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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> ; <A
title=jetter.jim@epa.gov href="mailto:jetter.jim@epa.gov">jetter jim</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:59
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative
to Charcoal</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">List
and ccs<BR><BR> I am choosing this time to address the list instead of
Kevin, as I now have concluded I have zero chance of convincing Kevin of
anything on which we disagree. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Perhaps you should re-examine your paradigm as it applies to Stove
Testing?</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> But I
strongly feel it important to this list to correct his misinformation,
so I persist a little longer.<BR><BR> Two items below (a.
char from stoves and b. char in soil) to again show where Kevin is
selectively performing his "scholarly"
research<U>)<BR><BR><B>[RWL1a:</B></U> Re a. Kevin says
about a third of the way down (relative to reporting E1, E2, and E3)
<BR> " <I># I have no problem with that,
except...."</I>. <BR> Then the rest of the response proves he sees a
<B><U>big</U></B> problem in such reporting. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC1a: We are in agreement.<BR></STRONG><BR><U><B>RWL1b:</B></U>
Here is one last try at showing the value of
reporting char production via E3 that I had not previously observed.
That is that when one adds 5 MJ in his columns B&D he now agrees that the
number E3 should be 5 MJ or 33% of the new 15 MJ. Surprisingly, it is
also <B><U>100%</U></B> of the 5 MJ difference in input energy. No
other number in his new Table 2 is near 100%.<BR><BR>
I'm not surprised, after his comments below, that he doesn't feel
100% of a 50% input addition going to char in his sample stove is worth
reporting. I do.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC1b: How is your arithmetic ledgermain helpful to a Stove Customer? Do not
overlook the fact that your E3 Term, "Char Production Efficiency" is
fundamentally flawed, in that it has absolutely nothing to do with the
"efficiency of Char Production." If you are impressed with "Big Numbers", I
can ledgermain a dilly for your favoured B and D stoves as
follows:</STRONG></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>(Misc.
losses to stack, combustion and shell Loss + Loss to unburned char) /
(Heat to Cooking Pot) =</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG> (5 +
5) / 5 = 200%</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Thus,
twice as much energy is wasted, compared to the energy going to the cooking
pot. How is that for neat ledgermain?</STRONG><BR><B><BR>[RWL2:
</B>b. More important to me is his confusion (?) about the relationship
between char and soils. Below our dialog goes lke this:</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
KC2: I am certainly confused about the relationship between char and
soils! Sadly, I am not alone. I would love to see all Farmers being able to
get 400% increases in yield, as some report in their structured tests. I am
confused as to why most Farmers cannot get anything remotely close to such
wonderful results when they put char in their
soils. <BR><BR></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">RWL from day
before: <BR> <I>"But also because of the soil
improvement value of char becoming biochar."<BR></I></DIV><I></I>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I></I><BR>Kevin
responds:<I><BR></I></DIV><I></I>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><STRONG>
"# What is "Biochar"? The IBI definition of "Biochar" is:
</STRONG></I></DIV><I></I>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><STRONG>" <EM>Biochar
is a solid material obtained from the carbonisation of biomass.</EM> " (First
line at </STRONG><A href="http://www.biochar-international.org/biochar"
target=_blank><STRONG>http://www.biochar-international.org/biochar</STRONG></A><BR><BR></I>[RWL3a.
Here is that sentence and the <B><U>NEXT</U></B> of this "Definition"
paragraph, with his strangely un-noticed "soil" emphasis added in underlining
by me.<BR><I><BR></I> <B><EM>"Biochar is a solid material obtained
from the carbonisation of biomass. Biochar may be added to <U>soils</U> with
the intention to improve <U>soil</U> functions and to reduce emissions from
biomass that would otherwise naturally degrade to greenhouse gases.
"<BR> <BR></EM>#KC3a: Indeed, I saw that sentence! I noted that
"...Biochar MAY be added to soils..." The message I get here is that "It is
not a necessity for Char to be added to soil, in order to be termed "Biochar."
Basically, "char from approved biomass sources" could be used in a Blast
Furnace for iron production, and it could still be called "Biochar."</B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><U><B>[RWL3b</B></U>:
Maybe Kevin chose not to show that second sentence because then he would have
to consider the next two sentences which apparently are an anathema to climate
deniers:<BR><EM></EM><I><EM></EM><B><EM>
<BR> "Biochar also has appreciable carbon sequestration value.
