<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<STYLE type=text/css>P {
MARGIN: 0px
}
</STYLE>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19412"></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> ; <A
title=jetter.jim@epa.gov href="mailto:jetter.jim@epa.gov">jetter jim</A> ; <A
title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2013 1:21
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative
to Charcoal</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin,
List +2 ccs<BR><BR>Kevin:<BR><BR> Thank for proving my
point.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
What point? Please be more specific so that I can address
it.<BR></STRONG><BR> Let me try again. This chain started
this week with Jim Jetter, describing what he will be reporting on ALL
stoves. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># I
have no problem with that, except as follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>1: The
more that is included in the report, the more costly, complex and potentially
confusing the report may become.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>2:
Greater cost of the more complex tests and reports may discourage independent
testing</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>3: If
"Testing and Reporting" of "Char Making Stoves" costs more
than "Testing and Reporting for Full Combustion Stoves", it is not
fair or sensible to burden Full Combustion stoves with the extra cost and
complexity associated with the complexity and confusion of the "Char Making
Stove Report." Separate Reports for Char Producing and Full Combustion Stoves
would be more fair, and would reduce testing costs for the Full
Combustion stoves.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> He will
reporting new efficiency quantities E2 (no char value) and E3 (only char
value), to go with the previous E1(both). I approved. You produced a
chart only dealing with E2 (no char value). I corrected your chart and
wondered why you left out E1 and E3. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
OK... I show a copy of my original Table (1), followed by a copy of the new
Table (2) showing results reported as E1, E2, and E3.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><IMG border=0
hspace=0 alt="" align=baseline
src="cid:8D77AD9AFA8F44709D357492AE337498@usera594fda0bf"></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Table 2</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 330pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0
cellPadding=0 width=439 x:str>
<COLGROUP>
<COL style="WIDTH: 122pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 5961"
width=163>
<COL style="WIDTH: 53pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2560"
span=2 width=70>
<COL style="WIDTH: 50pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2450"
width=67>
<COL style="WIDTH: 52pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2523"
width=69>
<TBODY>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 14.25pt" height=19>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 122pt; HEIGHT: 14.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=19 width=163><FONT size=2> </FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 53pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 width=70><FONT size=2>STOVE A</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 53pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 width=70><FONT size=2>STOVE B</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 50pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 width=67><FONT size=2>STOVE C</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 52pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27 width=69><FONT size=2>STOVE D</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>Nature of Fuel</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl22><FONT size=2>Ag. Waste</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl22><FONT size=2>Ag. Waste</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl22><FONT size=2>Stickwood</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl29><FONT size=2>Stickwood</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>Fuel Energy Supplied, MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 x:num><FONT size=2>10</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 x:num><FONT size=2>15</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 x:num><FONT size=2>10</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl30 x:num><FONT size=2>15</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>Energy to Cooking Pot, MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 x:num><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 x:num><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 x:num><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl30 x:num><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>Energy in Char, MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 x:num><FONT size=2>0</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 x:num><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23 x:num><FONT size=2>0</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl30 x:num><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>E1</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=B4/(B3-B5)"><FONT
size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=C4/(C3-C5)"><FONT
size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=D4/(D3-D5)"><FONT
size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl31 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=E4/(E3-E5)"><FONT
size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>E2</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=B4/B3"><FONT size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24 x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=C4/C3"><FONT
size=2>33.33%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24 x:num="0.5" x:fmla="=D4/D3"><FONT size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl31 x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=E4/E3"><FONT
size=2>33.33%</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl32 height=18><FONT size=2>E3</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl33 x:num="0" x:fmla="=B5/B3"><FONT size=2>0.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl33 x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=C5/C3"><FONT
size=2>33.33%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl33 x:num="0" x:fmla="=D5/D3"><FONT size=2>0.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl34 x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=E5/E3"><FONT
size=2>33.33%</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Which Table is likely to be more helpful, transparent, and meaningful to
the Customer? Note also that E3 is meaningless. It is not "Charcoal Production
efficiency", and the concept of "Charcoal Production Efficiency" as calculated
by the proposed method is inherently wrong. What we thus have is as
follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>E1
says all the stoves have the same efficiency and it doesn't matter what stove
the Customer selects.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>E2
says stoves A and C are more efficient than stoves B and D</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>E3
says that Stoves B and D are more efficient than Stoves A and
D.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Including E1, E2, and E3 in one table is an enlightening expose.... What it
conclusively proves is that:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>"Figures
never lie, but liars often figure."</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You continue
to prove my supposition that is because you are a climate denier.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Since you refuse to define a "Climate Denier", as requested below, I
categorically state that you are wrong, and additionally, I state for the
record that "I believe there is a climate, and I am therefore a climate
believer." <BR></STRONG><BR> Yes, it is true that I push this E3
issue because I am a "climate believer". </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Well, I am a "Climate Believer" also, but that has nothing to do with "Stove
Testing Science". E3 is termed "Char Production efficiency", and is an
absolutely faulty concept as calculated in Table 2 above. If you support this
calculation, you are Believing in an inherently wrong, misleading,
and meaningless calculation.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> But
also because of the soil improvement value of char becoming biochar.
