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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I append my original message, on this thread, below. What
leads you to believe that I only equate fuel with wood and trees?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Equally, why do you feel that Crispin only equates fuel
only with wood and trees?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>In my clip from an excel spreadsheet, I clearly show both
Ag. Waste and Stick Fuel stoves in my example, with no prejudice or
advantage extended to either. Additionally, I show both "char producing"
and "full combustion" stoves, with no prejudice or advantage extended to either.
I leave it entirely to the Customer to decide which stove system is best for
him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>How is that being unscientific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=psanders@ilstu.edu href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">Paul Anderson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:13
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] FW: REQUEST for
complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Dear Crispin and Kevin,<BR><BR>You are happy to
talk about Fuel efficiency, and use ENERGY numbers. And then
immediately discuss forests being destroyed.<BR><BR>Please get past the
equating of fuel with wood and trees. Beating on that drum
constantly is unscientific.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 4/24/2013 9:49 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:002b01ce40fa$edffd090$c9ff71b0$@gmail.com type="cite">
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Dear
Kevin<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">You analysis is correct.
When rating the performance of a stove from a fuel use perspective, the
chart is correct:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Two
stoves are being compared for "Efficiency". </SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Given
facts from Tests:</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 337pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"
class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=449>
<TBODY>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 14.25pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; WIDTH: 125pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 14.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm"
width=167>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; WIDTH: 58pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 14.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm"
width=77>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">STOVE
A</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; WIDTH: 51pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 14.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm"
width=68>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">STOVE
B</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; WIDTH: 51pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 14.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm"
width=68>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">STOVE
C</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; WIDTH: 52pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 14.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm"
width=69>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">STOVE
D</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Nature of
Fuel</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ag.
Waste</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ag.Waste</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Stickwood</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Stickwood</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fuel
Energy Supplied, MJ</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">10</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">15</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">10</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">15</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Energy to
Cooking Pot, MJ</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Energy in
Char, MJ</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">0</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">0</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Stove
Efficiency, %</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">50.00%</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">33.33%</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">50.00%</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">33.33%</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">If someone is interested
in the char, it can be reported. What Ron is proposing, to add that heat
energy available in the char back into the mix, is akin to considering the
energy efficiency to be the fuel efficiency which is precisely what
created for us a problem in the first place. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">The energy value of the
char came from somewhere. Consider a stove that takes 2 tons of forest per
year. If it produces ¼ of a ton of forest’s worth of energy in the form of
char, fine. Say so. But saying so does not reduce the two tons of forest
it takes. If you have (as you pointed out) a second stove that can utilise
the charcoal, then that can be viewed as a ‘system’ by all and sundry, but
is still does not change the fact that Stove 1 takes two tons of forest
each year which is what the reported fuel consumption should be. No smoke
and mirrors.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Burying the char as a soil
amendment instead of burning it merely takes us back to the two tons of
forest per year draw-down and returns it to the environment in an
(apparently) inert, solid form.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">What has been happening
that is wrong, in my view, is that stoves that take off 3 tons of forest
per year have been getting credit for taking only one ton and proclaimed
to be ‘better’ and ‘more fuel efficient’ than a two-ton stove. Plainly
this is not the case and the test method has to report the fuel
consumption correctly. It is a problem that the UNFCCC methodology does
not handle this well because it is being used for CDM
trades.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d">Regards<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d">Crispin<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<FIELDSET class=mimeAttachmentHeader></FIELDSET> <BR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"><FONT
color=#810081>Kevin</FONT></A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
color=#0000ff>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</FONT></A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=jetter.jim@epa.gov
href="mailto:jetter.jim@epa.gov"><FONT color=#0000ff>jetter jim</FONT></A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 23, 2013 6:49
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] FW: REQUEST for
complete sets of raw data of cookstovetests.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>(comments below...)</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=psanders@ilstu.edu href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><FONT
color=#0000ff>Paul Anderson</FONT></A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
color=#0000ff>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</FONT></A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=jetter.jim@epa.gov
href="mailto:jetter.jim@epa.gov"><FONT color=#0000ff>jetter
jim</FONT></A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 23, 2013 4:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] FW: REQUEST
for complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Ron, Crispin, Jim and all,<BR><BR>One
stumbling point is the difference between the words
Fuel and Energy.