These properties are measurable and verifiable in a characterisation scheme,
or in a carbon emission offset protocol."</EM><BR></B></I></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#KC3b:
Agreed. The issue here is "Stoves Testing", not "Climate Change." ( Note
that this is the "Stoves List", and not the "Biochar Policy List, that was
created for the specific purpose of dealing with Biochar and Climate change
Issues ). However, I would comment that you are indulging in passive
agressive bad mouthing again, and I remind you that that is poor form and
unprofessional.<BR></STRONG><U><BR><STRONG>RWL4a:</STRONG></U>
Kevin continued "proving" that IBI didn't understand the relationship between
biochar and soil by next saying:<I><BR></DIV></I><I></I>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><STRONG>"From
</STRONG><A
href="http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Biochar_Standards_V1.1.pdf"
target=_blank><STRONG>http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Biochar_Standards_V1.1.pdf</STRONG></A><STRONG> ,
we get a different definition of "Biochar":</STRONG></I></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><STRONG>" </STRONG><FONT
size=3 face=TTE27FD3D0t00><FONT size=3 face=TTE27FD3D0t00><STRONG>6 Biochar is
a solid material obtained from the thermochemical conversion of biomass in
an</STRONG> </FONT></FONT></I></DIV>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
align=left><I><FONT size=3 face=TTE27FD3D0t00><FONT size=3
face=TTE27FD3D0t00><STRONG> 7 oxygen-limited
environment.</STRONG></FONT></FONT><STRONG> "
</STRONG></I></P><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#KC4a: I
am not at all suggesting above that the IBI "... does not understand the
relationship between biochar and soil..." That is simply an example of a
second definition of "Biochar" that differs from the first, and it also makes
no connection to a requirement of char to be used in soils to be termed
"biochar." However, I would also comment as follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>1: It
is unprofessional of you to mis-represent my position on a topic or subject or
issue. Please don't do that. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>2:
You raise a very interesting question about IBI and their understanding of the
relationship between biochar and soils. Does the IBI understand why
some Researchers can get 400% yield improvements in their structured tests,
but most real world Farmers do not get results anywhere near 400% yield
improvement? </STRONG></DIV>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
align=left><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><B>[RWL4b
</B>Could Kevin have again been selective in this citation? </SPAN></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><STRONG>#KC4b1: Another
unprofessional passive-agressive back-hander.... Naughty.</STRONG></SPAN></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
align=left><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Here is
the full text of that section. I have underlined his use of the second
sentence and then every use of "soil" for the next two
sentences.</SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><B>1 1
Scope</B></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR>2 Issued by the
International Biochar Initiative (IBI) and based on international
consultation, this<BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">3 IBI Biochar
Standards </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">document is
<B><U>intended to establish a common definition</U></B> for
biochar,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">4 testing and
measurement methods for selected physicochemical properties of biochar,
and</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">5 labeling
standards for biochar materials.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><U><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">6 Biochar is a
solid material obtained from the thermochemical conversion of biomass in
an</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></B></U></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U><B>7
oxygen-limited environment</B></U>. Biochar can be used as a product
itself or as an ingredient within a</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">8 blended product,
with a range of applications as an agent for <U><B>soil</B></U> improvement,
improved</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">9 resource use
efficiency, remediation and/or protection against particular
environmental</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">10 pollution, and
as an avenue for greenhouse gas (GHG) mitigation.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">11 These IBI
Biochar Standards provide a standardized definition of biochar and
biochar</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">12 characteristics
related to the use of biochar as a <U><B>soil</B></U> amendment.
