<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><div>List. Cc Kevin</div><div><br></div><div> Sorry, no apologies on this one. </div><div><br></div><div> The issue on the table is whether char-making stoves have an important connection to AGW. Since you and a few others disagree and continue to try to distance the two topics, I think it valid to ask if it is because you/they are a climate denier? ( Kevin and I have had off- list discussions, but he is free to say otherwise anytime on his AGW views.)</div><div><br></div><div> To me it is important to try to educate deniers, and analyze their reasons for denial. I just can't comprehend such a view in 2013.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><div><br>On Apr 22, 2013, at 8:05 AM, "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19412">
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<div><font face="Arial"><strong>Dear Ron</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong></strong></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>I would suggest that your approach, as
presented below, is some combination of an Ad Hominum Attack,
and an un-scientific witch hunt. The Bioenergy lists should be a source of Truth
and Fact, based on Science, but you persist in tainting Stove and
Agricultural issues involving char with AGW, Carbon Credit, Climate Change,
and "Denier" considerations. </strong></font></div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial"></font><font face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>You could become a "Friend of Biochar" if you
worked toward understanding how biochar can be used to advantage by Farmers and
Growers, in that if Farmers and Growers find out how to use biochar
economically, it will be used on a widespread basis in Agriculture.
Your AGW interests will then be advanced by "Market
Pull".</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong></strong></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>If you disagree with the views of List Members,
please do so by refuting their views with palpable evidence showing why you feel
they are wrong, and not with ad hominum attacks.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong></strong></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>Thank you.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong></strong></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>Kevin Chisholm</strong></font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">Ron</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> ; <a title="paul.olivier@esrla.com" href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul Olivier</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 21, 2013 11:52
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative
to Charcoal</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Paul and list:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> Thanks for a very complete response. This is to hope
Crispin will respond fully.</div>
<div>If so, I ask him three more to add to yours</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> a. why he has chosen to NOT join the sister
biochar lists, given the heavy emphasis there as well in char-making
stoves.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> b. whether much of his knowledge on biochar has
come from WUWT. If not what source (i am asking for a few specifics -not
generalities) has he for his statement below</div>
<div><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); " class="Apple-style-span">
</span><blockquote type="cite" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">There
have been many claims made for biochar which, based on what I read and
hear from people who read much more broadly, that don’t stand up to close
scrutiny.</span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
<div> c. Does he see the connection I do between his being
a "climate denier" and being a skeptic on biochar?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>On Apr 21, 2013, at 5:25 PM, Paul Olivier <<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">See comments below.<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 1:13 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Jeff<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Thanks
for that contribution.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
point of Paul’s description is that in the circumstances where he is, it
works. It works on several levels and it will probably continue to work
for a long time.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
scenario was discussed on this list several times before, going back
years, but there was nowhere that all the ingredients were present. One of
the things that makes the rice hull char attractive is the existence, on a
big scale apparently, of land that benefits from the addition of the char,
and growing of crops that benefit from it.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">There
have been many claims made for biochar which, based on what I read and
hear from people who read much more broadly, that don’t stand up to close
scrutiny. </span></p></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Crispin, I take issue with this statement. The biochar research that I
have been involved with (that is, biochar from my gasifiers) has been done
in three different countries, and it involved seven universities. More than
20 experiments have been carried out, and in none of these experiments did
biochar have negative effects. Contrary to what you might believe, this
research does stand up to close scrutiny. These people are not just reading
about biochar, but they are actually doing biochar research. I know many of
these researchers, and they are not engaged in deceit. They are trying to
help poor farmers understand the benefits of biochar.<br></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
same holds for permaculture </span></p></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>What's wrong with permaculture? <br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">and
improved stove and lots of things, so there is nothing ‘special’ about
char, it is just that people get enthusiastic about something and wish it
were universally true.</span></p></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Crispin, it is hard for me to believe that you actually wrote
this!<br>How do you know that that there is nothing special about
biochar?<br>Is this your field of expertise?<br>Have you actually been
involved in biochar research?<br>I strongly suggest that you read the
following: <br><br><a href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Agronomy_Carter%20et%20al%202013%2002%2017.pdf" target="_blank">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Agronomy_Carter%20et%20al%202013%2002%2017.pdf</a><br><a href="http://www.lrrd.org/public-lrrd/proofs/lrrd2501/chha25008.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lrrd.org/public-lrrd/proofs/lrrd2501/chha25008.htm</a><br><a href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd23/2/siso23032.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd23/2/siso23032.htm</a><br><a href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24026.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24026.htm</a><br><a href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24039.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24039.htm</a><br><a href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24034.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24034.htm</a><br><a href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Biochar%20utilization%20in%20Rice%20crop%20on%20Tuk%20Vil%20Luvisol.pdf" target="_blank">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Biochar%20utilization%20in%20Rice%20crop%20on%20Tuk%20Vil%20Luvisol.pdf</a><br><a href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/11/leng24199.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/11/leng24199.htm</a><br><br>If you
really want to understand the benefits of biochar, please read this
book:<br><a href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Johannes%20Lehmann%2C%20Stephen%20Joseph-Biochar%20for%20environmental%20management_%20science%20and%20technology.pdf" target="_blank">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Johannes%20Lehmann%2C%20Stephen%20Joseph-Biochar%20for%20environmental%20management_%20science%20and%20technology.pdf</a><br>
<br></div>
<div>The people who wrote and edited this book are not charlatans. They are
not deceitful. They are as good in their science as anyone could possibly
be. <br></div>
<div>Crispin, the moment you start doing biochar research of your own, then
you might have something serious to say in this regard.<br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">No
problem, we can live with filters on information to sift out what is
beneficial and in what circumstances the claims how true. Independent
investigation will support it if it is.</span></p></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Then do the independent investigation yourself. <br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">As
I understand if, the Japanese have being doing this the longest and they
are very circumscribed about what claims are made for biochar.
</span></p></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Some of the best biochar research was done by the Japanese (Ogawa et
al) back in the early 90's. They showed how biochar positively impacts the
growth of AM fungi. This is explained in the book by Lehmann and
Joseph.<br></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It
is particular soils, particular crops and particular treatment of the char
(temperature, species) that are in combination, what gives improved
results. This theme constantly appears in the literature. As has been
pointed out, just randomly putting char into soil can have negative
consequences – it depends on the soil conditions. The last thing we need
is a case of the char causing more harm than good while claims are made
that it is improving things. The stove community should be working with
agricultural trials experts.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
read in the past that adding rice hull ash to rice fields is beneficial –
maybe because the silica is extra-available, don’t know. Not my field.
</span></p></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>If this is not your field, then on what authority do you base your
statements about rice hull biochar or rice hull ash?<br></div>
<div>Again, I challenge you: do the research, as Preston, Leng and Shackley
have done.<br></div>
<div>What upsets me here is that I know well some of the people who have
been conducting research with rice hull biochar.<br></div>
<div>They know agriculture quite well, they have impeccable scientific
credentials, and they, unlike you, are experts in this field.<br></div>
<div>Then you come along, without any basis in fact, and question their
research as not being scientific.<br></div>
<div>Wow! <br></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
am just glad we have a working example of using gas and char that makes
economic sense. </span></p></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>It only makes economic sense, Crispin, if biochar plays a positive role
in promoting plant and animal growth. If biochar does not play a positive
role, we might as well burn it.<br><br></div>
<div>Thanks.<br></div>
<div>Paul Olivier<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<span><font color="#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></span></p><span><font color="#888888">
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></font></span></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
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site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien
Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings
Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address:
Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a> </div></div></div></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<p>
</p><hr>
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