<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Tom:<br><br> You are a great list owner. <br><br> I have almost gone on today to explain what I think is the real motivation for Keven's definition question. I think he is trying to get others to agree that a device that makes char can't fit into the standard definition of what a stove is or should be. If he is smart, he would drop the discussion, but ....we'll see.<br><br>Ron<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Frank Shields" <frank@compostlab.com><br><b>Cc: </b>"Jim Jetter" <Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov>, "Hugh McLaughlin" <wastemin1@verizon.net><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:56:39 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Stove Definition<br><br><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.ssens
{mso-style-name:ssens;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle23
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Kevin,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We are not going to waste time here redefining “Stoves.” This list is for the discussion of biomass cooking stoves for developing countries. Other appliances such as heating stoves and hot water boilers are included and enter the discussion when appropriate. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.stoves.bioenergylists.org/about" target="_blank">http://www.stoves.bioenergylists.org/about</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Read the literature on the stoves, ETHOS, Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves, GIZ and other sites and you will find definitions, design principles, procedures for evaluating cookstove safety, design, and performance testing. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This list is NOT about heating and cooking appliances in developed countries that you suggest, such as fireplace inserts or free standing space heating stoves. Since the late 1970s we have spent years developing the standards and efficiencies for those appliances. They are now regulated industries based on methods and laws developed by several members of this list and expressed in the regulations of many countries, including the Canadian standards that you refer too. If you want to discuss those appliances then go to the organizations (e.g. Hearth Products Association, Pellet Fuels Institute, etc.) and lists such as <a href="mailto:woodheat@yahoo.com" target="_blank">woodheat@yahoo.com</a> that are dedicated to those appliances. Having said that many people involved in the production and manufacture of appliances for developed countries do participate in the development of biomass cooking stoves for developing countries and participate in this and other forums. Participants on this list have often adapted tools or techniques from those appliances to cooking stoves with variable success.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The function and performance criteria are clear: improved health and resource management through energy efficiency. The challenge is much greater than in regulated sectors because it is a voluntary international activity. We are here to discuss concepts and experiences for the design, fabrication, testing and dissemination of improved cooking stoves throughout the world. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tom</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Owner, Biomass Cooking Stoves</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.stoves.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">www.stoves.bioenergylists.org</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></a></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:12 PM<br><b>To:</b> Frank Shields; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Jim Jetter'; 'Hugh McLaughlin'; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Stove Definition</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Dear Frank</span><span style="color:windowtext"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">I get your point about the difficulty in getting agreement between people in a large group. However, I would suggest that a "generally agreed upon" definition of a "Stove" will help greatly in establishing "safety and for performance.stove standards". For example a wood burning "stove" that does not meet Canadian Standards Association (CSA) or Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Standards cannot be sold in Canada or the US, in that Insurance Companies will not insure a home or business in which they are installed. If for no other reason than being able to define the stove well enough to be able to select the correct Standard, a "stove definition" is important and necessary.</span><span style="color:windowtext"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">These Standards for safety and performance are very helpful. They can provide excellent guidance on how to design and install stove appliances so that they do not hurt people, or lead to house fires. </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">The major interest in "Stoves" on the "Stove List" seems to be in "Cooking stoves in the Tropics." However, there are places in the world where biomass fuelled space heaters are required. What about the following applications for biomass heating and cooking:</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">* Fireplace inserts</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">* Free standing space heating wood stoves</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">* Cooking ranges</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">* Wood heated hot water boilers</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">How should they fit in with the scheme of things?</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">best wishes,</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Kevin</span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Best wishes,</span><span style="color:windowtext"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Kevin</span><span style="color:windowtext"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">----- Original Message ----- </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com" title="frank@compostlab.com" target="_blank">Frank Shields</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" title="kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">'Kevin'</a> ; <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Cc:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov" title="Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov" target="_blank">'Jim Jetter'</a> ; <a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net" title="wastemin1@verizon.net" target="_blank">'Hugh McLaughlin'</a> ; <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:41 PM</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> RE: Stove Definition</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear Kevin,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The compost community gave up on a definition for compost after many attempts. Some have their own but they are never agreed upon by all as there are outliers of the norm. . </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We just go along as if we all know what compost is. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Some interest in the biochar group to come up with a definition for biochar. It will never happen. : ) And it doesn’t matter. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I think the same with Stoves. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Frank</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Frank Shields</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">BioChar Division</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Control Laboratories, Inc. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">42 Hangar Way</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Watsonville, CE 95076</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(831) 724-5422 tel</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(81) 724-3188 fax</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com" target="_blank">frank@biocharlab.com</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.controllabs.com" target="_blank">www.controllabs.com</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> Kevin [<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:51 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Frank Shields<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Jim Jetter'; 'Hugh McLaughlin'; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Subject:</b> Stove Definition</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Dear List</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Just what is a "stove?"</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I would suggest that it is important that we all know what a "stove" is, when we attempt to determine the difference between a "good stove" and a "poor stove.'</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">When we ask Mr. Google, we get more than 7 million hits. However, the most common definitions seem to be typified by the one at</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> <a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stove" target="_blank">http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stove</a></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">" 1<em><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">a</span></em><span class="ssens"> </span><strong><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">:</span></strong><span class="ssens"> a portable or fixed apparatus that burns fuel or uses electricity to provide heat (as for cooking or heating) </span>"</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">At <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a> , the stated purpose of the site is:</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"</span>Our site is dedicated to helping people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions.<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> "</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">What about accepting the Merriam-Webster definition for a "stove?"</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Would anyone have a better definition for a "stove?"</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Best wishes,</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Kevin</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></blockquote></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br><br></div></body></html>