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
What is "Biochar"? The IBI definition of "Biochar" is: </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>" <EM>Biochar
is a solid material obtained from the carbonisation of biomass.</EM> " (First
line at </STRONG><A
href="http://www.biochar-international.org/biochar"><STRONG>http://www.biochar-international.org/biochar</STRONG></A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>From
</STRONG><A
href="http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Biochar_Standards_V1.1.pdf"><STRONG>http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Biochar_Standards_V1.1.pdf</STRONG></A><STRONG> ,
we get a different definition of "Biochar":</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>" </STRONG><FONT
size=3 face=TTE27FD3D0t00><FONT size=3 face=TTE27FD3D0t00><STRONG>6 Biochar is
a solid material obtained from the thermochemical conversion of biomass in
an</STRONG>
<P><STRONG>7 oxygen-limited environment.</STRONG></FONT></FONT><STRONG>
"</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG> Even the International Biochar Initiative is reluctant to
make a solid connection between "char", "charcoal" and "soil".</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG></STRONG> </P>
<P><STRONG>#We have an opportunity here to elevate "Stove Testing" to a clear,
accurate and transparent Science".</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>Why pervert "Stove Science" to support a
product ("Biochar") that even it's major supporter
(IBI) will not define clearly? With the broad and different definitions
of "Biochar" given above, how do we know if the char from char producing
stoves will get used for soil improvement? How do we even know that the char
produced by "char producing stoves" that you and others want to use for
"biochar" is economically valuable to the Farmer?</STRONG></P>
<P> </P></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">So you are
harming the Paul Olivier (soil) position, when you admire his ppt and
approach, but want to (apparently) only report E2. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># The
Tables above are neutral. They are neither harmful nor helpful to any stove
system. They simply report on the facts of the stove. The second Table,
however, is likely to be extremely confusing to all but the most sophisticated
reader. Although Paul Oliver wrote a posting primarily directed to Crispin, I
will take the liberty of replying to it, expanding on my views of his
excellent project.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> To
repeat, there is no atmosphere-soil conflict with wanting a stove report to
include E3 (E1 already being there). I also like reporting E2,
since it supports the need for E3.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
This is your first use of the concept "atmosphere-soil conflict". Where was it
used before? Could you please explain it, and its relevance to the present
discussion?<BR></STRONG><BR> I still have no idea what you
and Crispin (also a climate denier) </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># It
is "bad form" to badmouth people. You appear to be hiding behind loosey goosey
concepts, rather than to come out into the Clear Light of Science.
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">want to
modify in what Jim Jetter proposes. My suspicion remains on
motivations when you say below:<BR> <FONT
face=Arial><STRONG>"Stoves" and "AGW" are two very separate issues...
"</STRONG></FONT><BR><BR><STRONG># I wish to confirm the
correctness of your suspicion that "Stoves" and "AGW" are two very separate
issues. The "AGW Believer Folks" seem to be bent on "Building a Carbon
Credit Bridge" or a "Climate Bridge" that connects "AGW" and
"Stoves". This then opens the door to "proving" virtually anything they want
to prove. This is well illustrated by Table 2, which I would call
"The Pick Your Favourite Efficiency Report".</STRONG> <STRONG>That
is not very helpful for the Stove Buying Customer, who has his own
specific stove requirements and circumstances.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
I ask again, what do you and Crispin want to see reported by Jim?</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># My
views are my views, and I cannot speak for either Crispin or Jim Jetter. What
I would like to see in "Stove Test Reports" is a true, valid and
scientific report on the "True and Relevant Facts About Stoves." I want
to see "Stove Tests that Test Stoves" and which do not "muddy the water" with
external agendas and considerations. Lets start with a definition as a "Stove"
as follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===> 1:
A Stove is a device or system whose purpose is cooking and/or heating.
