<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Frank cc list and others<br><br> See few more replies below.<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Frank Shields" <frank@compostlab.com><br><b>To: </b>rongretlarson@comcast.net<br><b>Cc: </b>"Jim Jetter" <Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov>, "Hugh McLaughlin" <wastemin1@verizon.net>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Paul Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, April 29, 2013 6:06:37 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re: FW: REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.<br><br><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ron,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">See below:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> rongretlarson@comcast.net [mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 29, 2013 3:13 PM<br><b>To:</b> Frank Shields<br><b>Cc:</b> Jim Jetter; Hugh McLaughlin; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Paul Anderson<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re: FW: REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Frank and ccs<br><br> Thanks. No problems with the following. My concern was that you didn't believe the stove name should be released - and that seems not to be the case.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">I do believe the stove name should not be released - except to us. Where the results will not be missed used. That is to use it for marketing and not just for research information as it should. <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> <b>[RWL2-1: I can't see that "secrecy" working. Word is sure to leak out if there s a summary comparative report..</b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"><b> The 2007-2008 paper (Nordica's name first) being mentioned today has stove corporate names associated with each stove. I worry more that the R&D function may not be getting enough prominence, and think that could get worse without public disclosure. There are a lot of people on this list who have the skills to "mine" such reports.] </b><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> You don't address this below, but I think this list should ask if all 6 of your steps are now adequately covered by GACC, Jim Jetter, the WBT 4.2.1, and the other non-lab tests, that have many of the characterstics of 4.2.1 I think they are, with the possible exception of your step 5. I think time spent in tending to the stoves is an important stove variable and should fit there. I think from conversations with Jim that something new to report may be in the works there.<br><br></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">Yes – the WBT as my understanding it from time back (I need to revisit) does specify many of the variables. <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> <b>[RWL2-2: If many and not all, we (this list) need to talk now. Your next response says a lot is missing.]<br></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> I also think that the stove developer should be able to specify or veto the fuel type (your 1 and 2). I don't know if that is always possible now. At a minimum Jm etal should announce in advance the types of fuels they can supply.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">The stove developer should have no say as to how this test (WBT) is conducted except for possible suggestions as to his findings to what makes it work best.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> <b>[RWL2-3: I disagree. A stove that was designed for and is ideal for a fuel on which it never got tested is being treated unfairly. My understanding is that these tests are designed to help stove designers build better stoves. In exchange for that help, they have to live with the results going public. Other thoughts?]<br></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> The purpose of this test is *<b>research</b>*. Like what Dean and Larry did years ago to find the best gap above the pot and the 10 stove rules. <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> <b>[RWL2-4. I agree that this would be ideal - and with GACC funding. That is the model of a national lab (and worked at one - and the results are always public). But that is a different intent than what is now going on. Some valuable results will come out for those paying attention to Jim's published results (and from the many new regional test centers). Other thoughts?]</b><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">This test does little (unless redesigned) for real world comparison as this procedure is only IN Box 3 and does not include the outside variables (other boxes). <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> <b>[RWL2-5: It is my understanding that ALL six boxes ARE now being covered. I hope you will tell Jim and the GACC how to better cover them, since I think he sees that as his job. Maybe I am wrong.]</b><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">Stove designers are doing the researchers a favor to have them use their stoves for this research. <b><br></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"><b> [RWL2-6. I perceive the stove designers are the researchers. Jim is an unbiased third party tester - needed by both the individual designers and the stove development system (GACC). Funded in a way that most stove designers/researchers can't duplicate.]</b><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">For example: If Paul Anderson TLUD comes out much better than another is it useless info (for the real world) and only useful if the researcher goes the *<b>extra step</b>* to determine why. That might be to fill the fire box with flowing sand to determine its volume or measure air flow or, as Crispin is planning, to measure the stack gas. Anything to give a clue or info where a change can make the not-so-good stove the same as the good stove and the good stove better. <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> <b>[RWL2-7. Jim IS measuring airflow. Yes, he is probably giving some clues, but the intent is to compare and report on existing commercial, not R&D stoves.</b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Last. I think I would prefer to see results for one stove use. Why 1000 people (or stoves? or families?)? Are you recommending for one day or one year. or? <br> You have emphasized fuel amounts (kg?) rather than energy efficiency. OK to do both?