...................</SPAN></I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></I> </P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><STRONG>#<FONT
size=3>KC4b2: What you post here is basically a definition of "char" or
"charcoal". This then brings us back to the basic question I asked: "What
is "Biochar?" Given that the IBI definitions are basically the
definitions for "char" and "charcoal", I ask the pointed question: "What
is the difference between "Biochar" and "Charcoal or
Char"?</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></I></P>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><B>[RWL4c:
S</B>kipping the remaining portions of Scope on p 8, we get closer to the real
meat on p 9:<BR><BR> <I>
1 </I></SPAN><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE1C82BE0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">2 Terms and
<U>Definitions</U></SPAN><BR></DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE1C82BE0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"></SPAN></I>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" class=page
title="Page 9">
<DIV class=layoutArea>
<DIV class=column>
<OL style="LIST-STYLE-TYPE: none">
<LI>
<P><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">2 A
complete list of terms and <B><U>definitions</U></B> is found, along with a
list of acronyms, in Appendix 6. A </SPAN></I></P>
<LI>
<P><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">3
clear understanding of the defined terms is essential to the proper
use of these IBI Biochar </SPAN></I></P>
<LI>
<P><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">4
Standards. <U><B>Defined terms are indicated with a double
underline</B></U> in the text on the first instance </SPAN></I></P>
<LI>
<P><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">5 of
the use of that term. </SPAN></I></P>
<LI>
<P><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">6
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE1C82BE0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">3
Biomass Feedstock Material and Biochar Production </SPAN></I></P>
<LI>
<P><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">7
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE1C82BE0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 13pt">3.1
General Feedstock Material Requirements </SPAN></I></P>
<LI>
<P><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'TTE27FD3D0t00'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">8
The materials used as feedstocks for biochar production have direct
impacts on the nature and </SPAN></I></P></LI></OL></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B><I>[RW</I>L4d: </B>
The word "biochar immediately above was the first place that double
underlining appeared. I can't do the same in an e-mail. Going to
Appendix 6 (p 38) as urged by the IBI authors in line 2 of p 9 above, one
finds these two pertinent items:</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I>"13<B>
Biochar</B>: A solid material obtained from thermochemical conversion of
biomass in an oxygen</I></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I>14 limited
environment. (IBI, 2012)</I></P>
<P
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><EM></EM> </P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#KC4d:
Yes, that is one of the IBI definitions of "biochar"</STRONG></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><BR>15
<B>Biochar Characteristics: </B>For the purposes of these standards, biochar
characteristics are those<BR>16 physical or chemical properties of biochar
that affect the following uses for biochar: 1) biochar<BR>17 that is added to
<B><U>soils</U></B> with the intention to improve <U><B>soil</B></U>
functions; and 2) biochar that is<BR>18 produced in order to reduce emissions
from biomass that would otherwise naturally degrade to<BR>19 GHG, by
converting a portion of that biomass into a stable carbon fraction that has
carbon<BR>20 sequestration value. (IBI, 2012)"<BR><STRONG></STRONG></I></P>
<P
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><BR><STRONG></STRONG></I></P>
<P
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B><I><BR><STRONG></STRONG></I></B></P>
<P
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>[<U>RWL5a</U>:
</B>I<B> </B>didn't have the trouble Kevin did in getting to the above.
Curious.</P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#KC5a:
With all that, the IBI still does not distinguish between "Biochar" and
"charcoal or char." It simply describes "Biochar
characteristics"</STRONG><FONT size=4><STRONG> </STRONG></FONT><FONT
size=5><EM>"</EM><EM>For the purposes of these standards..."</EM></FONT></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Note
that the Title of the Publication from which you draw the above passages
is:</STRONG></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>"<A
href="http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Biochar_Standards_V1.1.pdf"><STRONG>Standardized
Product Definition and Product Testing Guidelines for Biochar That Is Used in
Soil-Version 1.1</STRONG></A> " This then raises the questions
:</STRONG></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>1:
"Must all chars and charcoals that are made from approved biomass
sources, be used in soils to be termed "Biochar"?</STRONG></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>2:
"What is the definition of "Biochar" that is not used in soil
applications?</STRONG></P>
<P
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#With
such confusion and conflict, and lack of consistency, it is quite
understandable why Regulators, Legislators, and "Enemies of Biochar" are
suspicious, confused and reluctant to support its broader
use. </STRONG><BR></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin concluded
his unusual and unexpected foray into the world of biochar, saying:</P>
<P
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><BR></I></P><I></I>
<P
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><I><STRONG> "Even
the International Biochar Initiative is reluctant to make a solid connection
between "char", "charcoal" and "soil".</STRONG></I></P>
<P
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Sadly, I am stil confused. I still do not know the difference between char,
charcoal, and biochar. Can ANYONE explain this in an authoritive and credible
manner?</STRONG></P>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<BR> <B>[<U>RWL5b</U>: </B> I suggest that a different
reluctance can be observed in Kevin's selective choice of two biochar
"defining" sentences. The question is why. <BR><BR>
Can there possibly be a connection to climate denial?</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#KC5b:
Another passive-agressive back-hander. Tsk, Tsk. You persist on harping
about "Climate Denial". You refuse to define what you mean by "Climate
denier". The Stoves List is intended to deal with Stove Issues, but the
"Biochar Policy" list is intended to deal with "Climate Change" issues.