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>There
are thus three basic types of stoves:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>a:
Stoves whose primary purpose is cooking</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>b:
Stoves with a dual purpose of cooking AND heating</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>c:
Stoves whose primary purpose is space heating through warming of air
in the living space.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Stoves
that heat water for space heating or process requirements are considered
"boilers" and established test procedures are already in place.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Then
I would deal with the issues of greatest importance to most "real world
people." The fundamental issue of greatest concern to most "Real World Stove
people" is: </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===> 2:
"How much fuel must be supplied to the stove being tested , in order to
"get the desired job, or jobs, done"? </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>This
"Fundamental Efficiency" is the "Fuel Efficiency", and it would be defined as
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>"The
percentage of fuel energy supplied that is used to accomplish the
desired task, or tasks."</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#Now,
if the stove being tested is intended to be PRIMARILY a "Cooking Stove", then
I would test for, and report on, the energy required to accomplish the
desired "cooking task". I would consider "water heating in a pot" as the
equivalent to "cooking water" </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===>
3:1 For such "Cooking stoves" I would define Fuel Efficiency as
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
("Energy into the Cooking Task") divided by ("Energy in the Fuel
Supplied") </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Note
also that there are different cooking tasks, and different stove
configurations, such as grills, griddles, "directly heated pot cookers",
indirectly heated pot cookers, oven cookers, etc.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Some stoves are required to do a "Dual Function", to cook AND to heat the
living space.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===>
3:2 For "Dual function Stoves", I would define fuel efficiency as
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
("Energy into the Cooking Task" + "Energy into the Living Space") divided by
("Energy in the Fuel Supplied")</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Some stoves are intended for "Space Heating Only", and have no Cooking
Function. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===>
3:3 For Space Heating Stoves, I would define fuel efficiency as</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
("Energy into the Living space") divided by (Energy in the Fuel
supplied")</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># The
competent "Stove Testing People", like Crispin and Jim, know all about
"Mass and Energy Balances", Siegert Combustion Testing, pollution
measurement, etc. They are quite capable of configuring tests and reports that
truthfully, meaningfully, clearly and repeatably report on the
performance of specific stoves. Such methods "Digitize the generalities, and
eliminate the loosey-gooseys". They enable the Stove Buyer to buy a stove to
accomplish what he wants to accomplish. Some stove systems will require
electric power, for fans, feeders, controls, conveyors, etc. A "Mass and
Energy Balance" would capture these energy inputs and show them appropriately.
Stack Gas Outputs would be measured for at least for CO2, temperature, and
particulate matter. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Now, some people may want to buy a stove that produces Char. That is fine, if
that is what they want. They are the Customer, and if they want a stove that
produces char, they should be able to buy a stove that produces the char they
want. There should be a Test Protocol that shows how much charcoal it produces
when a given amount of input biomass is supplied to it. Now, since "all chars
are not equal", the tests that test a stove that produces char as a prime
purpose should incorporate additional tests that enable the Char Stove
Customer to select the best such stove from a selection. For example, some
Customers may wish to produce "Fuel Grade Char", or perhaps 'Smokeless Char"
or perhaps "Char for Subsequent Activation" or perhaps "char for Water
Treatment' or perhaps "Medicinal Grade Char", or perhaps "Char for
Agricultural Purposes", or perhaps "Carbon Credit Char for Climate
Amelioration Purposes". Since such stoves are intended primarily for char
production, I feel they should be in a class of their own. We define such a
"stove" as follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===> 4:
A "Char Making Stove" is a device or system whose purpose is the production of
Char and/or to provide a cooking and/or heating functions. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Parameters that should be noted, measured and tested for could
include:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Fuel Type</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Fuel Burn Rate</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Productively used energy, such as for cooking, space heating, water heating,
