transport, the cost
per useful MJ in the city is the same as<br>> charcoal. So we have two
fuels with different prices per kg but the same<br>> price per MJ of
useable heat. No, put the fuel into a stove. The charcoal<br>> stove is
going to be 25-40% efficient. Here we have 50% efficient ones but<br>> I am
being generous. Not everyone has good $3 stoves. If the wood stove is<br>>
not as energy efficient (calculated on the raw fuel consumed), it
costs<br>> more to run. Simple as that. Checking prices for wood in Maputo
these<br>> numbers hold up. Wood is over-priced per MJ and people avoid it.
>How can<br>> you argue that charcoal is a better option, when you bring
the raw<br>> materials, sundried, to the consumer and they are actually
making and<br>> burning their own char, while cooking? I am not
arguing for charcoal, I<br>> am reporting the energy train that exists and
the costs and what people<br>> do. I do not do it, they do. >Traditional
charcoal making is also produced<br>> from indigenous trees and bring a
heavy tall to the forest in protected<br>> areas. In some cases it is, in
other, not so. Rwanda has been an<br>> interesting case study for
transforming this. Virtually all the charcoal<br>> sold in Rwanda comes
from woodlots on private land, and there is a lot of<br>> it sold. You can
ask Robert van der Plas about it. >In the Northern<br>> Hemisphere, we
do NOT turn the firewood into charcoal, unless we like to<br>> bring up
high temperatures and melt down iron for steel production, like<br>> in the
old days, when I was young………:) Charcoal is widely sold as a<br>>
cooking fuel in Canada. >Dont be so arrogant and pretend that people
in<br>> developing countries are ignorant and dont SEE, when given an
option, pls.<br>> I have just demonstrated above that people are very
wise about their<br>> decisions regarding fuels and prices and pots and
convenience. Perhaps you<br>> could consider why they prefer to purchase
charcoal. Just because an<br>> industry is not as efficient as it could be
does not mean you shut down<br>> the industry. >3. The Natural
Draft - ND gasifiers, are lit form the<br>> top, yes, and that is the
whole key to pyrolysis and production of<br>> char-coal in an efficient and
proper manner. The ND gasifiers currently<br>> available have several
shortcomings and if they did not, I believe they<br>> would be a lot more
popular. >The Forced Draft (gasifiers driven by fan),<br>>
operates a bit differently and consume the char. Natural draft
gasifiers<br>> are quite capable of burning the char. It is important not
to limit the<br>> discussion to certain stoves that cannot. Alexis makes
fan gasifiers that<br>> make charcoal and do not burn it. Both are possible
and both are<br>> available. >4. I cannot see the difference between
hauling charcoal,<br>> pellets, briquettes or woodchips, pls highlight me.
I have covered that.<br>> Cost per ton is fixed. Energy per ton is not.
Each fuel type is different.<br>> >There is “no” need to develop any new
low prized technology, Its already<br>> there.Even bicykles and wheel
borrows can ferry pellets, briquettes and<br>> woodchips, not in the same
number of bags as charcoal, but very much the<br>> same quantity in terms
of MJ/kg. What is the MJ/kg in the different<br>> fuels? Wood at 16%
moisture is about 15.5 MJ/kg. Charcoal at 2% is about<br>> 29.3 MJ. Chips
are wood. Agricultural waste is about 12-14 MJ. Pelleted<br>> agri-wastes
are about 16. >5. Do you know how much work and efforts in<br>>
terms of manpower, it takes to produce a bag of charcoal? Do you know
how<br>> much to produce an equal amount of energy in the form of chopped
and split<br>> and dried wood? Pellets? Chips? >…The technology is not
NEW and very much<br>> improved over the years The Chinese are producing a
lot and have plans to<br>> produce more in the next years but it has to be
subsidised because of<br>> production and distributions costs. The
machinery suffers a lot. >For how<br>> long can it be possible to chew
on the same biscuit?Isnt it high time to<br>> test a different brand or
content? Ask people to try. We promote anything<br>> that works that people
are willing to buy. I am of course not involved in<br>> the fuel supply
chains, I just watch and measure. >For how long can we<br>> accept to
see people cutting the branch, they are both literally and<br>>
actually sitting on? For as long as trees grow. Trees are renewable
(if<br>> you leave them alone for a while). Western Canada has billions of
them<br>> planted after forests are cut. Thanks for pitching some
interesting<br>> points. RegardsCrispin in Central Java where they are
drowning in biomass<br>> and burn it to get rid of it.<br>>
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