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> To the
fact that stoves appear to have an important early role in proving the dual
virtues of biochar in soil improvement and carbon sequestration?</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># You
make an illogical leap here. You ASSUME that the char left over from a char
producijng stove will actually get used in soil:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>1: It
may, or may not get used in soil. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>2: It
may, actually be an "inconvenient waste" for the Stove owner.<BR>3: It may get
used as a fuel in another stove.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><STRONG>
</STRONG>Anyone able to offer other explanations? Anyone know any other
writer besides Kevin who has failed to understand that biochar is and always
has been char placed in soil?</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># I
might be missing something, but I could not find any definition from any
credible and generally accepted source that defines "Biochar" along the lines
of:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>"Biochar
is a char or charcoal material produced from approved biomass sources and
placed in soil for a soil benefit."</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>It
does concern me that the IBI, who are supposed to be a "Biochar Authority" are
reluctant to make such a clear and definite statement connecting Biochar and
soil. They do come close to connecting "Biochar" and "soil" in the above
"Standard", but the door is wide open for the IBI to issue a whole series of
subsequent Standards, such as:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>"</STRONG><A
href="http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Biochar_Standards_V1.1.pdf"><STRONG>Standardized
Product Definition and Product Testing Guidelines for Biochar That Is Used
in:</STRONG></A></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* Lime Kilns</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* Blast Furnaces</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG> *
Ferro-Alloy Production</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* Water Treatment</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* VOC Capture</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* Smokeless Stove Fuel </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* Water Treatment</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* Odor Absorption</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* Pesticide Absorption</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* Medicinal Applications</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <STRONG>
* Black Powder Production</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
* etc, etc, etc...</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># You
asked me to state my views on what should be reported by Jim Jetter. I went to
considerable effort to address your request, yet you did not comment on the
strengths (or weaknesses) of my efforts. I am sure you will understand why I
don't respond to your requests requiring significant effort on my part in the
future.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># And
speaking of "non-responsiveness", I note that you also skipped over my request
for a retraction of your previous statements, as</STRONG>
<STRONG>follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>" #
Ron, you did not respond to my request for a Public Retraction as requested
below. Please retract your erroneous statements about my views and lack of
thoroughness. I consider your statements to be irresponsible Professional
Insults. Alternatively, please show where I made the stated oversights. I
would ask you to be more professional with expression of your alternative
views in the future."</STRONG></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Since
you refused to make a retraction a second time, and since you cut it out of
the last message, I will repeat it here:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><STRONG>"
===></STRONG>(RWL) 3. Many of us have been promoting
char-making stoves for individual (not societal) non-energy reasons that you
also state need not be considered
<BR> - able to save money through
sale or use of the char<BR> - save
time and money by using closer non-wood
fuels<BR> - cleaner kitchen (and
neighborhood outdoor-air) environment, so lower health-related
costs<BR> - save time by less fire
tending</SPAN>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG># I think it is about time for you to make a
Public Retraction. Please show the List where I said that the above factors do
not need to be considered, or retract your erroneous
statement.</STRONG></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG>I would comment that I have supported Paul
Oliver with his Proposal to utilize char making stoves in Vietnam. I am 100%
supportive of the use of char making stoves where they are appropriate and
where the Customer wants them. Equally, I am 100% against char making stoves
where they are inappropriate and when they do not best serve the
Customer's needs.</STRONG></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG>I await your Public Retraction of your
erroneous statement.. <==="<BR></STRONG></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG><FONT
size=4></FONT></STRONG></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG><FONT size=4>I ask you for the SECOND
time: Please publically retract that statement, or show me where I have said
what you stated that I
said.</FONT></P></STRONG></SPAN></DIV></DIV></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Kevin
Chisholm</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Ron</STRONG>]<BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR id=zwchr>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>From:
</B>"Kevin" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><BR><B>To: </B>"Ron Larson"