We cook with fuels. We cook with energy. But a
piece (1 kg) of wood (fuel) can deliver 16 MJ of energy if burned to ash
or it can deliver (example) 11 MJ of energy PLUS charcoal that
represents 5 MJ of energy. <BR><BR>The piece of wood is
totally changed in both cases. But in the second case, part
of that wood has been transformed into charcoal, which is certainly not
wood. Wood consumed is 1 kg. Energy
consumed is 11 MJ (with charcoal left over). Two very
different results to be reported.<BR><BR>And then there is the case of
one kg of agricultural "refuse" that is 16 MJ if consumed totally, or 11
MJ plus charcoal if pyrolyzed, and in NEITHER case was there any
consumption of wood. Where deforestation is an issue, stoves
that can use (easily use) agricultural refuse need to be distinguished
from the wood burners. </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># To view the issue
differently...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>Two stoves are being
compared for "Efficiency". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>Given facts from
Tests:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 337pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0
cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=449 x:str>
<COLGROUP>
<COL
style="WIDTH: 125pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 6107"
width=167>
<COL
style="WIDTH: 58pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2816"
width=77>
<COL
style="WIDTH: 51pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2486"
span=2 width=68>
<COL
style="WIDTH: 52pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2523"
width=69>
<TBODY>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 14.25pt" height=19>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 125pt; HEIGHT: 14.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl22 height=19 width=167><FONT size=2
face=Arial> </FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 58pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 width=77><FONT size=2 face=Arial>STOVE A</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 51pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 width=68><FONT size=2 face=Arial>STOVE B</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 51pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 width=68><FONT size=2 face=Arial>STOVE C</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 52pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl24 width=69><FONT size=2 face=Arial>STOVE D</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Nature of
Fuel</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ag. Waste</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ag.Waste</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Stickwood</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Stickwood</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Fuel Energy Supplied,
MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>10</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>15</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>10</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>15</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Energy to Cooking
Pot, MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Energy in Char,
MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>0</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>0</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27 x:num><FONT size=2 face=Arial>5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Stove Efficiency,
%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl29 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=B4/B3"><FONT size=2
face=Arial>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl29 x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=C4/C3"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>33.33%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl29 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=D4/D3"><FONT size=2
face=Arial>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl30 x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=E4/E3"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>33.33%</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># So, we see that for
the same cooking task, Stove A and stove C have the best efficiency,
both at 50%</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>while Stoves B and D also
have the same efficiency, both at 33.33%</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Now it is up to the
Customer:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>IF HE WANTS
CHAR</STRONG>, he chooses Stove B if he has Ag Waste for fuel, or stove
D, if he has stickwood fuel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>IF HE DOES NOT WANT
CHAR</STRONG>, he chooses Stove A if he has Ag Waste for fuel, or
stove C, if he has stickwood fuel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Thats all the Customer
needs to know, in order to make the best choice of stove for his
circumstances.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Even when the stove testing is conducted with
wood as the standard fuel, the test RESULTS need to clearly reveal that
wood did NOT need to be burned.</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># This is an efficiency
test. This is not a test of the merits of using Ag. Waste or Stickwood.
The test tests teh stove with whatever fuel is
supplied.</FONT><BR><BR>In the movies, "No animals were harmed in the
production of this film."<BR>For SOME cookstoves, "No wood was burned in
the cooking of these meals (or the conducting of these tests)."</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># That is an issue above and
beyond Stove Efficiency Testing.</FONT><BR><BR>What happens to the
charcoal (whether burned or as biochar or otherwise lost) should not be
the issue.</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># <STRONG>The "Efficiency
Test" is a measure of "efficiency of utilization of fuel by the device
being tested."</STRONG> Regardless of the value of the char production,
the simple fact is that the char represents non-utilization of the fuel
supplied to the device being tested. The fact that the char could be
used in another stove, or could be used as Biochar for soil Application
is another issue entirely. If we take credit for the fact that the char
could be used elsewhere in another system, we could really confuse the
issue if we claim such things as :</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>" 20% of the supplied energy
was lost through the sidewalls of the stove but it heated the kitchen
beneficially, so I think the Stove Efficiency should be increased by
20%</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>" I am using the stove to
heat a small enclosed greenhouse, and I am venting the stack gases
inside to use the CO2 by the plants. Since the fuel contained 50%
carbon, and it was burned to completion, I claim 100% 'Efficiency of
utilization of the fuel."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># External, or "subsequent
usage benefits" are issues outside the scope of "efficiency of use of
fuel by the device being tested.</FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>