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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Ron,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><snips to cut to the chase><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>I do believe the stove name should not be released - except to us. Where the results will not be missed used. That is to use it for marketing and not just for research information as it should. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'> <b>[RWL2-1: I can't see that "secrecy" working. Word is sure to leak out if there s a summary comparative report..</b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'> The 2007-2008 paper (Nordica's name first) being mentioned today has stove corporate names associated with each stove. I worry more that the R&D function may not be getting enough prominence, and think that could get worse without public disclosure. There are a lot of people on this list who have the skills to "mine" such reports.] </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agree. It’s all in how the results are presented. And as Paul says – the research data is the only data available. Regardless all the data presented should have the 6 BOX info attached to the report. That way when other findings differ than that reported one can trace back to determine the reason for the difference. I am not saying when comparing stoves all six boxes need to be ‘controlled the same’. Rather just controlled and stated so interpretation can be more than ‘my stove is better than yours’. </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> I also think that the stove developer should be able to specify or veto the fuel type (your 1 and 2). I don't know if that is always possible now. At a minimum Jm etal should announce in advance the types of fuels they can supply.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>The stove developer should have no say as to how this test (WBT) is conducted except for possible suggestions as to his findings to what makes it work best.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'> <b>[RWL2-3: I disagree. A stove that was designed for and is ideal for a fuel on which it never got tested is being treated unfairly. My understanding is that these tests are designed to help stove designers build better stoves. In exchange for that help, they have to live with the results going public. Other thoughts?]</b></span><b><o:p></o:p></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>The WBT is a Test Method that cannot be changed and still called the WBT. If it is changed it is just a Boiling Water test (BWT). But even the WBT with all its strict requirements is still missing the Fuel classification and Fuel placement (Box 1 and 2) controls. So the stove designer can request adjustments to those and still be the WBT -until that is corrected. And this is a Research Test – not Real World test needed for marketing IMO. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>< Big Snip as I think we agree on these or I can sum up below>><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Example: If someone adds biochar to their soil and the plants die or grow twice as large –that info is not important regarding research. What is very important is taking the extra step to determine WHY and that step is often (very often) left out. Same with the WBT. If one stove tests better than another it is important down the road to determine WHY. In Real World the poorer stove may do better with different fuel, how often applied etc. So the results are not important to Real World and only important in Research if we take that extra step to determine WHY. The extra step may take years and a lot of work so will not likely be included in the initial report –but we must keep our eyes on the goal and report results in a manner that include statements “For reasons yet determined” or “Additional research on airflow needed” before improvements can be suggested. And all six boxes need be attached so a reviewer can determine the conditions of the test and ‘read between the lines’ before making a decision per their specific situation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>< snip –snip><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'> <b>[RWL2-5: It is my understanding that ALL six boxes ARE now being cover</b></span><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>Box 1 needs to have fuel classified (like pellet or coal is now). We need to collect the variables of importance from people and set up test packages so to report more specific characteristics in different fuels. Round, crooked, bark covered sticks are different than dried split sticks –etc. That is not yet done. Instructions for fuel placement from the designer to simulate Real World (RW) has not been done. The boxes are not covered as they need be to do RW comparisons used in marketing. </span></b><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'> [RWL2-6. I perceive the stove designers are the researchers. Jim is an unbiased third party tester - needed by both the individual designers and the stove development system (GACC). Funded in a way that most stove designers/researchers can't duplicate.]</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Jim is just one incredible person with a very big job. He can only do so much. I was thinking the purpose of the Tool Box idea was to open this up to others working in groups on others areas. I am just suggesting an outline as to how that might work. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'><snip><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'> <b>[RWL2-8. </b></span><b><span style='color:#1F497D'><snip> </span></b><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>, and believe both kgs and all the needed MJs are available and published. </span></b><b><span style='color:#1F497D'><snip><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>The published data on fuels are not good enough. Pellets are made of all types of materials, ash values differ, moisture etc. Then size, shape and carbon densities etc. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks Ron and hope you did not mind the <snips> ..<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>BioChar Division<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Control Laboratories, Inc. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>42 Hangar Way<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Watsonville, CE 95076<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>(831) 724-5422 tel<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>(81) 724-3188 fax<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com"><span style='color:blue'>frank@biocharlab.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>www.controllabs.com<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>