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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I am just as interested in seeing the data, both raw and final along with protocol as you and many others are. Can only mean a plus in stove research. My only concern is how the data will be interpreted and used by others especially if it is the only data out there. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>And Paul – thanks for keeping us informed regarding vthe Tool Box idea, data and what is going on. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 28, 2013 6:32 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Cc:</b> Frank Shields; crispinpigott@gmail.com; 'Hugh McLaughlin'; 'Jim Jetter'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re: FW: REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Frank and all,<br><br>I respectfully disagree. If we present no data from the lab tests and there are none, (or few, and fewer that are comparable to each other) from testing in the field, then we have zero data about the stoves.<br><br>Who are we trying to serve? Who are we trying to protect?<br><br>Let's get some data that can be used. So far, the Jetter data from EPA (final figures, not raw data sets) is the most cited and respected. There have been other comparisons by Aprovecho and one done at CSU that should not be forgotten. The comparative graph that I made several years ago used Aprovecho data plus the initial results of TLUD testing.<br><br>We all sit waiting for the release of the next set of results from EPA (Jim said the results should be out in about September.)<br><br>At Aprovecho Stove Camp this year (22 - 26 July, with co-leader Dr TLUD), we will be getting some additional results that should give interesting comparisons. Soon I will post to the Stoves Listserv some notes on the testing, so that Frank and Dale and Crispin and Tami and all others can comment and refine what will be done. And I hope that many of you will be able to attend.<br><br>Paul<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal>On 4/27/2013 12:43 PM, Frank Shields wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Dear Paul,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>IMO</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Crispin is right about only giving you the data. And you should be careful to whom you pass on the data to and how its presented and how you and others look at it. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>If there is a list of ten TLUD stoves tested. The results are presented in two ways: (1) One set uses oven dried fuel of perfect size and introduced to the stove in a very attentive, scientific manor while the other set of results (2) are using a classification of ‘real fuel’ and introduced to the stove as determined by a Tool Box Observer (TBO) of mothers of four kids running around,, one in the flour sack and the other wanting a band aid on the knee, while trying to cook a meal – which set of test data do you thing the NGO wants when making a decision to purchase that will best reflect what will be seen in the field? The first set of tests are only research data and should NOT be presented in any way to the public. The second set does not exist because we have not classified the fuel and established a means to control the introduction of fuel to the stove when doing the testing in the stove BOX. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Frank</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Frank Shields</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>BioChar Division</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Control Laboratories, Inc. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>42 Hangar Way</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Watsonville, CE 95076</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>(831) 724-5422 tel</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>(81) 724-3188 fax</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com"><span style='color:blue'>frank@biocharlab.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.controllabs.com">www.controllabs.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Anderson<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Hugh McLaughlin; Jim Jetter<br><b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re: FW: REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Stovers,<br><br>I asked Crispin to name the stoves for which the reported results are not accurate. And he named one of mine, the Quad 2, which happens to be about the ONLY stove for which raw data sets have been made available on the Internet.<br><br>(So, to the the GACC and EPA and others: My request for more disclosure of raw data set is STILL not satisfied, although we have received assurances of eventual compliance.)<br><br>Unfortunately, Crispin sent his reply only to me. Perhaps he was trying to be nice. But I want the cards on the table for ALL stoves, and it does not matter if one of my stoves is presented in a bad light (TEMPORARILY). Much of this depends on how the data is presented, both in calculations and in discussions.<br><br>So much talk and so little reality. <br><br>I am NOT here to defend or condemn stoves that make charcoal (and they are mainly the TLUD stoves). The reality is that they exist, and are consistently shown to be among the lowest of biomass-fueled cookstoves in emissions of CO and PM .<br><br>And they do not require wood as fuel. Those are facts.<br><br>Let the discussions continue. But I am happy that others have been doing the discussion.<br><br>Dr TLUD<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal>On 4/27/2013 2:08 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Sorry for not replying. I am on a job in Palo Alto, CA. <br><br>The Quad 2 is one such stove - almost. It uses 1350 g (dry) and gets (got, anyway) a rating of 636g. <br><br>The new spreadsheet with corrections does a better job. 4.2.1. <br><br>However if a stove were to make 25% char, it would be back in that category. The UNFCCC uses the CCT 2.0 (names it specifically) and that uses the energy efficiency, not the fuel efficiency as the metric to compare on the assumption that stoves do not make char. <br><br>Regards<br>Crispin travelling <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>From BB9900<o:p></o:p></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>From: </b>Paul Anderson <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Date: </b>Fri, 26 Apr 2013 10:55:20 -0500<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>To: </b>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Cc: </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"><crispinpigott@gmail.com></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] FW: REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Crispin,<br><br>You wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>stoves that actually take off 3 tons of biomass per year have been getting credit for taking only one ton and proclaimed to be ‘better’ and ‘more fuel efficient’ than a two-ton stove. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Please provide an example. If it is a specific stove, then name the names and give the data.<br><br>Paul<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal>On 4/25/2013 10:06 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Dear Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Here is the problem restated slightly better without prejudice re other biomass:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>If someone is interested in the char, it can be reported – it is in the raw data set. What Ron is proposing, to reduce the energy in the fuel consumed by the heat energy available in the remaining char, is akin to considering the fuel efficiency to be the energy efficiency which is precisely what created for us a problem in the first place. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The energy value of the char came from somewhere. Consider a stove that needs 2 tons of biomass per year to operate. If it produces ¼ of a ton of biomass energy equivalent in the form of char, fine. Say so. But saying so does not reduce the two tons of biomass it takes to feed the system. If you have (as you pointed out) a second stove that can utilise the charcoal, then that can be viewed as a ‘system’ by all and sundry, but is still does not change the fact that Stove 1 takes two tons of biomass each year which is what the reported fuel consumption should be. The impact of a system is not the same as the impact of a component of that system. The only debate left is how to report the fuel consumption and by-products.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>What has been happening that is wrong, in my view, is that stoves that actually take off 3 tons of biomass per year have been getting credit for taking only one ton and proclaimed to be ‘better’ and ‘more fuel efficient’ than a two-ton stove. Plainly this is not the case and the test method has to report the fuel consumption correctly. It is a problem that the UNFCCC methodology (which measures energy efficiency) does not handle this well and it is being used for CDM trades. People are being cheated.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Crispin</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif"'><br><br><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></body></html>