process heat, etc</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>* Gas
sent to pipeline for use in a secondary system... external stove, kiln,
furnace, boiler, engine, etc</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Energy sent to Flare stack</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Stack Loss energy</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>* Shell
loss</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Fuel Efficiency Calculation</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Char Yield Calculation</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Liquids yield, and energy content of liquids </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Grade of char produced,</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Power consumption for fans, blowers, pumps, conveyors etc, if
relevant.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Etc.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># My
interest, in the context of "Stove Testing", is in stoves
intended primarily for cooking and/or heating, having maximum fuel
efficiency. This means "full combustion stoves", in that char production
is an energy loss, and a char producing stove cannot have as high a fuel
efficiency as a "full combustion stove" that utilizes the supplied fuel more
effectively. I am also interested, in other arenas, in:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Char Producing Stoves, whose primary purpose is Char Production and/or cooking
and/or heating</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Gasifier stoves whose primary purpose is the production or "Heating grade Gas"
or "engine grade Gas" with or without the production of char.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Retort systems, whose primary purpose is the production of char, with/without
productive utilization of pryolysis gases.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>In
summary then, there are many "Stove Systems" and many Customer Requirements
for utilizing various biomass products as a source of energy or a source of
char. Because of the differing factors of importance in various "classes of
stove systems", it is not sensible to attempt to assemble a single "One Test
Protocol Fits All" approach to stove testing. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG> </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Ron, you did not respond to my request for a Public Retraction as requested
below. Please retract your erroneous statements about my views and lack of
thoroughness. I consider your statements to be irresponsible Professional
Insults. Alternatively, please show where I made the stated oversights. I
would ask you to be more professional with expression of your alternative
views in the future.</STRONG></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Kevin Chisholm</FONT>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></STRONG><BR>Ron<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR id=zwchr>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>From:
</B>"Kevin" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><BR><B>To: </B>"Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com>, "jetter jim"
<jetter.jim@epa.gov><BR><B>Sent: </B>Friday, April 26, 2013 8:44:26
AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative to Charcoal<BR><BR>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>Ron</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> ; <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target=_blank>Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 24, 2013 2:37
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative
to Charcoal</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>List. Cc Kevin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> Sorry, no apologies on this one. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># I did not ask for an apology. I was simply
commenting on what I feel is your inappropriate approach to dealing
with issues. </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> The issue on the table is whether char-making stoves have an
important connection to AGW. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># No. This is the Stoves List, and the issues
is how biochar relates to stoves.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Since you and a few others disagree and continue to try to distance the
two topics, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># "Stoves" and "AGW" are two very separate
issues, and there may, or may not, be an overlap. If there was no AGW
Issue, there would still be Stoves. I feel it is very important to
understand the issues of each separately, so that "areas of overlap" can be
discovered and used most advantageously. "Stoves" and "AGW" should rise or
fall on their own merits. It is very wrong to evaluate Stoves
only INSIDE the context of AGW, in that the results of such evaluations
may, and probably will be, be misleading or incorrect OUTSIDE the
context of AGW. Please do not lose sight of the fact that the primary
purpose of Stoves is cooking and/or heating. </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I think it valid to ask if it is because you/they are a climate
denier?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># Firstly, please define specifically what you
mean by "climate denier". Secondly, if "True Science" is employed in
"Stove Testing", then a "Climate Denier"(?) and a "Climate Believer"(?)