<rongretlarson@comcast.net>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR><B>Cc: </B>"Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com>, "jetter jim"
<jetter.jim@epa.gov><BR><B>Sent: </B>Saturday, April 27, 2013 12:22:23
PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative to Charcoal<BR><BR>
<STYLE>P {
MARGIN: 0px
}
</STYLE>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target=_blank>Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</A> ; <A title=jetter.jim@epa.gov
href="mailto:jetter.jim@epa.gov" target=_blank>jetter jim</A> ; <A
title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2013 1:21
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative
to Charcoal</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin,
List +2 ccs<BR><BR>Kevin:<BR><BR> Thank for proving my
point.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
What point? Please be more specific so that I can address
it.<BR></STRONG><BR> Let me try again. This chain started
this week with Jim Jetter, describing what he will be reporting on ALL
stoves. </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><STRONG>#
I have no problem with that, except</STRONG> as follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>1: The
more that is included in the report, the more costly, complex and
potentially confusing the report may become.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>2:
Greater cost of the more complex tests and reports may discourage
independent testing</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>3:
If "Testing and Reporting" of "Char Making Stoves" costs more
than "Testing and Reporting for Full Combustion Stoves", it is not
fair or sensible to burden Full Combustion stoves with the extra cost and
complexity associated with the complexity and confusion of the "Char Making
Stove Report." Separate Reports for Char Producing and Full Combustion
Stoves would be more fair, and would reduce testing costs for the Full
Combustion stoves.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> He
will reporting new efficiency quantities E2 (no char value) and E3 (only
char value), to go with the previous E1(both). I approved. You
produced a chart only dealing with E2 (no char value). I corrected
your chart and wondered why you left out E1 and E3. </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
OK... I show a copy of my original Table (1), followed by a copy of the new
Table (2) showing results reported as E1, E2, and E3.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><IMG
border=0 hspace=0 alt="" align=bottom
src="cid:CD106F50197149F280990F72058C7AE0@usera594fda0bf"></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Table
2</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 330pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0
cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=439>
<COLGROUP>
<COL style="WIDTH: 122pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 5961"
width=163>
<COL style="WIDTH: 53pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2560"
span=2 width=70>
<COL style="WIDTH: 50pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2450"
width=67>
<COL style="WIDTH: 52pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2523"
width=69></COLGROUP>
<TBODY>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 14.25pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 122pt; HEIGHT: 14.25pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl25 height=19 width=163><FONT size=2> </FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 53pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 width=70><FONT size=2>STOVE A</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 53pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 width=70><FONT size=2>STOVE B</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 50pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl26 width=67><FONT size=2>STOVE C</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; WIDTH: 52pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl27 width=69><FONT size=2>STOVE D</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>Nature of Fuel</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl22><FONT size=2>Ag. Waste</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl22><FONT size=2>Ag. Waste</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl22><FONT size=2>Stickwood</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl29><FONT size=2>Stickwood</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>Fuel Energy Supplied, MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23><FONT size=2>10</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23><FONT size=2>15</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23><FONT size=2>10</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl30><FONT size=2>15</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>Energy to Cooking Pot, MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl30><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>Energy in Char, MJ</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23><FONT size=2>0</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl23><FONT size=2>0</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl30><FONT size=2>5</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>E1</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24><FONT size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24><FONT size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24><FONT size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl31><FONT size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl28 height=18><FONT size=2>E2</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24><FONT size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24><FONT size=2>33.33%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl24><FONT size=2>50.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl31><FONT size=2>33.33%</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl32 height=18><FONT size=2>E3</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl33><FONT size=2>0.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl33><FONT size=2>33.33%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid"
