<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Frank and all,<br>
<br>
I respectfully disagree. If we present no data from the lab
tests and there are none, (or few, and fewer that are comparable
to each other) from testing in the field, then we have zero data
about the stoves.<br>
<br>
Who are we trying to serve? Who are we trying to protect?<br>
<br>
Let's get some data that can be used. So far, the Jetter data
from EPA (final figures, not raw data sets) is the most cited and
respected. There have been other comparisons by Aprovecho and
one done at CSU that should not be forgotten. The comparative
graph that I made several years ago used Aprovecho data plus the
initial results of TLUD testing.<br>
<br>
We all sit waiting for the release of the next set of results from
EPA (Jim said the results should be out in about September.)<br>
<br>
At Aprovecho Stove Camp this year (22 - 26 July, with co-leader Dr
TLUD), we will be getting some additional results that should give
interesting comparisons. Soon I will post to the Stoves Listserv
some notes on the testing, so that Frank and Dale and Crispin and
Tami and all others can comment and refine what will be done.
And I hope that many of you will be able to attend.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 4/27/2013 12:43 PM, Frank Shields wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:006a01ce436e$adda1fe0$098e5fa0$@compostlab.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]-->
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:#0563C1;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:#954F72;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;
color:black;}
span.PlainTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Plain Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text";
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle23
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle24
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Dear Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">IMO<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Crispin is
right about only giving you the data. And you should be
careful to whom you pass on the data to and how its
presented and how you and others look at it. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If there is a
list of ten TLUD stoves tested. The results are presented in
two ways: (1) One set uses oven dried fuel of perfect size
and introduced to the stove in a very attentive, scientific
manor while the other set of results (2) are using a
classification of ‘real fuel’ and introduced to the stove as
determined by a Tool Box Observer (TBO) of mothers of four
kids running around,, one in the flour sack and the other
wanting a band aid on the knee, while trying to cook a meal
– which set of test data do you thing the NGO wants when
making a decision to purchase that will best reflect what
will be seen in the field? The first set of tests are only
research data and should NOT be presented in any way to the
public. The second set does not exist because we have not
classified the fuel and established a means to control the
introduction of fuel to the stove when doing the testing in
the stove BOX. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thanks <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">BioChar Division<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Control Laboratories,
Inc. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">42 Hangar Way<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Watsonville, CE
95076<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(831) 724-5422 tel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(81) 724-3188 fax<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com"><span
style="color:blue">frank@biocharlab.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.controllabs.com">www.controllabs.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Stoves [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Anderson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>; Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves; Hugh McLaughlin; Jim Jetter<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re: FW:
REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove
tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Stovers,<br>
<br>
I asked Crispin to name the stoves for which the reported
results are not accurate. And he named one of mine, the
Quad 2, which happens to be about the ONLY stove for which
raw data sets have been made available on the Internet.<br>
<br>
(So, to the the GACC and EPA and others: My request for
more disclosure of raw data set is STILL not satisfied,
although we have received assurances of eventual
compliance.)<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, Crispin sent his reply only to me. Perhaps
he was trying to be nice. But I want the cards on the
table for ALL stoves, and it does not matter if one of my
stoves is presented in a bad light (TEMPORARILY). Much of
this depends on how the data is presented, both in
calculations and in discussions.<br>
<br>
So much talk and so little reality. <br>
<br>
I am NOT here to defend or condemn stoves that make charcoal
(and they are mainly the TLUD stoves). The reality is that
they exist, and are consistently shown to be among the
lowest of biomass-fueled cookstoves in emissions of CO and
PM .<br>
<br>
And they do not require wood as fuel. Those are facts.<br>
<br>
Let the discussions continue. But I am happy that others
have been doing the discussion.<br>
<br>
Dr TLUD<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 4/27/2013 2:08 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Sorry for not replying. I am on a job in
Palo Alto, CA. <br>
<br>
The Quad 2 is one such stove - almost. It uses 1350 g (dry)
and gets (got, anyway) a rating of 636g. <br>
<br>
The new spreadsheet with corrections does a better job.
4.2.1. <br>
<br>
However if a stove were to make 25% char, it would be back
in that category. The UNFCCC uses the CCT 2.0 (names it
specifically) and that uses the energy efficiency, not the
fuel efficiency as the metric to compare on the assumption
that stoves do not make char. <br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Crispin travelling <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From BB9900<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b>Paul Anderson <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Date: </b>Fri, 26 Apr 2013 10:55:20
-0500<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To: </b>Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Cc: </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"><crispinpigott@gmail.com></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] FW:
REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Crispin,<br>
<br>
You wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">stoves that
actually take off 3 tons of biomass per year have been
getting credit for taking only one ton and proclaimed to
be ‘better’ and ‘more fuel efficient’ than a two-ton
stove. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please provide an example. If it is a
specific stove, then name the names and give the data.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 4/25/2013 10:06 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Dear Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Here is the
problem restated slightly better without prejudice re
other biomass:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If someone
is interested in the char, it can be reported – it is in
the raw data set. What Ron is proposing, to reduce the
energy in the fuel consumed by the heat energy available
in the remaining char, is akin to considering the fuel
efficiency to be the energy efficiency which is
precisely what created for us a problem in the first
place. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The energy
value of the char came from somewhere. Consider a stove
that needs 2 tons of biomass per year to operate. If it
produces ¼ of a ton of biomass energy equivalent in the
form of char, fine. Say so. But saying so does not
reduce the two tons of biomass it takes to feed the
system. If you have (as you pointed out) a second stove
that can utilise the charcoal, then that can be viewed
as a ‘system’ by all and sundry, but is still does not
change the fact that Stove 1 takes two tons of biomass
each year which is what the reported fuel consumption
should be. The impact of a system is not the same as the
impact of a component of that system. The only debate
left is how to report the fuel consumption and
by-products.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">What has
been happening that is wrong, in my view, is that stoves
that actually take off 3 tons of biomass per year have
been getting credit for taking only one ton and
proclaimed to be ‘better’ and ‘more fuel efficient’ than
a two-ton stove. Plainly this is not the case and the
test method has to report the fuel consumption
correctly. It is a problem that the UNFCCC methodology
(which measures energy efficiency) does not handle this
well and it is being used for CDM trades. People are
being cheated.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Crispin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>