<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19412">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>dear Rebecca</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>straws and even corn stalks can be braided, twisted
into a rope or even tied into bundles.the shape and size of fuel sticks.
the idea is to reduce the exposed surface area so that they do not burn or
gasifiy too fast. they do not need to be compressed by powerfull
equipment. They need to be fed into a rocket stove more frequently.
but the fuel tending is practical. rice husk has more silica and more ash
so it is importatnt to remove the ash more often.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>God Bless</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Larry</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ravermeer@telus.net href="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net">Rebecca A.
Vermeer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mnurhuda@ub.ac.id
href="mailto:mnurhuda@ub.ac.id">M. Nurhuda</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:24
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] More on the
Alternatives to Charcoal.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>Nurhuda,</DIV>
<DIV>Can rice straw and husk be pelleted into bigger chunks about the size of
wood charcoal (1-inch cube or more)? or into sticks like
firewood? I can use charcoal (from wood or coconut shell) or
firewood (small branches), etc. in an eco-kalan in the
Philippines.</DIV>
<DIV>Rebecca Vermeer </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=paul.olivier@esrla.com
href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul Olivier</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 13, 2013 6:00 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=mnurhuda@ub.ac.id href="mailto:mnurhuda@ub.ac.id">M.
Nurhuda</A> ; <A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] More on the Alternatives to
Charcoal.</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Nurhuda,<BR><BR>I
really am delighted to read what you have written in this email. I
wholeheartedly support your approach. If we tap into the enormous amount of
biomass available in the form of agricultural residues, we can go a long way
in meeting the cooking needs of most of the people in Asia. Just imagine the
tonnage of rice hulls and rice straw available in China alone. Just imagine
the colossal amount of wheat straw available in Europe and the USA that could
serve as fuel for gasifiers situated in modern kitchens. No one, rich or poor,
should be relying exclusively on fossil fuels to cook a meal.<BR><BR><A
href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx</A><BR><BR>Many
thanks.<BR>Paul Olivier<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:57 AM, M. Nurhuda <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:mnurhuda@ub.ac.id"
target=_blank>mnurhuda@ub.ac.id</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Dear all stovers,<BR><BR>I am from Java, but not central
Java as Crispin and World Bank team are<BR>mostly visiting.<BR><BR>Dense
forest in Java is now just a story. We do not have anymore dense,<BR>big
rainfall forest. Not only in Java, even in other island like Borneo
or<BR>Sumatra. Probably in Papua there are still big forest, but I am
very<BR>skeptic if in the next 5 or 10 years these dense forests still
do exist.<BR>There are currently massive deforestation due to palm
plantation.<BR><BR>We propose, regarding the clean cookstove initiative
phase I, which<BR>targeting 10 million stove users between 2014-2020,
not to use woods as<BR>fuel, but the agriculture and plantation residues. We
have provided simple<BR>calculation, that rice straw alone can be feedstock
for pellets sufficient<BR>for 164 Million house holds in Indonesia. How does
this number come?<BR><BR>The rice grain production in year in all Indonesia
is 70.4 Million tons.<BR>The ration between dry rice straw to dry rice grain
is always between<BR>1.1-2, but mostly 1.44. The total dry rice straw as
byproduct of rice<BR>farming will be around 100 million tons in year. When
the straw is<BR>converted to pellet, around 10% of mass will be lost. Thus,
from 100<BR>Million tons of rice straw we can get 90 million tons pellets.
Assuming<BR>that each house hold needs only 1,5 kg pellet daily, the
pellet will<BR>suffice for 164 millions house holds.<BR><BR>The agriculture
and plantation residues are not only rice straw, but also<BR>rice husks,
cornstalk, sugar cane, grass and still a lot. All can be used<BR>as pellet
feedstock. There are many big companies in Indonesia ready to<BR>produce the
pellet, if the governments give supports and the market for<BR>pellet is
open.<BR><BR>All we have to do is introducing the change. We have to make
the people<BR>aware that they can not rely at all to log woods as well as to
subsidized<BR>LPG and kerosene.<BR><BR>Kind regards<BR>M.
