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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Frank, Ron and all,<br>
<br>
The TYPES of stoves are important, and the key characteristics
need to be stated because there are now so many designs of Rocket
stoves and TLUD stoves and Charcoal stoves. But the actual stove
name is only important when it is a specific product or it is with
detailed drawings/plans so that others could reproduce it.<br>
<br>
What is not needed are names on the experimental units.<br>
<br>
It is important that we report some of the UNdesirable results,
such as the negative impact when air flows are excessive or too
restricted. Showing max and min and median-or-mean results of
several tests is useful, but does not fully help us get closer to
the best results.<br>
<br>
We will be using the testing equipment at Aprovecho Stove Camp
this summer (22 - 26 July) to zero in on what factors impact the
emissions and efficiencies in which ways in the TLUD stoves.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 4/29/2013 7:06 PM, Frank Shields wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ron,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">See below:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 29, 2013 3:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Frank Shields<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jim Jetter; Hugh McLaughlin; Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves; Paul Anderson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re:
FW: REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove
tests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Frank
and ccs<br>
<br>
Thanks. No problems with the following. My concern
was that you didn't believe the stove name should be
released - and that seems not to be the case.</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D">I do believe the stove name should
not be released - except to us. Where the results will not
be missed used. That is to use it for marketing and not
just for research information as it should. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
You don't address this below, but I think this list should
ask if all 6 of your steps are now adequately covered by
GACC, Jim Jetter, the WBT 4.2.1, and the other non-lab
tests, that have many of the characterstics of 4.2.1 I
think they are, with the possible exception of your step
5. I think time spent in tending to the stoves is an
important stove variable and should fit there. I think
from conversations with Jim that something new to report
may be in the works there.<br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Yes – the WBT as my understanding it
from time back (I need to revisit) does specify many of
the variables. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
I also think that the stove developer should be able to
specify or veto the fuel type (your 1 and 2). I don't
know if that is always possible now. At a minimum Jm etal
should announce in advance the types of fuels they can
supply.</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D">The stove developer should have no
say as to how this test (WBT) is conducted except for
possible suggestions as to his findings to what makes it
work best. The purpose of this test is *<b>research</b>*.
Like what Dean and Larry did years ago to find the best
gap above the pot and the 10 stove rules. This test does
little (unless redesigned) for real world comparison as
this procedure is only IN Box 3 and does not include the
outside variables (other boxes). Stove designers are doing
the researchers a favor to have them use their stoves for
this research. For example: If Paul Anderson TLUD comes
out much better than another is it useless info (for the
real world) and only useful if the researcher goes the *<b>extra
step</b>* to determine why. That might be to fill the
fire box with flowing sand to determine its volume or
measure air flow or, as Crispin is planning, to measure
the stack gas. Anything to give a clue or info where a
change can make the not-so-good stove the same as the good
stove and the good stove better. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Last. I think I would prefer to see results for one
stove use. Why 1000 people (or stoves? or families?)?
Are you recommending for one day or one year. or? <br>
You have emphasized fuel amounts (kg?) rather than
energy efficiency. OK to do both?<br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D">I just mention units of measure that
are of real interest to the real world, ‘Fuel required to
live / person’/ time. Following the energy from the fuel
is what Crispin and Jim are doing (research to find the
best materials and optimum gaps and air-gas mixes etc.).
That to improve Box 3 (Stoves) that will lower the *<b>fuel</b>*
required to *<b>live</b>* per *<b>day</b>*. Using stoves
supplied for the research they can start by seeing what
each stove can do then determine the reason one is better
over the other. Best of luck to them as it will not be
easy as we have seen all these years. They continue work
done by Dean and Larry and others but doing it on other
types of stoves. At least that’s the way I see it. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thanks <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">BioChar Division<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Control
Laboratories, Inc. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">42 Hangar Way<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Watsonville, CE
95076<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(831) 724-5422 tel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(81) 724-3188 fax<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com"><span
style="color:blue">frank@biocharlab.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.controllabs.com">www.controllabs.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Again, thanks.<br>
<br>
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<hr id="zwchr" size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"Frank
Shields" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com">frank@compostlab.com</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Ron" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>,
"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>,
"Paul Anderson" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Jim Jetter" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov">Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov</a>>,
"Hugh McLaughlin" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net">wastemin1@verizon.net</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, April 29, 2013 12:14:57 PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re: FW:
REQUEST for complete sets of raw data of cookstove
tests.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ron and all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><snip></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"> Can you
tell us more of how to best get and use all of Jim's test
results? Any precedents in the </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span">(your)
testing world?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">Ron</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Working from
the big picture we are trying to: ‘reduce the Fuel
required for living / 1000 people’. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">To study ways
to do this we need to get organized and control the
variables as we follow the energy from the fuel to the
task. They are:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">1: Fuel</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">2: fuel
manipulation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">3: stoves</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">4) utensil</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">5) utensil
manipulation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">6) task</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If we work on
and improve one of the six then the total fuel required is
reduced per the 1000 people. And working in each group is
what we are doing but not in an organized manor. The
stoves being tested that Paul is talking about is working
within group three. Determining what makes one stove
better than another. Making better briquettes is group one
and stating fuel placed in a stove vertical works better
than horizontal is group two. So to answer your question:
I would like to see in the report that Jim produces 1)
chemical and physical properties and a description of the
fuel used during testing and 2) the frequency and
manipulation of the fuel when added to each stove tested
along with the 3) Stove (name and designer etc.) 4)
utensils used, 5) water stirring frequency etc and 6)
results of the Task. So NOT a BIG DEAL! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Then if there
are different results found at Stove Camp than what Jim
reports we have a chance of looking through the conditions
and, perhaps, determine the cause.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Also; When
stove users determine one size fraction or moisture
content or how best to introduce fuel to a stove makes a
difference in results – send that info to the appropriate
group. As that is a parameter that should be included in a
test package. If it is observed in the ‘real world’ people
will only do something one way – send that info to the
group working on that section. That is when(if) we get
these groups in place! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I suggest
Paul bring to Stove Camp a handful of biomass used at a
location where he wants to sell his stove and make sure
the report from Stove Camp reports the six parameters. He
will be able to show results based on ‘real’ fuel.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Also: I don’t
get into all this following the energy stuff and how to
calculate in the char etc. If someone needs char and has a
use for it – that is ‘required for living’. If when
cooking the house overheats so the front door is kept open
that is no different than cooking in winter and closing
the front door – ‘required for living’. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks for
asking! Sometimes I think I am only talking to myself. : )</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Frank</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thanks </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Frank Shields</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">BioChar Division</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Control
Laboratories, Inc. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">42 Hangar Way</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Watsonville, CE
95076</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(831) 724-5422 tel</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">(81) 724-3188 fax</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com" target="_blank"><span
style="color:blue">frank@biocharlab.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.controllabs.com">www.controllabs.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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