class=xl33><FONT size=2>0.00%</FONT></TD>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid"
class=xl34><FONT size=2>33.33%</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Which Table is likely to be more helpful, transparent, and meaningful
to the Customer? Note also that E3 is meaningless. It is not "Charcoal
Production efficiency", and the concept of "Charcoal Production Efficiency"
as calculated by the proposed method is inherently wrong. What we thus have
is as follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>E1
says all the stoves have the same efficiency and it doesn't matter what
stove the Customer selects.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>E2
says stoves A and C are more efficient than stoves B and
D</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>E3
says that Stoves B and D are more efficient than Stoves A and
D.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Including E1, E2, and E3 in one table is an enlightening expose.... What it
conclusively proves is that:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>"Figures
never lie, but liars often figure."</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You
continue to prove my supposition that is because you are a climate
denier.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Since you refuse to define a "Climate Denier", as requested below, I
categorically state that you are wrong, and additionally, I state for the
record that "I believe there is a climate, and I am therefore a climate
believer." <BR></STRONG><BR> Yes, it is true that I push this E3
issue because I am a "climate believer". </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Well, I am a "Climate Believer" also, but that has nothing to do with "Stove
Testing Science". E3 is termed "Char Production efficiency", and is an
absolutely faulty concept as calculated in Table 2 above. If you support
this calculation, you are Believing in an inherently wrong,
misleading, and meaningless calculation.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> But
also because of the soil improvement value of char becoming biochar.
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
What is "Biochar"? The IBI definition of "Biochar" is: </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>" <EM>Biochar
is a solid material obtained from the carbonisation of biomass.</EM> "
(First line at </STRONG><A
href="http://www.biochar-international.org/biochar"
target=_blank><STRONG>http://www.biochar-international.org/biochar</STRONG></A></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>From
</STRONG><A
href="http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Biochar_Standards_V1.1.pdf"
target=_blank><STRONG>http://www.biochar-international.org/sites/default/files/IBI_Biochar_Standards_V1.1.pdf</STRONG></A><STRONG> ,
we get a different definition of "Biochar":</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>" </STRONG><FONT
size=3 face=TTE27FD3D0t00><FONT size=3 face=TTE27FD3D0t00><STRONG>6 Biochar
is a solid material obtained from the thermochemical conversion of biomass
in an</STRONG> </FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT size=3 face=TTE27FD3D0t00><FONT size=3 face=TTE27FD3D0t00><STRONG>7
oxygen-limited environment.</STRONG></FONT></FONT><STRONG> "</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG> Even the International Biochar Initiative is reluctant to
make a solid connection between "char", "charcoal" and "soil".</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG></STRONG> </P>
<P><STRONG>#We have an opportunity here to elevate "Stove Testing" to a
clear, accurate and transparent Science".</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>Why pervert "Stove Science" to support a
product ("Biochar") that even it's major supporter
(IBI) will not define clearly? With the broad and different definitions
of "Biochar" given above, how do we know if the char from char producing
stoves will get used for soil improvement? How do we even know that the char
produced by "char producing stoves" that you and others want to use for
"biochar" is economically valuable to the Farmer?</STRONG></P>
<P> </P></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">So you are
harming the Paul Olivier (soil) position, when you admire his ppt and
approach, but want to (apparently) only report E2. </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
The Tables above are neutral. They are neither harmful nor helpful to any
stove system. They simply report on the facts of the stove. The second
Table, however, is likely to be extremely confusing to all but the most
sophisticated reader. Although Paul Oliver wrote a posting primarily
directed to Crispin, I will take the liberty of replying to it, expanding on
my views of his excellent project.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> To
repeat, there is no atmosphere-soil conflict with wanting a stove report to
include E3 (E1 already being there). I also like reporting E2,
since it supports the need for E3.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
This is your first use of the concept "atmosphere-soil conflict". Where was
it used before? Could you please explain it, and its relevance to the
present discussion?<BR></STRONG><BR> I still have no idea
what you and Crispin (also a climate denier) </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
It is "bad form" to badmouth people. You appear to be hiding behind loosey
goosey concepts, rather than to come out into the Clear Light of Science.
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">want to
modify in what Jim Jetter proposes. My suspicion remains on
motivations when you say below:<BR> <FONT
face=Arial><STRONG>"Stoves" and "AGW" are two very separate issues...