Nurhuda<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>> Crispin,Thanks for
your quick reply.<BR>> Like allways, you have an answer to everything and
enjoy your stay in the<BR>> dense forest of Java or Canada.Replacing
trees is not a new idea on the<BR>> planet, only linked to Canada.In the
jungle the forest are dense, but not<BR>> so heavily populated, that I
know of.If you are still using charcoal for<BR>> cooking (not grilling)
in Canda, I wish you good luck.<BR>> Pellet have been on the marked in
Sweden for almost three decades.<BR>> I was mainly commenting Paul M, but
anyway you are of the same part and<BR>> parcel.<BR>> I am not here to
entertain you and your fellow followers, but here to<BR>> pinpoint that
there are other options than charcoal.There is no need of<BR>> reporting,
what we allready know.<BR>> We are not forcing matters on anybody, just
trying to give them an option,<BR>> linked to stoves and FUEL.<BR>> If
I should check all your previous posts, I would be busy into the
next<BR>> century and I have better ways to spend my time.<BR>> We
dont need to be told obvious facts, again and again, when we know of<BR>>
the mountains of vaste materials through out the planet.The most
important<BR>> issue is to find ways to utilize it in a smart an rational
way.<BR>> To keep on pushing the old fashion metodes dont direct us in
the right<BR>> direction, as far as I know.People tend to stick to old
and "secure"<BR>> metodes, known for decades, but does it create
inventions and progress?<BR>> Have you ever tested a ND gasifier and the
heat transfer to the pot?To<BR>> boil water in Norway, we need only 100 C
at sea level, less at higher<BR>> altitudes.We do not need tempertures at
the melting point of the pot.The<BR>> gasifier produces heat around 550 -
750C to the pot stand, depending on<BR>> which type of biomass
used.<BR>> I do not consider a charcoal producer, as you say, "a good or
bad guy".i<BR>> have met several of them during my time as a forest
officer in Zambia.<BR>> They are hard working people, struggeling to feed
their families with some<BR>> "cash crop" from the forest, "free of
charge".They do not do it because<BR>> they, "like it", but because it is
the only option they have for some<BR>> income.<BR>> Either way, they
normaly get 150 kg of charcoal out of 1 tonne of<BR>> wood.Thats the fact
of to day in Zambia and many other African countries.<BR>> This should
also be reflected in your calculation on MJ/kg.Most of the<BR>> energy
content to produce the charcoal on the truck has been consumed in<BR>>
the forest and into the thin air, dont you see?I consider that vaste
of<BR>> energy, so your calculation is bit more complex than you seems to
know.<BR>> The prices are very much linked to the marked and you cant
compare<BR>> firewood and charcoal, as woodchips and charcoal, because of
the fact that<BR>> woochips will last longer and be more fuel efficient
in a gasifier, than a<BR>> treestone fire or an improved woodstove.On the
other hand we do not need<BR>> to use wooden biomass in a gasifier.You
cant compare apples and oranges,<BR>> either by taste or price. They are
fruits, yes, but still totally<BR>> different.<BR>> Why do you think
Phiilps have started producing gasifiers in Maseru?Do you<BR>> feel they
are stupied or commented?<BR>> Everbody on this list know about the
energy chain of charcoal, I belive,<BR>> and do not need to be
highlighted every now and then.<BR>> To use residues from platations,
like in Rwanda, to produce charcoal is of<BR>> course a better option
than using indigionus forest.But if you dont forsee<BR>> an unefficient
and harmfull industry, before it is to late, you are in<BR>>
trouble".<BR>> Enjoy the dense forest of Java, whilest you can.I have
heard stories about<BR>> heavy logging to create palmoil platations and
utilize the char as<BR>> biochar.<BR>> Trees are renewable, IF you
LEAVE them for a while, that is the big<BR>> question and bushfires will
come and go wheter we like it or not.<BR>> Otto<BR>><BR>> From: <A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
target=_blank>crispinpigott@gmail.com</A><BR>> To: <A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>> Date: Sat, 13 Apr
2013 19:54:30 +0700<BR>> Subject: Re: [] More on the Alternatives to
Charcoal.<BR>><BR>> Dear Otto Well it can truly be said that your
posts are entertaining. Let<BR>> me (once again) set you straight about
some things you say I am saying by<BR>> point out what I am not saying
and what I do say. I think it matters if<BR>> you wont to hold a
conversation. >I am on the other hand, very sad to see<BR>> the
scepticism and disbelive in people to be able and willing to change
in<BR>> developing countries. I have no such skepticism. I am reporting
what<BR>> people do. You are welcome to help them change. If the change
you bring is<BR>> not wanted, they will not popularise it. >Your
arguments are very much<BR>> based on that "people never change” or are
to ignorant to even consider<BR>> doing that. I made no such argument at
all. I want you (I am asking for<BR>> the how-many-eth time?) to consider
the whole equation. I am not<BR>> pre-judging the answer, I am with Paul
M looking at all facets of a<BR>> calculation I have made for you in the
past. You are welcome to check the<BR>> old posts. The equation does not
change if it is all-inclusive. >…They<BR>> should be given an option
to be part of the value chain from raw materials<BR>> out of agri- and
forest residues to production of woodchips, pellets and<BR>> briquettes,
just like in the charcoal “industry”. I completely agree with<BR>>
this idea. If we do not consider the economic impact of decisions
about<BR>> technology there are many unintended consequences. Charcoal is
definitely<BR>> an industry, and it is a biofuel industry. It is a
well-developed industry<BR>> with a clear value chain. >2. We
are not talking about raw wood and wood,<BR>> only, but residues. which
normally are wasted on the fields and inthe<BR>> forests. There is a
great deal of waste from agriculture and forestry.<BR>> About ½ the mass
of a tree is left on the forest floor after cutting –<BR>> according to
South African data on managed forest plantation. >Charcoal is<BR>>
lighter by weight, but consuming in volume. Yes it is less dense
but<BR>> people pile the trucks up very high until they are overloaded.
