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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>(comments below...)</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=psanders@ilstu.edu href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">Paul Anderson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=jetter.jim@epa.gov
href="mailto:jetter.jim@epa.gov">jetter jim</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] FW: REQUEST for
complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Ron, Crispin, Jim and all,<BR><BR>One stumbling
point is the difference between the words
Fuel and Energy. We cook
with fuels. We cook with energy. But a piece (1 kg) of
wood (fuel) can deliver 16 MJ of energy if burned to ash or it can deliver
(example) 11 MJ of energy PLUS charcoal that represents 5 MJ of
energy. <BR><BR>The piece of wood is totally changed in both
cases. But in the second case, part of that wood has been
transformed into charcoal, which is certainly not wood. Wood
consumed is 1 kg. Energy consumed is 11 MJ (with charcoal left
over). Two very different results to be reported.<BR><BR>And then
there is the case of one kg of agricultural "refuse" that is 16 MJ if consumed
totally, or 11 MJ plus charcoal if pyrolyzed, and in NEITHER case was there
any consumption of wood. Where deforestation is an issue, stoves
that can use (easily use) agricultural refuse need to be distinguished from
the wood burners. </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># To view the issue
differently...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>Two stoves are being compared for
"Efficiency". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>Given facts from
Tests:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 337pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0
cellPadding=0 width=449 x:str>
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<COL style="WIDTH: 125pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 6107"
width=167>
<COL style="WIDTH: 58pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2816"
width=77>
<COL style="WIDTH: 51pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2486"
span=2 width=68>
<COL style="WIDTH: 52pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2523"
width=69>
<TBODY>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 14.25pt" height=19>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 125pt; HEIGHT: 14.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl22 height=19 width=167><FONT size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 58pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 width=77><FONT size=2 face=Arial>STOVE A</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 51pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 width=68><FONT size=2 face=Arial>STOVE B</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 51pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 width=68><FONT size=2 face=Arial>STOVE C</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 52pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl24 width=69><FONT size=2 face=Arial>STOVE D</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Nature of Fuel</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ag. Waste</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ag.Waste</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Stickwood</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Stickwood</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Fuel Energy Supplied,
MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>10</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>15</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>10</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>15</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Energy to Cooking Pot,
MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Energy in Char,
MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>0</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>0</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Stove Efficiency,
%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl29 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=B4/B3"><FONT size=2
face=Arial>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl29 x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=C4/C3"><FONT size=2
face=Arial>33.33%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl29 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=D4/D3"><FONT size=2
face=Arial>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl30 x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=E4/E3"><FONT size=2
face=Arial>33.33%</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># So, we see that for the
same cooking task, Stove A and stove C have the best efficiency, both at
50%</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>while Stoves B and D also have the
same efficiency, both at 33.33%</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Now it is up to the
Customer:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>IF HE WANTS CHAR</STRONG>,
he chooses Stove B if he has Ag Waste for fuel, or stove D, if he has
stickwood fuel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>IF HE DOES NOT WANT
CHAR</STRONG>, he chooses Stove A if he has Ag Waste for fuel, or stove
C, if he has stickwood fuel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Thats all the Customer needs to
know, in order to make the best choice of stove for his
circumstances.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Even when the stove testing is conducted with wood
as the standard fuel, the test RESULTS need to clearly reveal that wood did
NOT need to be burned.</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># This is an efficiency test. This
is not a test of the merits of using Ag. Waste or Stickwood. The test tests
teh stove with whatever fuel is supplied.</FONT><BR><BR>In the movies, "No
animals were harmed in the production of this film."<BR>For SOME cookstoves,
"No wood was burned in the cooking of these meals (or the conducting of these
tests)."</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># That is an issue above and
beyond Stove Efficiency Testing.</FONT><BR><BR>What happens to the charcoal
(whether burned or as biochar or otherwise lost) should not be the
issue.</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># <STRONG>The "Efficiency Test" is
a measure of "efficiency of utilization of fuel by the device being
tested."</STRONG> Regardless of the value of the char production, the simple
fact is that the char represents non-utilization of the fuel supplied to the
device being tested. The fact that the char could be used in another stove, or
could be used as Biochar for soil Application is another issue entirely. If we
take credit for the fact that the char could be used elsewhere in another
system, we could really confuse the issue if we claim such things as
:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>" 20% of the supplied energy was
lost through the sidewalls of the stove but it heated the kitchen
beneficially, so I think the Stove Efficiency should be increased by
20%</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>" I am using the stove to heat a
small enclosed greenhouse, and I am venting the stack gases inside to use the
CO2 by the plants. Since the fuel contained 50% carbon, and it was burned to
completion, I claim 100% 'Efficiency of utilization of the fuel."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># External, or "subsequent usage
benefits" are issues outside the scope of "efficiency of use of fuel by the
device being tested.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><BR><BR>Paul<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 4/22/2013 6:13 PM, <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:2087372561.1069936.1366672434151.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
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<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Crispin,
Jim, and List<BR><BR>See few comments below<BR><BR>
<HR id=zwchr>
<B>From: </B><BR><B>To: </B>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <A
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></A><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Monday, April 22, 2013 8:47:51 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] FW:
REQUEST for complete sets of raw data
of cookstove tests.<BR><BR>
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<P class=MsoPlainText>Dear Jim and Anyone watching</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>I won't have time to dig through the messages on this
thread that were in limbo. If something is really important to someone, ask
again.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>With regard to the char remaining and the wood that
has been burned on one end (fuel left over from tests) Harold Annegarn and I
have a proposal for how to deal with stoves that can use fuel remaining from
a previous burn. In principle, the test should be started with the fuel left
over from a previous test. In other words a cooking task that is replicated
a number of times in which the fuel left over goes into the stove for the
subsequent task provides an opportunity to measure (quite accurately) the
raw fuel drawn from the pile.</P>
<P class=MsoPlainText>
<B>[RWL1: I suggest that any test has to account for
stoves being used to BOTH cook AND make char</B>. I don't sense you
will concur with this variation.<B> Or can you?</B></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><B> I believe that forcing the reuse
of char in many/most char-making stoves will not be the way the char will
normally be used - and therefore will give erroneous
results.</B><BR></P><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<P>
<HR>
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