"</STRONG></FONT><BR><BR><STRONG># I wish to confirm the
correctness of your suspicion that "Stoves" and "AGW" are two very separate
issues. The "AGW Believer Folks" seem to be bent on "Building a Carbon
Credit Bridge" or a "Climate Bridge" that connects "AGW" and
"Stoves". This then opens the door to "proving" virtually anything they want
to prove. This is well illustrated by Table 2, which I would call
"The Pick Your Favourite Efficiency Report".</STRONG> <STRONG>That
is not very helpful for the Stove Buying Customer, who has his own
specific stove requirements and circumstances.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> I
ask again, what do you and Crispin want to see reported by Jim?</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
My views are my views, and I cannot speak for either Crispin or Jim Jetter.
What I would like to see in "Stove Test Reports" is a true, valid
and scientific report on the "True and Relevant Facts About Stoves." I
want to see "Stove Tests that Test Stoves" and which do not "muddy the
water" with external agendas and considerations. Lets start with a
definition as a "Stove" as follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===>
1: A Stove is a device or system whose purpose is cooking and/or heating.
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>There
are thus three basic types of stoves:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>a:
Stoves whose primary purpose is cooking</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>b:
Stoves with a dual purpose of cooking AND heating</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>c:
Stoves whose primary purpose is space heating through warming of
air in the living space.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Stoves
that heat water for space heating or process requirements are considered
"boilers" and established test procedures are already in
place.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Then I
would deal with the issues of greatest importance to most "real world
people." The fundamental issue of greatest concern to most "Real World Stove
people" is: </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===>
2: "How much fuel must be supplied to the stove being tested , in order
to "get the desired job, or jobs, done"? </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>This
"Fundamental Efficiency" is the "Fuel Efficiency", and it would be defined
as </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>"The
percentage of fuel energy supplied that is used to accomplish the
desired task, or tasks."</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#Now, if
the stove being tested is intended to be PRIMARILY a "Cooking Stove", then I
would test for, and report on, the energy required to accomplish the
desired "cooking task". I would consider "water heating in a pot" as the
equivalent to "cooking water" </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===>
3:1 For such "Cooking stoves" I would define Fuel Efficiency as
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
("Energy into the Cooking Task") divided by ("Energy in the Fuel
Supplied") </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Note
also that there are different cooking tasks, and different stove
configurations, such as grills, griddles, "directly heated pot cookers",
indirectly heated pot cookers, oven cookers, etc.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Some stoves are required to do a "Dual Function", to cook AND to heat the
living space.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===>
3:2 For "Dual function Stoves", I would define fuel efficiency as
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
("Energy into the Cooking Task" + "Energy into the Living Space") divided by
("Energy in the Fuel Supplied")</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Some stoves are intended for "Space Heating Only", and have no Cooking
Function. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===>
3:3 For Space Heating Stoves, I would define fuel efficiency
as</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>
("Energy into the Living space") divided by (Energy in the Fuel
supplied")</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
The competent "Stove Testing People", like Crispin and Jim, know all
about "Mass and Energy Balances", Siegert Combustion Testing,
pollution measurement, etc. They are quite capable of configuring tests and
reports that truthfully, meaningfully, clearly and repeatably report on
the performance of specific stoves. Such methods "Digitize the generalities,
and eliminate the loosey-gooseys". They enable the Stove Buyer to buy a
stove to accomplish what he wants to accomplish. Some stove systems will
require electric power, for fans, feeders, controls, conveyors, etc. A "Mass
and Energy Balance" would capture these energy inputs and show them
appropriately. Stack Gas Outputs would be measured for at least for CO2,
temperature, and particulate matter. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Now, some people may want to buy a stove that produces Char. That is fine,
if that is what they want. They are the Customer, and if they want a stove
that produces char, they should be able to buy a stove that produces the
char they want. There should be a Test Protocol that shows how much charcoal
it produces when a given amount of input biomass is supplied to it. Now,
since "all chars are not equal", the tests that test a stove that produces
char as a prime purpose should incorporate additional tests that enable the
Char Stove Customer to select the best such stove from a selection. For
example, some Customers may wish to produce "Fuel Grade Char", or perhaps
'Smokeless Char" or perhaps "Char for Subsequent Activation" or perhaps
"char for Water Treatment' or perhaps "Medicinal Grade Char", or perhaps
"Char for Agricultural Purposes", or perhaps "Carbon Credit Char for Climate
Amelioration Purposes". Since such stoves are intended primarily for char
production, I feel they should be in a class of their own. We define such a
"stove" as follows:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>===>
4: A "Char Making Stove" is a device or system whose purpose is the
production of Char and/or to provide a cooking and/or heating functions.