Changing to<BR>> moving wood will not move more tons in the same number
of trucks, if that<BR>> is what you were getting at. The same number of
overloaded tons would be<BR>> moved with a much lower heat content. They
do not dry the wood in rural<BR>> areas. Not for long anyway, but they
could. That is part of the equation.<BR>> >But dont forget that in a
ND gasifier, or as we like to call it, a Micro<BR>> Kiln, you will
utilize the gases in the biomass for cooking and your<BR>>
calculation on MJ/kg will fall apart. When we look at the calculation
of<BR>> the MJ delivered into the pots, we will see the result. I am
not<BR>> speculating, I am calculating. We can calculate for the
present<BR>> conditions. We can calculate from improved charcoal
production technology,<BR>> utilisation of charcoal fines, utilisation of
small branches presently<BR>> wasted, utilisation of agriwastes for
charcoal and the use of slash (the<BR>> branches and thinning from
plantations). We can also remember that after a<BR>> forest fire most of
the partly burned tree wood that cannot be sawn and<BR>> sold is made
into charcoal. >Traditional charcoal making, looses more than<BR>>
50-70% of the energy content in the biomass during production. Yes, let
us<BR>> suppose it is 50% to be generous to the charmaker think of him as
a ‘good<BR>> guy’ for a change. He does a good job and produces 50% of
the original<BR>> energy in the form of char. Now let us put a quantity
of wood onto a truck<BR>> and a quantity of charcoal of the same mass
onto another truck. Who is<BR>> carrying more energy? The charcoal truck
of course. How much? About<BR>> double. That means the energy cost of
getting the fuel to the customer is<BR>> twice as much. When
selling wood from trees as fuelwood, will it only be<BR>> the parts of
the tree that are ‘nice to use’ of all of it? I think only<BR>> the bits
that will sell. Large pieces can be split but that is a lot of<BR>> work.
I am pointing out that not all the wood from a tree makes saleable<BR>>
firewood, just like not all the charcoal that gets made gets sold. Of
the<BR>> price, the transport is often 50% or more of the cost to the
consumer.<BR>> Because the cost of moving wood (per MJ) is twice that of
charcoal, the<BR>> landed cost of wood, even if it cost ½ as much to
begin with, is now equal<BR>> to that of charcoal. The wood chopper
chopped the tree, dried it a bit,<BR>> got ½ as much money for it per MJ
(assuming he is willing to do that) and<BR>> because of transport, the
cost per useful MJ in the city is the same as<BR>> charcoal. So we have
two fuels with different prices per kg but the same<BR>> price per MJ of
useable heat. No, put the fuel into a stove. The charcoal<BR>> stove is
going to be 25-40% efficient. Here we have 50% efficient ones but<BR>> I
am being generous. Not everyone has good $3 stoves. If the wood stove
is<BR>> not as energy efficient (calculated on the raw fuel consumed), it
costs<BR>> more to run. Simple as that. Checking prices for wood in
Maputo these<BR>> numbers hold up. Wood is over-priced per MJ and people
avoid it. >How can<BR>> you argue that charcoal is a better option,
when you bring the raw<BR>> materials, sundried, to the consumer and they
are actually making and<BR>> burning their own char, while
cooking? I am not arguing for charcoal, I<BR>> am reporting
the energy train that exists and the costs and what people<BR>> do. I do
not do it, they do. >Traditional charcoal making is also produced<BR>>
from indigenous trees and bring a heavy tall to the forest in
protected<BR>> areas. In some cases it is, in other, not so. Rwanda has
been an<BR>> interesting case study for transforming this. Virtually all
the charcoal<BR>> sold in Rwanda comes from woodlots on private land, and
there is a lot of<BR>> it sold. You can ask Robert van der Plas about it.