<br><br></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">I just mention units of measure that are of real interest to the real world, ‘Fuel required to live / person’/ time. Following the energy from the fuel is what Crispin and Jim are doing (research to find the best materials and optimum gaps and air-gas mixes etc.). That to improve Box 3 (Stoves) that will lower the *<b>fuel</b>* required to *<b>live</b>* per *<b>day</b>*. Using stoves supplied for the research they can start by seeing what each stove can do then determine the reason one is better over the other. Best of luck to them as it will not be easy as we have seen all these years. They continue work done by Dean and Larry and others but doing it on other types of stoves. At least that’s the way I see it. <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> <b>[RWL2-8. I agree with most of the above, and believe both kgs and all the needed MJs are available and published. But I think your system requires the ability to change and tweak here and there. Could take retooling, etc. Not something an overworked test lab in North Carolina can do, much less many other new ones scattered around the globe. There will be tradeoffs - more/less efficiency for less/more emissions? Better testing groups like yours being hired to do that work.</b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"><b> I think most of the current testing is being done on rockets. Ron]</b><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">Frank</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thanks </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Frank Shields</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">BioChar Division</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Control Laboratories, Inc. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">42 Hangar Way</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Watsonville, CE 95076</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(831) 724-5422 tel</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(81) 724-3188 fax</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">frank@biocharlab.com</span></a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">www.controllabs.com</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br> Again, thanks.<br><br>Ron</span></p><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><hr id="zwchr" align="center" size="2" width="100%"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From: </span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"Frank Shields" <<a href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com" target="_blank">frank@compostlab.com</a>><br><b>To: </b>"Ron" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>, "Paul Anderson" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"Jim Jetter" <<a href="mailto:Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov" target="_blank">Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov</a>>, "Hugh McLaughlin" <<a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net" target="_blank">wastemin1@verizon.net</a>><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, April 29, 2013 12:14:57 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re: FW: REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.<br><br><br></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ron and all,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><snip></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"> Can you tell us more of how to best get and use all of Jim's test results? Any precedents in the </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span">(your) testing world?</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><span class="apple-style-span">Ron</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Working from the big picture we are trying to: ‘reduce the Fuel required for living / 1000 people’. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">To study ways to do this we need to get organized and control the variables as we follow the energy from the fuel to the task. They are:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">1: Fuel</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">2: fuel manipulation</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">3: stoves</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">4) utensil</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">5) utensil manipulation</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">6) task</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If we work on and improve one of the six then the total fuel required is reduced per the 1000 people. And working in each group is what we are doing but not in an organized manor. The stoves being tested that Paul is talking about is working within group three. Determining what makes one stove better than another. Making better briquettes is group one and stating fuel placed in a stove vertical works better than horizontal is group two. So to answer your question: I would like to see in the report that Jim produces 1) chemical and physical properties and a description of the fuel used during testing and 2) the frequency and manipulation of the fuel when added to each stove tested along with the 3) Stove (name and designer etc.) 4) utensils used, 5) water stirring frequency etc and 6) results of the Task. So NOT a BIG DEAL! </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Then if there are different results found at Stove Camp than what Jim reports we have a chance of looking through the conditions and, perhaps, determine the cause.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Also; When stove users determine one size fraction or moisture content or how best to introduce fuel to a stove makes a difference in results – send that info to the appropriate group. As that is a parameter that should be included in a test package. If it is observed in the ‘real world’ people will only do something one way – send that info to the group working on that section. That is when(if) we get these groups in place! </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I suggest Paul bring to Stove Camp a handful of biomass used at a location where he wants to sell his stove and make sure the report from Stove Camp reports the six parameters. He will be able to show results based on ‘real’ fuel.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Also: I don’t get into all this following the energy stuff and how to calculate in the char etc. If someone needs char and has a use for it – that is ‘required for living’. If when cooking the house overheats so the front door is kept open that is no different than cooking in winter and closing the front door – ‘required for living’. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks for asking! Sometimes I think I am only talking to myself. : )</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Frank</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thanks </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Frank Shields</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">BioChar Division</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Control Laboratories, Inc. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">42 Hangar Way</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Watsonville, CE 95076</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(831) 724-5422 tel</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(81) 724-3188 fax</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">frank@biocharlab.com</span></a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.controllabs.com" target="_blank">www.controllabs.com</a></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p></div></div></body></html>