should get identical results. Alternatively, should there perhaps be
two Stove Testing Protocols... one for "Climate Believers"(?) and one
for "Climate Deniers"(?)? </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV> ( Kevin and I have had off- list discussions, but he is
free to say otherwise anytime on his AGW views.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># We may have had off-list discussions, but
when I searched my files, I could not find them. Would you be kind enough to
reference them by date, and by relevance to the issue at hand? Additionally,
while you are searching your files, I would kindly ask you to find evidence
to justify your statements, or issue a public retraction as called for in my
posting to the Stoves List on 4/24/2013 at 11:31 AM ADT, as
follows:</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><STRONG>===></STRONG>(RWL)
3. Many of us have been promoting char-making stoves for
individual (not societal) non-energy reasons that you also state need not be
considered <BR> - able to
save money through sale or use of the
char<BR> - save time and money by
using closer non-wood fuels<BR> -
cleaner kitchen (and neighborhood outdoor-air) environment, so lower
health-related costs<BR> - save
time by less fire tending</SPAN>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"># I think it is
about time for you to make a Public Retraction. Please show the List where I
said that the above factors do not need to be considered, or retract your
erroneous statement.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">I would comment that
I have supported Paul Oliver with his Proposal to utilize char making stoves
in Vietnam. I am 100% supportive of the use of char making stoves where they
are appropriate and where the Customer wants them. Equally, I am 100%
against char making stoves where they are inappropriate and when they
do not best serve the Customer's needs.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">I await your Public
Retraction of your erroneous statement.. <===</SPAN></STRONG><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR></SPAN></B></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV> To me it is important to try to educate deniers, and
analyze their reasons for denial. I just can't comprehend such a view in
2013.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># Perhaps you, as a "believer"(?) cannot
understand the concerns of "deniers"(?) because you have a fixed belief that
you your beliefs are the only ones that are correct. If your "beliefs" are
based on "Consensus Science", rather than "Real Science", your "beliefs" may
be faulted. The late Margaret Thatcher had a strong view about
consensus. She called it: </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>"The process of abandoning all beliefs,
principles, values, and policies in search of something in which no one
believes, but to which no one objects." <BR></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># Scientific Truth has no need for
"consensus."</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Apr 22, 2013, at 8:05 AM, "Kevin" <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Dear Ron</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>I would suggest that your
approach, as presented below, is some combination of an Ad
Hominum Attack, and an un-scientific witch hunt. The Bioenergy lists
should be a source of Truth and Fact, based on Science, but you persist
in tainting Stove and Agricultural issues involving char with
AGW, Carbon Credit, Climate Change, and "Denier" considerations.
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>You could become a "Friend of Biochar" if
you worked toward understanding how biochar can be used to advantage by
Farmers and Growers, in that if Farmers and Growers find out how to use
biochar economically, it will be used on a widespread basis in
Agriculture. Your AGW interests will then be advanced by
"Market Pull".</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>If you disagree with the views of List
Members, please do so by refuting their views with palpable evidence
showing why you feel they are wrong, and not with ad hominum
attacks.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Thank you.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Kevin Chisholm</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target=_blank>Ron</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</A> ; <A title=paul.olivier@esrla.com
href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target=_blank>Paul Olivier</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, April 21, 2013 11:52
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Last?
Alternative to Charcoal</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Paul and list:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> Thanks for a very complete response. This is to
hope Crispin will respond fully.</DIV>
<DIV>If so, I ask him three more to add to yours</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> a. why he has chosen to NOT join the
sister biochar lists, given the heavy emphasis there as well in
char-making stoves.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> b. whether much of his knowledge on
biochar has come from WUWT. If not what source (i am asking for a
few specifics -not generalities) has he for his statement below</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469)"
class=Apple-style-span></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469)">
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">There
have been many claims made for biochar which, based on what I read
and hear from people who read much more broadly, that don’t stand up
to close
scrutiny.</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> c. Does he see the connection I do between his
being a "climate denier" and being a skeptic on biochar?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Apr 21, 2013, at 5:25 PM, Paul Olivier <<A
href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com"
target=_blank>paul.olivier@esrla.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>See comments below.<BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 1:13 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
target=_blank>crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Jeff<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Thanks
for that contribution.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
point of Paul’s description is that in the circumstances where he
is, it works. It works on several levels and it will probably
continue to work for a long time.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
scenario was discussed on this list several times before, going back
years, but there was nowhere that all the ingredients were present.