>In the Northern<BR>> Hemisphere, we do NOT turn the firewood into
charcoal, unless we like to<BR>> bring up high temperatures and melt down
iron for steel production, like<BR>> in the old days, when I was
young………:) Charcoal is widely sold as a<BR>> cooking fuel in
Canada. >Dont be so arrogant and pretend that people in<BR>>
developing countries are ignorant and dont SEE, when given an option,
pls.<BR>> I have just demonstrated above that people are very wise
about their<BR>> decisions regarding fuels and prices and pots and
convenience. Perhaps you<BR>> could consider why they prefer to purchase
charcoal. Just because an<BR>> industry is not as efficient as it could
be does not mean you shut down<BR>> the industry. >3. The
Natural Draft - ND gasifiers, are lit form the<BR>> top, yes, and
that is the whole key to pyrolysis and production of<BR>> char-coal in an
efficient and proper manner. The ND gasifiers currently<BR>>
available have several shortcomings and if they did not, I believe
they<BR>> would be a lot more popular. >The Forced Draft
(gasifiers driven by fan),<BR>> operates a bit differently and consume
the char. Natural draft gasifiers<BR>> are quite capable of burning
the char. It is important not to limit the<BR>> discussion to certain
stoves that cannot. Alexis makes fan gasifiers that<BR>> make charcoal
and do not burn it. Both are possible and both are<BR>> available. >4.
I cannot see the difference between hauling charcoal,<BR>> pellets,
briquettes or woodchips, pls highlight me. I have covered that.<BR>> Cost
per ton is fixed. Energy per ton is not. Each fuel type is
different.<BR>> >There is “no” need to develop any new low prized
technology, Its already<BR>> there.Even bicykles and wheel borrows can
ferry pellets, briquettes and<BR>> woodchips, not in the same number of
bags as charcoal, but very much the<BR>> same quantity in terms of
MJ/kg. What is the MJ/kg in the different<BR>> fuels? Wood at 16%
moisture is about 15.5 MJ/kg. Charcoal at 2% is about<BR>> 29.3 MJ. Chips
are wood. Agricultural waste is about 12-14 MJ. Pelleted<BR>> agri-wastes
are about 16. >5. Do you know how much work and efforts in<BR>>
terms of manpower, it takes to produce a bag of charcoal? Do you know
how<BR>> much to produce an equal amount of energy in the form of chopped
and split<BR>> and dried wood? Pellets? Chips? >…The technology is not
NEW and very much<BR>> improved over the years The Chinese are producing
a lot and have plans to<BR>> produce more in the next years but it has to
be subsidised because of<BR>> production and distributions costs. The
machinery suffers a lot. >For how<BR>> long can it be possible to chew
on the same biscuit?Isnt it high time to<BR>> test a different brand or
content? Ask people to try. We promote anything<BR>> that works that
people are willing to buy. I am of course not involved in<BR>> the fuel
supply chains, I just watch and measure. >For how long can we<BR>>
accept to see people cutting the branch, they are both literally
and<BR>> actually sitting on? For as long as trees grow. Trees are
renewable (if<BR>> you leave them alone for a while). Western Canada has
billions of them<BR>> planted after forests are cut. Thanks for pitching
some interesting<BR>> points. RegardsCrispin in Central Java where they
are drowning in biomass<BR>> and burn it to get rid of it.<BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> Stoves mailing
list<BR>><BR>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>> <A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>><BR>> to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>> <A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>><BR>>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>> <A href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> Stoves mailing
list<BR>><BR>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>> <A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>><BR>> to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>> <A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>><BR>>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>> <A href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or
Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR><A href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Paul A. Olivier PhD<BR>26/5 Phu Dong Thien
Vuong<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings
Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<BR>Skype address:
Xpolivier<BR><A href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.esrla.com/</A>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing
list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change
your List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing
list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change
your List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>