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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Christa</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thank you for your excellent references. They contain a
lot of very good information. They show the very broad influence stoves can have
on the lives of people using stoves, and the importance of the selected stoves
being able to provide what is wanted of them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"Stove Testing" seems to have gotten off on the wrong foot
many years ago, with "Efficiency" being based on the Water Boiling Test
"WBT". The fact that it was a flawed concept is evidenced by the numerous
changes that have been made to it over the years. The unreliability of past
tests is perhaps evidenced by the fact that there seems to be a reluctance to
bring forward their data in a transparent manner. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Given that the existing "Stove Testing Protocol" is open
to improvement, as is evidenced by the fact that they seem to be under review,
this is a good time "do things right." The five fundamental attributes
of a "stove" are:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Function </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Fuel Type </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Fuel Efficiency</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Health</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Safety</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>There are several "stove functions", such as cooking,
heating, and making char. There are applications where a stove
performing a combination of these basic functions would be
advantageous. While your major interest, and that of the stoves List seems
to be "Cooking Stoves", others may be interested in different stove
functions, or combinations of functions. Different Categories and sub categories
can be set up, so that performance of various stove systems within a given
sub-category could be made in a meaningful manner.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>One thing I think would be very helpful would be to test
the stoves over a range of power levels. With an electric stove, one can simply
"dial up" the desired power level, for boiling, simmering, or slow cooking.. A
biomass stove is capable of "power output control also, but its efficiency and
emissions are also likely to change at reduced power levels. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Having truly meaningful performance data for the stoves
would enable Aid Organizations and other customers or Promoters to
select stoves for how they would best fit into "their big picture."
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=stoves@foodandfuel.info href="mailto:stoves@foodandfuel.info">CHRISTA
ROTH</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 01, 2013 3:27
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Stove
Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Kevin, the link should work fine if you copy the whole line,
not only the blue part. otherwise it is all on the GIZ HERA cooking
energy compendium, (I hope this link appears all in blue when I send it,
otherwise cope the entire line into your browser)
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><A
href="https://energypedia.info/index.php/GIZ_HERA_Cooking_Energy_Compendium">https://energypedia.info/index.php/GIZ_HERA_Cooking_Energy_Compendium</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>and thus it deals with stoves for COOKING, though not only for biomass
fuels. It is intended to compile experiences from the field work of GIZ and
others to assist people that are not constantly out there in the field to
learn about realities of stove users.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I agree with Tom, that this list was intended for the discussion of
biomass COOKstoves, so that people are able to cook food in order to
survive, which is quite a vital need. And that is also what my day-to-day
job deals with. I don't have time for academic discussions. most of
the points you raise are mentioned in the first chapter of the compendium,
please take a moment to read about 'Global stove diversity' in the
chapter</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><A
href="https://energypedia.info/index.php/GIZ_HERA_Cooking_Energy_Compendium#Cooking_Energy_Technologies_and_Practices">https://energypedia.info/index.php/GIZ_HERA_Cooking_Energy_Compendium#Cooking_Energy_Technologies_and_Practices</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>regards Christa</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>Am 01.05.2013 um 07:57 schrieb "Kevin" <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>>:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
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bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Christa</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=stoves@foodandfuel.info
href="mailto:stoves@foodandfuel.info">CHRISTA ROTH</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:09
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [Stoves] Stove
Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Kevin, find a definition attempt on <A
href="https://energypedia.info/wiki/Improved_Cookstoves_">https://energypedia.info/wiki/Improved_Cookstoves_</A>–_What_is_it_all_about%3F
<DIV>it is a bit more specific than merriam-webster. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Unfortunately, when I went there, the page is
"under construction.'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Would you agree with the following:<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<H1
style="BACKGROUND-IMAGE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(170,170,170) 1px solid; TEXT-ALIGN: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.17em; LINE-HEIGHT: 30px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0px 0px 0.6em; WIDTH: auto; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; CLEAR: both; FONT-SIZE: 22px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; PADDING-TOP: 0.5em"><SPAN
id=What_is_a_stove.3F class=mw-headline>What is a stove?<BR></SPAN></H1>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px">The
term ‘stove’ refers to a device that generates heat from an energy carrier
and makes that heat available for the intended use in a specific
application.</DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><FONT
size=3><STRONG># I think this is a good "broad definition" for a stove.