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Parameters that should be noted, measured and tested for could
include:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Fuel Type</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Fuel Burn Rate</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Productively used energy, such as for cooking, space heating, water heating,
process heat, etc</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Gas sent to pipeline for use in a secondary system... external stove, kiln,
furnace, boiler, engine, etc</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Energy sent to Flare stack</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Stack Loss energy</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>* Shell
loss</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Fuel Efficiency Calculation</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Char Yield Calculation</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Liquids yield, and energy content of liquids </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Grade of char produced,</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Power consumption for fans, blowers, pumps, conveyors etc, if
relevant.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Etc.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
My interest, in the context of "Stove Testing", is in stoves
intended primarily for cooking and/or heating, having maximum fuel
efficiency. This means "full combustion stoves", in that char
production is an energy loss, and a char producing stove cannot have as high
a fuel efficiency as a "full combustion stove" that utilizes the supplied
fuel more effectively. I am also interested, in other arenas,
in:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Char Producing Stoves, whose primary purpose is Char Production and/or
cooking and/or heating</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Gasifier stoves whose primary purpose is the production or "Heating grade
Gas" or "engine grade Gas" with or without the production of
char.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>*
Retort systems, whose primary purpose is the production of char,
with/without productive utilization of pryolysis gases.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>In
summary then, there are many "Stove Systems" and many Customer Requirements
for utilizing various biomass products as a source of energy or a source of
char. Because of the differing factors of importance in various "classes of
stove systems", it is not sensible to attempt to assemble a single "One Test
Protocol Fits All" approach to stove testing. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG> </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Ron, you did not respond to my request for a Public Retraction as requested
below. Please retract your erroneous statements about my views and lack of
thoroughness. I consider your statements to be irresponsible Professional
Insults. Alternatively, please show where I made the stated oversights. I
would ask you to be more professional with expression of your alternative
views in the future.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Since
you refused to make a retraction a second time, and since you cut it out of
the last message, I will repeat it here:</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><STRONG>===></STRONG>(RWL)
3. Many of us have been promoting char-making stoves for
individual (not societal) non-energy reasons that you also state need not be
considered <BR> - able to
save money through sale or use of the
char<BR> - save time and money by
using closer non-wood fuels<BR> -
cleaner kitchen (and neighborhood outdoor-air) environment, so lower
health-related costs<BR> - save
time by less fire tending</SPAN>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG># I think it is about time for you to make
a Public Retraction. Please show the List where I said that the above
factors do not need to be considered, or retract your erroneous
statement.</STRONG></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG>I would comment that I have supported Paul
Oliver with his Proposal to utilize char making stoves in Vietnam. I am 100%
supportive of the use of char making stoves where they are appropriate and
where the Customer wants them. Equally, I am 100% against char making stoves
where they are inappropriate and when they do not best serve the
Customer's needs.</STRONG></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG>I await your Public Retraction of your
erroneous statement.. <===<BR></STRONG></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG><FONT size=4>I ask you for the SECOND
time: Please publically retract that statement, or show me where I have said
what you stated that I
said.</FONT></P></STRONG></SPAN></DIV></DIV><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Kevin Chisholm</FONT> </STRONG>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><BR></STRONG><BR>Ron<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR id=zwchr>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>From:
</B>"Kevin" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><BR><B>To: </B>"Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com>, "jetter jim"
<jetter.jim@epa.gov><BR><B>Sent: </B>Friday, April 26, 2013 8:44:26
AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative to Charcoal<BR><BR>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>Ron</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A> ; <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target=_blank>Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 24, 2013 2:37
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Last?
Alternative to Charcoal</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>List. Cc Kevin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> Sorry, no apologies on this one. </DIV>
<DIV
id=DWT295> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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