One of the things that makes the rice hull char attractive is the
existence, on a big scale apparently, of land that benefits from the
addition of the char, and growing of crops that benefit from
it.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">There
have been many claims made for biochar which, based on what I read
and hear from people who read much more broadly, that don’t stand up
to close scrutiny. </SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Crispin, I take issue with this statement. The biochar research
that I have been involved with (that is, biochar from my gasifiers)
has been done in three different countries, and it involved seven
universities. More than 20 experiments have been carried out, and in
none of these experiments did biochar have negative effects. Contrary
to what you might believe, this research does stand up to close
scrutiny. These people are not just reading about biochar, but they
are actually doing biochar research. I know many of these researchers,
and they are not engaged in deceit. They are trying to help poor
farmers understand the benefits of biochar.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
same holds for permaculture </SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>What's wrong with permaculture? <BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">and
improved stove and lots of things, so there is nothing ‘special’
about char, it is just that people get enthusiastic about something
and wish it were universally true.</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Crispin, it is hard for me to believe that you actually wrote
this!<BR>How do you know that that there is nothing special about
biochar?<BR>Is this your field of expertise?<BR>Have you actually been
involved in biochar research?<BR>I strongly suggest that you read the
following: <BR><BR><A
href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Agronomy_Carter%20et%20al%202013%2002%2017.pdf"
target=_blank>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Agronomy_Carter%20et%20al%202013%2002%2017.pdf</A><BR><A
href="http://www.lrrd.org/public-lrrd/proofs/lrrd2501/chha25008.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.lrrd.org/public-lrrd/proofs/lrrd2501/chha25008.htm</A><BR><A
href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd23/2/siso23032.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd23/2/siso23032.htm</A><BR><A
href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24026.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24026.htm</A><BR><A
href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24039.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24039.htm</A><BR><A
href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24034.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24034.htm</A><BR><A
href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Biochar%20utilization%20in%20Rice%20crop%20on%20Tuk%20Vil%20Luvisol.pdf"
target=_blank>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Biochar%20utilization%20in%20Rice%20crop%20on%20Tuk%20Vil%20Luvisol.pdf</A><BR><A
href="http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/11/leng24199.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/11/leng24199.htm</A><BR><BR>If
you really want to understand the benefits of biochar, please read
this book:<BR><A
href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Johannes%20Lehmann%2C%20Stephen%20Joseph-Biochar%20for%20environmental%20management_%20science%20and%20technology.pdf"
target=_blank>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Johannes%20Lehmann%2C%20Stephen%20Joseph-Biochar%20for%20environmental%20management_%20science%20and%20technology.pdf</A><BR>
<BR></DIV>
<DIV>The people who wrote and edited this book are not charlatans.
They are not deceitful. They are as good in their science as anyone
could possibly be. <BR></DIV>
<DIV>Crispin, the moment you start doing biochar research of your own,
then you might have something serious to say in this regard.<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">No
problem, we can live with filters on information to sift out what is
beneficial and in what circumstances the claims how true.
Independent investigation will support it if it
is.</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Then do the independent investigation yourself. <BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">As
I understand if, the Japanese have being doing this the longest and
they are very circumscribed about what claims are made for biochar.
</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Some of the best biochar research was done by the Japanese (Ogawa
et al) back in the early 90's. They showed how biochar positively
impacts the growth of AM fungi. This is explained in the book by
Lehmann and Joseph.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It
is particular soils, particular crops and particular treatment of
the char (temperature, species) that are in combination, what gives
improved results. This theme constantly appears in the literature.
As has been pointed out, just randomly putting char into soil can
have negative consequences – it depends on the soil conditions. The
last thing we need is a case of the char causing more harm than good
while claims are made that it is improving things. The stove
community should be working with agricultural trials
experts.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
read in the past that adding rice hull ash to rice fields is
beneficial – maybe because the silica is extra-available, don’t
know. Not my field. </SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If this is not your field, then on what authority do you base
your statements about rice hull biochar or rice hull ash?<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Again, I challenge you: do the research, as Preston, Leng and
Shackley have done.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>What upsets me here is that I know well some of the people who
have been conducting research with rice hull biochar.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>They know agriculture quite well, they have impeccable scientific
credentials, and they, unlike you, are experts in this
field.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Then you come along, without any basis in fact, and question
their research as not being scientific.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Wow! <BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
am just glad we have a working example of using gas and char that
makes economic sense. </SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It only makes economic sense, Crispin, if biochar plays a
positive role in promoting plant and animal growth. If biochar does
not play a positive role, we might as well burn it.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Paul Olivier<BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<SPAN><FONT
color=#888888><U></U><U></U></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P><SPAN><FONT
color=#888888>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR><A href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Paul A. Olivier PhD<BR>26/5 Phu Dong Thien
Vuong<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124
(rings Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<BR>Skype address:
Xpolivier<BR><A href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.esrla.com/</A> </DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><BR><SPAN>Stoves
mailing list</SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>to Send a Message to the
list, use the email address</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P></P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing
list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE
or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR><A href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><BR><SPAN>Stoves
mailing list</SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>to Send a Message to the
list, use the email address</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change
your List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>