However, it would, for example, also apply to a device that is more
typically called a "boiler." In line with the Stoves Site, I was hoping to
get a definition that was more restricted to Domestic or Residential
cooking and space heating.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><FONT
size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px">Cook
stoves are made to transfer the generated heat to food, with the purpose
to get it cooked and edible for human consumption. Thus ‘a stove’ features
the <B>combination of heat generation and heat transfer</B> to
a <U>cooking pot</U> if the food is cooked in a liquid, or
a <U>griddle, plancha</U> etc. if the food is baked on a hot
surface or roasted without liquid.</DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><FONT
size=3><STRONG># Efficiency of heat transfer is indeed very
important A stove can be designed to accomodate a pot on the
surface, a pot submerged within the stove, a 'two pot system", open flame
grilling, a grill or griddle where food is baked or fried directly on teh
stove top, where no pot is involved, etc. While a stove can be designed
for maximum heat transfer to teh pot, there are many "legitimate stove
designs" where the manufacturer has no control over heat transfer to the
food or pot. I would suggest that "stoves are made to provide an
opportunity for heat transfer to food, but it is up to the user in many
cases to employ a suitable pot, wind screen, convection shield, to
maximize heat transfer to the pot or food." Indeed teh Customer may
want a stove with lower heat transfer heat efficiency for convenience, and
may specifically want a "flat top stove", rather than a "submerged pot
stove", simply because of a concern for the outside of teh pot becoming
sooty. However, the Stove Designer may decide to offer a stove broviding
direct heating of the pot, to serve markets wanting such a stove.<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></STRONG></FONT><STRONG><FONT
size=3>Expressed differently, he may offer some designs that attempt to
maximize fuel utilization efficiency to sell into rthat market, and other
designs, of lesser heat transfer efficiency, to provide the Customer with
other wanted features.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><STRONG><FONT
size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><STRONG><FONT
size=3># Note also that stoves intended for Tropic Regions may not want
any shell loss from the stove, while in temperate or cool regions, heat
loss from the cooking stove can be a decided advantage. I feel we should
also include a "space heating function" in the general definition of
a stove. Clearly "heat loss from a stove shell" in areas where the warmth
is wanted should be included as an "efficiency bonus" to the stove, but if
teh same stove was used in teh tropics, where the "heat loss was not
welcomed', then it should be treated as a "Fuel efficiency
loss."</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><STRONG><FONT
size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><STRONG><FONT
size=3>Best wishes,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><STRONG><FONT
size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><STRONG><FONT
size=3>Kevin</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="Z-INDEX: auto; POSITION: static; TEXT-ALIGN: left; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); MARGIN: 0.4em 0px 0.5em; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><STRONG><FONT
size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Am 30.04.2013 um 18:50 schrieb Kevin <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>>:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear List</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Just what is a "stove?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I would suggest that it is important that we all
know what a "stove" is, when we attempt to determine the difference
between a "good stove" and a "poor stove.'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>When we ask Mr. Google, we get more than 7 million
hits. However, the most common definitions seem to be typified by the
one at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> <A
href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stove">http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stove</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>" 1<SPAN class=ssens><EM class=sn>a</EM><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><STRONG>:</STRONG><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>a portable or fixed apparatus
that burns fuel or uses electricity to provide heat (as for cooking or
heating)<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>At<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A> ,
the stated purpose of the site is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"<FONT face="Times New Roman">Our site is
dedicated to helping people develop better stoves for cooking with
biomass fuels in developing regions.</FONT><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>What about accepting the Merriam-Webster
definition for a "stove?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Would anyone have a better definition for a
"stove?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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